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Fanclub <=*=> The New Sith Order =*= Return of the Sith <=*=>... v.5

Discussion in 'EU Community' started by Teegirloo, Sep 3, 2012.

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  1. E. L.Knight

    E. L.Knight Jedi Master star 4

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    Dec 4, 2012

    I quite like this system. I assume it is the current one in use here?
     
  2. Darth Dreadwar

    Darth Dreadwar Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    Jan 26, 2010
    Something like it. There was some debate as to whether titles like "Sith Eraser" should be used instead, and we've seen a reintroduction of the old Death Knight/Shadow Knight/Dread Knight system at times.

    In addition, after the return of the Lord Cruor, there have been several Dark Lords, specialist titles according to our inclinations e.g. Dark Lord of the ancient Sith for me, but this was more for the Sith leadership, so there hasn't been much clarification otherwise.

    You are safe to assume something resembling the system I posted is in use, at least in terms of skill trees/prestige classes.

    Meyerm, darklordoftech, which path do you which to take? Warrior, Assassin or Sorcerer?
     
  3. darklordoftech

    darklordoftech Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Sep 30, 2012
    Sorcerer
     
  4. Darth Dreadwar

    Darth Dreadwar Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    Jan 26, 2010
    Eeeexcellent. So let it be written, so let it be done.

    A master shall be appointed to you in time. But you can start your ascendance now. Do you wish to join me in the library of Veeshas Tuwan, my friend, and thereby become my apprentice until the inevitable and doubtless close day that you achieve Mastery?
     
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  5. darklordoftech

    darklordoftech Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Sep 30, 2012
    Yes. I pledge myself to your teachings, Master Dreadwar.
     
  6. Darth Dreadwar

    Darth Dreadwar Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    Jan 26, 2010
    Good, good. Riiise, my friend.

    I shall not insult you by asking you to recite the Code of the Sith, as is tradition. [face_laugh] Instead, I shall ask that you write your own Code, as befits your personal outlook and philosophy, akin to the Creed of Ruin.

    And then, in time, your first trial shall begin. I look forward to the Creed of ... ah yes, that reminds me... you will need a name, as Shas Dovos became Warb Null, for 'Creed of darklordoftech' is lacking a certain... pizzazz. :p You need not think too deeply on it, for you will claim a new Darth name upon your ascent to Lordship.

    Until then, I must retire to my chambers.
     
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  7. darklordoftech

    darklordoftech Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Sep 30, 2012
    The True Sith being the Rakata would have been better than what we got imho. It was already established that the Rakata used the dark side and interacted with the Sith species and the Adas incident would set up a Sith-Rakata rivalry (hence the spirits, Revan, and Malak trying to stop the Rakata.
     
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  8. Darth Dreadwar

    Darth Dreadwar Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    Jan 26, 2010
    I disliked any interpretation that the true Sith were anything but, you know, the true Sith. It was obvious what Obsidian was getting at - the Sith is now a belief, revived within Republic/Jedi dissidents, but it didn't used to be, it was a species and an Empire.

    "More Jedi tricks?" "No, not Jedi. Not Jedi at all."

    If anything, the ancient pre-Republic dark siders who ruled the galaxy and enslaved other races and combined the Force with technology and had a Force draining artifact... Given my knowledge of TOTJ Companion at the time, which had set up the pre-Dark Jedi Sith species as exactly that, I was very much expecting the Sith species to be the answer to the mystery in KOTOR, and was very disappointed when Bioware invented their own precursor race.

    Now, however, things like the Killik Sith Lord and a stronger Sith-Rakata connection than was ever implied by Evil Never Dies (Raspir, the Infernal Council, Soa), means I can have my old interpretation back. Yes, the true Sith are the Infinite Empire. No, the Infinite Empire was not ruled by the Rakata. The cause for rivalry would still be firmly established, as the True Sith are Chaotic Evil Nihiluses who want to destroy the galaxy, and the Old Sith (post-marriage with the Jedi ideals, albeit Dark Jedi) are Ordered Evil who want to rule it.
     
  9. Sinrebirth

    Sinrebirth Mod-Emperor of the EUC, Lit, RPF and SWC star 9 Staff Member Manager

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    Nov 15, 2004
    Lord Dreadwar, have you delved into Dawn of the Jedi and the establishment of the Rakata by the Kwa, and then the subsequent fact that the war between the Kwa and Gree was incited by Abeloth, the eponymous Mother that the Nightsisters obsess so much over.

    What with the peculiar nature of Dathomir I have long theorised that Abeloth's world was once upon here, surrounded by black holes before her untimely escape circa 30,000 BBY.


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  10. Darth Dreadwar

    Darth Dreadwar Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    Jan 26, 2010
    *bows* Welcome back, Lord Insipid. Say, would you be willing to take on a new apprentice for around a month? Meyerm and E. L.Knight would be great... assets... but in this time of inactivity there's all too few Sith Masters.

    I have indeed. Such a shame it's incomplete, though.

    I figure the Rakata were established by the Kwa about as much as the Sith were established by the Rakata (in the non-Infinite Sith interpretation), with the Sith coming later to an already dark aligned species and playing the role of the Dark Jedi Exiles.

    And I prefer to think the Kwa ripped wounds in the Force and hyperspace that allowed for a sort of gap or gate to Abeloth's prison on her original homeworld (which in my headcanon is called Vitae, the opposite of Mortis), allowing her to break free.

    In my mind, Celestial (rather like the term Sith) refers to both a species and an ideology, or perhaps more correctly, state of being. Evolving many millions of years ago, they were originally a starfish shaped species of arthropods obsessed with improving themselves beyond baseline sapience. Like any naturally evolving sapient species without influence from other godlike/sufficiently advanced civilisation, they didn't develop FTL before they (as is likely to happen in RL) developed mind uploading and AI. Initially, they transcended themselves to vast machines in a proces similar to entechment. While the baseline organic species was wiped out by a supernova, what they had become (the Silentium) was not. But their advancement did not stop at immortal machine bodies; they developed FTL, and ultimately some of them even discovered how to ascend into the Force itself, similar to sublimation in Iain Banks' Culture novels.

    They formed an intergalactic empire. It doesn't really matter which galaxy they originally evolved in, only that they did have a presence in both the YZ galaxy and GFFA. But the term Celestial should be understood to not only apply to the starfish species that ascended, but any Force entitites of godlike advancement - so other individuals or races that ascended, or perhaps even entities that never were organic in origin, but rather sapient nexuses or Forceful incarnations to begin with (like Sel Makor). And in truth it's something of a catch-all title, because not all of these have much to do with each other, or much in common. The 'immortal gods of the Sith,' the apocalyptic deities the Knell of Muspilli were summoning, Force demons, the Terror from Beyond, and of course Abeloth, can be understood to be Celestials under one definition (as could the Silentium and the Abominor, if you're talking about one step in the evolution from the starfish species to Force ascension), yet they're all aligned against those that are later dubbed Architects in the great True Sith War. The Kwa and Gree are servitor races of the Architects, but the former incur the Architects' anger through their actions on Dathomir, which free the Mother, who turns the Kwa and Gree against each other to rob the Celestials of their allies. This is all nicely timed with 'Darth Gorog' Joining the Killiks, similarly depriving the Celestials of their workforce and armies and indeed turning them into an army for the forces of the dark side, forcing the Celestials to empty the Killik nests, driving them into the Unknown Regions and the Killik Sith Lord to Sarafur in order to end his control over them.

    The conflict (which I like to call the Force Wars, with the Force War of Tython being a sort of baby conflicts, just as the Je'daii are sort of the ideological baby of the Celestials) in a sense results in the vanquishing of both sides, nor is it as simple as light vs dark. If you had to give labels to each side, you'd say it's the forces of order and balance (at least in their conception of it, which is more Je'daii - and IMO accurate - than the Jedi view) against the forces of chaos, entropy and unbalanced, unrestrained destruction. So counting things like the Son, there's dark siders on both sides, but the True Sith side is a Nihilus-meets-Rhandite force hungering for the destruction of all life, so comparatively much worse.

    By war's end, you have three Celestials who've partially descended as anchorites to maintain 'the balance' (in their conception of it, which is more Je'daii than Jedi) in the Mortis monolith, who created the Tho Yor monolith ships to 'pass the torch' so to speak to the newer races and the Precursors or Cthol (the descendants of the Celestials/Old Ones). On the other side of things, you have Abeloth imprisoned, the immortal gods of the Sith/Darths of the Rakata presumably wiped out, leaving only remnants of the Sith Infinite Empire in the form of warring factions of Rakata and Sith (e.g. those that invaded Korriban vs Soa and his Infernal Council of Sith), primitive Sith on Korriban under Adas, Sorcerers of Rhand, Cronese Sith, Alsakan Sith, etc. The old servitor races of each side (Kwa, Gree, Rakata, Killiks) are all laid low to varying degrees, setting the stage for the new races to emerge and forge their own destiny.
     
  11. Sinrebirth

    Sinrebirth Mod-Emperor of the EUC, Lit, RPF and SWC star 9 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Nov 15, 2004
    I prefer to follow the more strict interpretation of events, that the Rakata met the Kwa, were elevated, and so forth. TOR gives us 'other' Force Wars which gives us the plural, and the kernel for the Jedi Order is from DotJ.

    What I do like to consider is that the Rakata did indeed attempt to coerce Abeloth, but with their own anti-Mother, the creature Jaden encountered in the Unknown Regions.

    Timeline wise we can only see that the Sith became engaged with the Killiks circa 30,000 BBY, possibly as a result of them being the cause of a greater war when the Killik Sith Lord made it to Alsakan from his exile/journey from Korriban. This kicks off the release of Abeloth, the disintegration of the Celestial organisation, the Sharu advancing on Aargau and then isolating themselves, and Abeloth ending the era sealed in the Maw but with the Rakata then on top. Two millennia later they hit the Sith worlds, only to be co-opted by them, as the original source of the opportunity which saw them seize control - perhaps the Sith saw the landscape of the galaxy and then puppeted the conflict between the Rakata and Celestials with the knowledge that they could dominate the Rakata but not the Celestials? Mother escapes as an incidental of the Grand Plan (as much as she does as an incidental to what Sidious did)...

    It's a matter of perception. If the Sith knew about the greater galaxy and knew about the Celestials and Rakata, then they knew how to best to break the Celestials; by Joining with the Killiks and shattering their strength.


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  12. Darth Dreadwar

    Darth Dreadwar Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    Jan 26, 2010
    Sinrebirth Edited my last post to ask you a question BTW. ;) And what of your thoughts on a new RPG?

    I think the stricter interpretation loses some of the cohesiveness or neatness of moving the Sith co-opting the Rakata (and overall having much greater influence in galactic affairs) a few thousand years earlier. It'd make more sense of what TOTJ Companion tells us about the Sith spreading across space in pre-Dark Jedi days, and other races and individuals taking on the title Sith as dark siders, as well as make things like the Killik Sith Lord, and thus breaking Celestial power, a deliberate move in a vast conflict between Celestial and Sith rather than an accident with unintended consequences.

    It serves to cement the Sith as the ultimate threat, as well; just as you don't like the idea of a random cult attaining galactic supremacy for thousands of years when Palpatine managed barely decades, I don't like the idea of random amphibians ruling the galaxy for an even greater stretch of time in comparison. The stricter interpretation has been chipped away by TOR, anyway, with Soa ruling from Korriban and being allied with Sith who were not loyal to Adas. It's all very indicative of the Infinite Sith Empire splintering into different warring factions (perhaps as a result of the Star Forge). Sure, a degenerated Sith remnant people on Korriban might have been unified by Adas, and a certain faction of Rakata might have taught Adas how to build a holocron and tried to conquer Korriban (not so different from our Cronese Sith Daritha Xim, who was actually successful) but there's a Sith holocron predating Adas' by 70,000+ years anyway.

    Edit: And in this interpretation, the Killiks invading Korriban is the Celestials attacking their enemies in the great Force Wars between the True Sith and their Infinite Empire, and the Celestials. This would seem to be a stupid move given that the Sith are Force-users, but less so if you consider the Ones were currently controlling and empowering them. So perhaps some sort of psychic battle for control that the Ones never expected immortal god of the Sith, Darth Gorog, to win[​IMG].

    And the links between the Mother and the Mother Machine are interesting as well. One seemed to be specifically focused on creating Force sensitive species for use as servants, the other on creating species in general - although her claims are suspect. They're probably pretty much the same thing, just like there were multiple Star Forges. I once hypothesised they were both enteched avatars[​IMG] of Abeloth that were sort of severed from Abeloth's main consciousness after she was imprisoned (rather like Malkuth disconnecting from Insipid!), but I hated the idea the instant I came up with it. :p
     
  13. Sinrebirth

    Sinrebirth Mod-Emperor of the EUC, Lit, RPF and SWC star 9 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Nov 15, 2004
    *smiles softly*

    A discourse on the history of the ancients is always refreshing. And yes, I, as Dark Lord, can take an apprentice. An RPG would also be refreshing. Do you have a setting in mind? (Says he who always has wheels turning).

    As to the rest...

    I suppose there is the point of whether said Sith from 100,000 BBY were static. The lack of Sith references predating 30,000 BBY hurts somewhat, and what with the Monolith's collecting primitive species in 35,000 BBY it implies that the Sith had arguably degenerated to a certain extent then. Killik Sith Lord arises in 30,000 BBY, the Atlas tells us that.

    We also know that the Kwa, Killik and Gree groups were Celestial vassals. Sharu were threatened, Columni went home in 100,000 BBY.

    While the sources we have could argue for something True Sith pre-35,000 BBY, I think it is strained to suggest it is still around in 30,000 BBY in the same incarnation as a static structure and force.

    *thinks aloud*

    I *could* see the Sith being dethroned by the Celestials (who taught the Kwa about Holocrons so likely taught the 100,000 BBY Sith), perhaps with an intervening Abeloth emergence, and then spending millennia conniving to take down the Celestials and allowing their greater culture to fall into primitivism to avoid being taken apart by the Celestials (as the Sharu did), but a 'core' of Sith keeping their Order intact. The reality being that the Rakata simply brought Holocrons back to the Sith as a large. These Sith-behind-the-Sith take the reins to stop the Killiks when the Celestials send them to Korriban in reprisal for triggering the weakening of their design by unleashing the Rakata and starting a war, and in further reprisal for the seizure of the Killik workforce by Darth Gorog, and again step in to seize control of the Sith when the Rakata arrive, turning against one of their own, Adas, when he elevates himself above the others as a God.

    In essence they rule the Rakatan Infinite Empire because they *control* it. They are shadow rulers, rumoured but unknown, waiting for a more malleable, more useful, more inventive group to replace the Rakatan, all the time managing them so their Force sensitivity is declining, to make them less and less of a threat to them when the Sith rule openly - a millennia long version of Palpatine's seizure of the Republic. Then, when humanity has percolated enough under the Rakata yoke, they unleash their trump card; a bioweapon which kills the Rakata, strips them of their Force sensitivity entirely, masked as a plague, and then they seize control of the Tion and Alsakan, more shadowed Sith behind the throne. Strictly speaking these Sith rule Korriban when the Dark Jedi arrive and disrupt the Grand Design, and seize Sith Space. But the Infinite Sith long grew beyond Sith Space and live through Alsakan and so on.


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  14. Darth Dreadwar

    Darth Dreadwar Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    Jan 26, 2010
    *smiles hardly, even though there is no such thing, because he is compelled to smile in the opposite way in which the Lord Insipid smiles, because Dreadwar is prideful and must stand out amongst his fellow Dark Lords*

    Well, Meyerm and E. L.Knight are our newest official members and are without a master. I have no doubt either will prosper greatly under your teachings, My Lord.

    As for the RPG, I'm tempted to have a small, low-key Sith Trials kind of game[​IMG] taking place ~150 ABY. The idea being the Dominion of Darkness, Ancient Sith Empire remnants, Acolytes and Obscurum have all unified into the New Sith Order, a forebear to the Light Watch from Knights of the Last Republic. Not really much of a great overarching plot or any other factions, just make it up as we go, good old fashioned Sith training, missions and internal power struggles. One takes note that we're safe to do what we want with the galaxy, now that Legends material doesn't cover beyond 138 ABY. [face_skull]

    Or...

    Straying from the ABYVerse, a Game of Thrones style epic set in the Golden Age of the Sith around 5,150 BBY, with character potential ranging from the Crucible (raiding outside the Caldera and maintaining the Sith's tribute/colonal[​IMG] based Empire), to canon Sith Lords like Ragnos and Simus, to Tapani exiles, undead priests, Massassi warlords...

    Re. ancient Sith history: I don't think the lack of explicit pre-30,000 BBY references harms much. Pre-Republic history in general is very murky, in-universe and out-, to the extent that even that which we know as some of the most fleshed out and detailed elements - such as the Infinite Empire - is completely unknown to the galaxy by 4,000 BBY. Besides, between TOTJ and TOTJ Companion having the Sith rule the galaxy with the implication it's long before the Republic and Jedi came along, TOTJ Companion having the pre-Dark Jedi Sith expand throughout the galaxy and become a notorious evil the name of which other races and individuals took (so nothing to do with post-Dark Jedi hybridisation/name changing, here), and both 100,000 and 30,000 year old holocrons, I'd say there's more than enough evidence of a substantially developed and advanced <30,000 BBY Sith civilisation dominating the galaxy.

    I think the True Sith Empire formed on Korriban around 100,000 BBY and expanded thence, reaching its first apex sometime before 45,000 BBY. We know the Zhell and Taung were fighting around this time (between 200,000 and 90,000 BBY), so I suggest the Sith reached as far as Coruscant and influenced the Zhell culture (pyramids, mummification, possible Sith chants). The Sith's power wanes over the millennia as they fight the Celestials, transforming into the Infinite Empire with the Rakata as their Builders, with yes, as you say, the Sith ruling things without holding mundane political power.

    I don't conceive of red-skinned sorcerers secretly puppeteering the Rakata, though, but rather power lying in the hands of the "immortal gods of the Sith." This precludes the need for Celestials to teach the Sith about holocrons, since the Sith gods here are Celestials if you're defining it to mean any being who 'ascends' to become an entity like Abeloth (or something like Darth Nihilus, of somewhat greater stature in the Force). The 'Force demons,' 'immortal gods of the Sith' and the 'apocalyptic deities beyond the Gap' would then be the same thing: the True Sith Darths of the Rakata.

    The Sith are nonetheless getting their backsides handed to them by the Celestials, until the Rakata become their vassal and the Star Forge is constructed. The Sith then have a second apex, prompting the Celestials to strike at Korriban with their Killik armies, only for the Darth Gorog to co-opt them. The war is then even enough for both sides to essentially destroy the other, leaving only infighting remnants, with some Rakata turning against the Sith and the Rakata aligned with them, hence the imprisonment of Soa and the Infernal Council, and the foiled invasion of Korriban, prompting the Sith to unleash an alchemically engineered plague. I would see Alsakan and the Tion (and Arbra, Arkania, Krayiss and Malachor) as less being seized/colonised in this time period and more leftover Sith strongholds from a <30,000 BBY galaxy-dominating Empire, cemented by Alsakan already being the home of Darth Gorog in 30,000 BBY.

    Also, the exact date and cause of the Sharu degeneration is not entirely set in stone (conflicting info), with the Celestials being the "possible" cause. I prefer to interpret the Sharu and the Kwa as degenerating themselves so as to make them less tasty looking to the planet-draining ancient True Sith Kreia was referring to.
     
  15. JarJarAbrams

    JarJarAbrams Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    Jan 24, 2015
    You have forgotten to work Waru into your elaborate Sith theology, young man.
     
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  16. Darth Dreadwar

    Darth Dreadwar Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    Jan 26, 2010
    Oh, it's in my notes offline. ;)

    I view Waru's home universe and Otherspace as one of the same, Otherspace likely being created by the Celestials to imprison certain cosmic evils (apocalyptic deities from beyond the Gap? Force demons? Immortal gods of the Sith such as Krath and Typhojem?); it is far too similar to Abeloth's prison in the Maw, and the hyperspace disturbances in the Unknown Regions used to presumably curb Mnggal-mnggal incursions or hedge in the Rakata, to be a coincidence. This is furthermore evidenced by the links between the Celestials/Ones, and "Those that Dwell Beyond the Veil" of the Aing Tii in FOTJ.

    A certain number of Celestials remain behind in the Kathol sector (the Old Ones) as guardians, becoming the Precursors/Cthol. Otherspace can still be accessed through the Gree hypergate on Asation, and through the Kathol launch gates, and indeed the former is accessed to free the Terror from Beyond in TOR. One of the ancient ancient Sith I speak of comes to Kathol and conquers the Precursors around 11,000 BBY, and causes the Kathol Rift Disaster in a (failed) bid to destroy all the launch gates and free said apocalyptic deities; he only succeeds in destroying one before being defeated by Halbret, but it's enough to flip the Charr Ontee into Otherspace where they become the Charon.

    Waru is just of a species native to the region of space that the Celestials sealed off and warped into Otherspace. What of his anti-Force, then? Well, consider that there is no such thing as truly severing one from the Force - one can merely force (ha) another into 'frequency,' so to speak, as what happened to the Vong. Consider that Kreia planned on destroying the Force through opening a wound greater than Malachor - I believe the idea is, here, that she was planning on turning the entire galaxy into a wound in the Force, which would have killed any Force users who couldn't adapt like the Exile. That said, the Exile and Nihilus - wounds both - still touch the Force in a twisted manner through feeding off deaths, just as the Vong, cut off in a somewhat different manner, still exist in the Force in a way (Vongsense) and there are examples of some becoming Force users (Onimi, Vongerella). Even if Kreia had succeeded in turning the galaxy into a wound, it stands to reason that a perversion of the Force could then still be accessed through feeding off others a la Exile/Nihilus and becoming a wound onself. I therefore hypothesise that Otherspace is like this - entirely a wound where the Force can only be accessed in aforementioned warped manner, and it's this that Waru - who, like the Exile and Nihilus, feeds on life force - utilises, and that Luke dubs the 'anti-Force.'
     
  17. darklordoftech

    darklordoftech Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Sep 30, 2012
    What did Abeloth and the True Sith think of each other?
     
  18. E. L.Knight

    E. L.Knight Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 4, 2012
    I think I would like it if you took me as your apprentice Lord Insipid. I remember you from my first time here, and you are a true Master worthy of respect.
     
  19. Darth Dreadwar

    Darth Dreadwar Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    Jan 26, 2010
    Well, in my conception they are, in a sense, one and the same.

    It is Jacen's implication that to bathe in the Pool and achieve that degree of knowledge and power is to become a Celestial. Abeloth is thus a Celestial under that definition, but not aligned with the Architects/Ones, and not of the original Celestial race. Perhaps, to differentiate the 'good' (or rather 'less bad') Celestials who observed the balance - those whose remnant are The Ones of Mortis and the Kathol - from the destructive/entropic/imbalanced Celestials, the labels 'Architect' and 'Force demon' gain distinct definition?

    But, as per TOTJ Companion, the term Sith was taken by other races and beings who embraced their ideology even in this early era, so Abeloth, being a 'Chaotic Evil' force opposed to the ordered balance between light and dark espoused by the Architects, could be considered Sith, even if her origins do not lie in True Sith blood. The similarities between Abeloth, the Sorcerers of Rhand and Darth Nihilus are telling. So, she's of the same order of being, and power, as the Darths, and indeed may have been counted among their number, as 'immortal gods of the Sith.' So there's some overlap between True Sith and Celestial, in the sense that there's various True Sith Lords (e.g. the Killik Sith Lord 'Darth Gorog,' Typhojem and Krath) who became incredibly powerful Force entities akin to Nihilus or Abeloth, and this sort of apotheosis is also the measure by which we can term beings 'Celestials.'

    The precise nature of the power structure of this Infinite Sith Empire is debatable, although I previously speculated that the title Sith'ari preceded Adas. This shouldn't be seen to diminish the significance of Adas claiming it, as I see Sith'ari as essentially being equivalent to the word God with a capital 'g,' so even if the foremost of the Darths bore the title, a Sith King claiming to be God is still incredibly important in terms of its impact on future Sith history. But I don't think the precise details of power structure, e.g. if Abeloth was in any way subservient to Sith Lords, or whether there was a singular ruler of the True Sith 'pantheon,' is particularly relevant. I would view these apocalyptic deities as being rather like the Ruinous Powers in Warhammer 40k, with very little in the way of the kinds of mundane political structure we see in the 'Ordered Evil' Sith Empires of Dark Jedi descent.

    And I always take care when drafting fanon history like this to ensure it doesn't overshadow later, canonical history and characters (e.g. the Jen'ari of Pall's lineage, or of course Palpatine himself). The neat thing is you can always interpret it one way or the other; you can say Abeloth and Darth Nihilus are dark side gods of nonpareil power genuinely beyond mortal ken, or you can say, "Oh, wait, Abeloth is really just a viral intelligence with delusions of grandeur who got beat with a lightsaber like anything else, and Nihilus is a mindless hungry beast who commited psychic suicide in an idiotic inability to drain a single Jedi."
     
  20. Sinrebirth

    Sinrebirth Mod-Emperor of the EUC, Lit, RPF and SWC star 9 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Nov 15, 2004
    You do not become my apprentice by default, my friend. You must *prove* yourself to me.

    Give me your opinion on the reasons why Darth Sidious ultimately failed in his conquest of the galaxy, and also a short discourse on which apprentice you consider a respectable blueprint for the training of the Sith Order.

    You have one week from today.

    *smiles wanly, before turning to the Loremaster Dreadwar*

    The crux of your historical agenda is none too dissimilar to that of mine with the Pius Dea Crusades and the Alsakan Conflicts; in a galaxy with such a rich history of the Sith, there should not be any organisation which does better than them, or comes across as more successful, because, fundamentally, there obviously would not.

    A hundred thousand year old Sith agenda implies a grand design greater than any fleeting narrative imposed by any of the major species. The Columni have a mere footnote in 100,000 BBY, and the Celestials themselves do not have references prior to 35,000 BBY.

    This thinking, I approve of.

    However, there is some mileage on how such a thing can be interpreted.

    What occurred within the Kathol Rift, a Celestial construct, does indeed sound like the events of the Vultar Cataclysm, the Jedi Civil War or the Apocalypse; the Sith interfering in ancient technology they did not entirely understand and a cataclysm occurring as a matter of eventuality. Dark Lord Pall himself refers to the Dark Jedi making use of the Star Forge in the Hundred Year Darkness, albeit with difficulty what with his sad corruption by the Light.

    I could refer to the Soulsaber and the issues around this, similarly. I would invite you to tell me your thoughts on such a thing.


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  21. Darth Dreadwar

    Darth Dreadwar Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    Jan 26, 2010
    darklordoftech A reminder, my friend, that you are tasked with creating your own Code of the Sith, and a new name by which we may call you. Only then can your apprenticeship begin.

    *Dreadwar stands from his golden throne to walk with the Lord of Betrayal Sinrebirth through his vast library, gesturing to the many tomes around him as he talks*

    Indeed, long have we shared the same conceptions regarding our forebears' history, My Lord. And there is room for interpretation, as you say, according to individual preference on the cohesiveness and eminence of ancient Sith history. After all, we must keep content those who are bereft of true awareness of the vast tapestry that is our heritage.

    And I find that many of these artifacts are linked not only through that common theme you mention, but through the fact that they seem specifically aligned with self-destructive hunger and a force of untrammelled entropy beyond even the desires of the typical Sith. The Star Forge, hungering for life and twisting its users against each other, the Darkstaff, ditto, the Soulsaber, the Taurannik Codex... I'm willing to attribute all three to the First Sith. It being 20,000 BBY, by this time mere scattered remnants of the First Sith remain, but they continue to harry the free races of the galaxy, contributing to the legend of Sith bogeymen. At this current time, Sith presence is primarily concentrated in the Stygian Caldera, which is beset by constant civil war, and due to prior immoderate use of Nihilus planet eating - the very same excesses that Kreia makes mention of that thus resulted in great caution surrounding the technique - Sith populations here have been wiped out, resulting in degeneration into primitivism and only Korriban and Ziost surviving.

    Outside the Caldera, Sith activity is concentrated mostly on Alsakan, the Nihil Retreat and perhaps the Cloak of the Sith, but there are other pockets: Ambria, Arbra, Arkania, Desevro, Krayiss II, Malachor V, Onderon/Dxun and the Tascollan Nebula (there's something fishy with that star which Valik Kodank must have known about if she fled there after the GHW to move a Sith temple into it). There's also Sith imprisoned on Belsavis and in the Rakatan Archipelago. To get back to the Soulsaber, we have a First Sith fighting Jedi on Pamorjal, who's defeated. A thousand years later, we have the fallen Jedi Humat being influenced by old Sith secrets (perhaps found in the Sith-inspired Zhell ice crypts?) to create the soul stealer artifact, guarded by rather suspiciously Sithly reanimated skeletons.

    Later still, the Alsakan Conflicts kick off, and we get the Sith Lord Contispex and the Pius Dea. It is possible both the launch gate disaster and Vultar Cataclysm are not actually accidental, but rather attempts to release some evil sealed in Otherspace, akin to the destruction of Centerpoint releasing Abeloth.

    A few other things. Bataal Bandu can be of First Sith descent. Also, one notes certain similarities between the dubiously canonical Ku'ar Danar's monolith on Nilrebmah XIII with the pyramidal prison of Rur on Garn, but more striking still, the similarity between Danar moving a planet from orbit with the Force yet it backfiring and killing all of the population including himself, leaving him a disembodied spirit, and Valik Kodank, who tried and failed to move a temple from orbit into a sun and also killed herself and others in the process. Speaking of Danar, I see him as being a Jedi who stumbled across First Sith teachings on Malachor V, paving the way to Korriban (the Star Map of which thus led him to the Star Forge), and who thus instigated the Hundred Year Darkness and pulled the strings of the war from behind the scenes. It'd be a way to explain the otherwise absurd coincidence of the Exiles stumblong upon Korriban, usage of the Star Forge as well as place responsibility for the Schism away from someone so corrupted by the weakness of the light as Ajunta Pall. ;)
     
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  22. Sinrebirth

    Sinrebirth Mod-Emperor of the EUC, Lit, RPF and SWC star 9 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Nov 15, 2004
    I have had similar thoughts to Danar, who most certainly became a Sith Lord in my eyes. That a Sith Lord was behind the Second, Third and Fourth Schisms does make the first rather suspect.

    Perhaps Darth Ruin should be considered an Infinite Sith by his role in the Fourth Schism... And Xendor as the Dark Underlord, one does wonder. Especially when Xendor met the Celestials it is a curious point.

    Interestingly, it could be argued that the role of 'Infinite Sith' comes to those Sith who perpetuate the Order when it has been defeated. A so called Shadow Council, perhaps, including Marka Ragnos, the only recorded gathering of which includes the four Sith Spirits on Yavin 4, or the Conclave between Sidious and Ragnos?

    Perhaps instead the amulets between Kun and Droma summoned one of them? Perhaps Sith spirits are inducted into the same Order when they arrive?


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  23. Darth Dreadwar

    Darth Dreadwar Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    Jan 26, 2010
    [face_hypnotized] We think far too alike, Lord Insipid.

    Of course I always tied such things to the ABYVerse ASE in my fanon, not out of any particlar love for my OCs (although I hesitate to call them characters, as they're more just placeholders that the theory demands), e.g. Darth Nemesis, but only recognising that some 'immortal god of the Sith' must play the role, although perhaps giving the role to your Darth Gorog works better.

    But yes, I always envisioned the Infinite Sith as being laid low following the Celestial War and from thence forth assuming the role as puppeteers, ensuring their teachings survive even after the fall of their Empire. Thus they train Sith in academies such as the Trayus and libraries such as Veeshas Tuwan, and launch several attempts to restore Sith rule over the galaxy, from Sith Lord Darth Xim and his Empire, Sith Lord Contispex and the Pius Dea Crusades to Sith Lord Ku'ar Danar instigating the Second Great Schism. The Jen'ari of the Old Sith Empire holds the singular position of mundane political authority, but it is the Shadow Council - the Darth cult of Infinite Sith lineage - that rules from behind the scenes, and it is the Shadow Council whose immortal bodies sleep in stone in the Great Temple (not tomb) on Korriban. So while Dark Lords Pall and Hord reign from Ziost, Darth Andeddu resides on mortuary Korriban in simultaneity, acting as a sort of Cthulhu high priest/intermediary figure to the Great Old Ones of the Infinite Sith.

    After the GHW, the Darth Council takes the reins, resurrecting Marka Ragnos from beyond the grave to create the amulet message, much as they would later resurrect Palpatine and hold council with him, and bidding Nadd to corrupt Kun. In fact... hmm... could the Sorcerers of Rhand be the Infinite Sith, hiding in the Unknown Regions (as they should, not Dromund Kaas?) I think there'd have to be some cohesion to all of these pockets, something or someone the Alsakan Sith, the Pius Dea Sith, the efforts to conquer the Kathol, the dissidents of the Third Great Schism et al have all been answerable to - the last surviving immortal god(s) of the Sith.

    My speculation on mechanisms of immortality is that both achieving it (e.g. sundering one's spirit from one's body to bind it to a temple, or even greater, become a Force entity a la Abeloth without) and resurrection if one's spirit is vanquished requires fuel in the form of drained Force energy[​IMG], e.g. Kun draining the Massassi, Vitiate's spirit reviving from its state of impotence through the destructive energies of the fighting on Yavin or Andeddu draining Gerlun to resurrect his corpse. The idea being the more souls/life force you consume, the more you can do with it, which is why Vitiate's immortality, having been powered through the consumption of 8,000 powerful Sith Lords, is far greater than a barely cognizant, tortured echo of a ghost haunting a tomb.

    In a sense, 'ascended' entities of supposed deific stature like Abeloth aren't really much different. Instead of Nihilus, forced to constantly feed on the living to support his existence, or a one-time mass drain like Vitiate, Abeloth (and indeed perhaps all Celestials, which would subvert their 'ascension' from something like Stargate into a darker thing, an interpretation Zorrixor made a good case for in the old FOTJ thread) is delving into 'the stream' of life energy, through flow walking/mind drinking, and 'drinking of the life stream' (compare to the ta-ree of the Kathol), which is symbolised by drinking of the Font beyond shadows. So essentially she is consuming the life energy of that which has become one with the 'stream'/Force, rather than when it existes as a discrete soul.

    Now then, what if the remnants of the Infinite Sith lurk in the Nihil Retreat, hedged away by the hyperspace disturbances the Celestials created, the true apocalyptic threat that Revan wished to unite the galaxy against - the true True Sith? What if Vitiate is assigned the deserved role of pawn, or perhaps as rival, to the Shadow Council? Could Vitiate's aim to kill trillions in a sacrificial ritual be an attempt to revive an immortal god of the Sith, or free it from its Celestial prison 'beyond the Veil?' Or... could Vitiate be rescued as a character by being an Infinite Sith himself, and far older than the Dark Council thinks he is? Embodying himself as, or possessing, some random child would make sense of the fact he has black eyes and immense Force power beyond anything what we've seen for someone so young. Kind of like an Antichrist possessed by/being the incarnation of Satan? It'd make more sense as to why he buried all knowledge of his childhood.

    But the Infinite Sith endure, regardless of Vitiate's Empire's relation to them, and perhaps revive the Sith through Ruin and the Dark Underlord as you suggest, and try and ensure the Sith's survival through resurrecting Palpatine, and of course the attempted resurrection of Ragnos and the efforts of Sorcerer of Rhand/Infinite Sith 'descendant' Cronal as well.
     
  24. JarJarAbrams

    JarJarAbrams Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    Jan 24, 2015
    I'd like to pledge my loyalty to the Lords of the Sith, but there's a question I have to ask:

    Why are the Sith so racist? I dunno why, but every Sith government seems to be racist against non-humans. I think this is really sad, the only flaw in the Sith, and I wonder why? What's the connection between the Sith and racism?

    Can a noble Gungan, like my good self, join the Sith?
     
  25. Sinrebirth

    Sinrebirth Mod-Emperor of the EUC, Lit, RPF and SWC star 9 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Nov 15, 2004
    I personally consider that Lord Sidious was not racist, not was Lord Vitiate. But it served their purposes to elevate one group above another as a method of dividing their opponents.

    Lord Vitiate was not opposed to possessing a human, and Sidious made Thrawn a Grand Admiral. It made sense to pick humanity over nonhumans for Sidious as they held the power he wanted in the Core.

    Sith is a belief, and as such it can encompass all races. Lord Krayt saw no need to distinguish between race, thus his inner circle including a Chagrian, Nagai, Twi'lek and Devaronian.

    On that note, I assume each of us consider Mas Amedda as Wyyyrlok I? It's a harmless idea, methinks.


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