The Official "Chosen One" / Prophecy discussion thread

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(my added emphasis)

As far as the Dark Lord book (so, EU I guess...) is concerned, he doesn't believe that he went against the prophesy of the Chosen One. He entertains the thought of, "I was the Chosen One, I went to the dark side:- thus all the Jedi should have followed me to the dark side - I was the only one capable of being in the right." He's fantastically arrogant

He believes the prophesy, so he believes that he's infallible in his actions, as every action he takes is, in his mind, a part of him fulfilling his destiny. At least, that's his mentality once he goes dark side.

"If I did this, it's part of what I was meant to do - why can't people accept that!? They were wrong, I was right. I'm the goddamn chosen one"

More interestingly however, Palpatine still considers him to be the Chosen One, he just just has a vastly different interpretation of that prophesy than the Jedi.

Palpatine's thoughts:

He recalled thinking: What if Anakin should die?
How many years would he have had to had search for an apprentice even half as powerful in the Force, let alone one created by the Force itself to restore balance, by allowing the dark side to percolate fully to the surface after a millennium of being stifled?

(my own emphasis)

 

Some have said that they do not believe that the Jedi likely did not talk to Anakin much at all about being the Chosen One. And frankly that is what I have come to believe, and I base this on something Obi-Wan said to Yoda and Mace in AOTC.

Obi-Wan said to them, "His abilities have made him arrogant" Obi-Wan even said to them that he did not feel Anakin was ready for the assignment that had been given to him.

So I believe of all people, Obi-Wan was the main person, of course being his Master who would talk to Anakin much about being the Chosen One, because he certainly feel that Anakin would become even more arrogant.

The real question then, is how much did Obi-Wan talk to Anakin about being the Chosen One?? At one time, I had come to believe that the Jedi Council really did not understand the prophecy, so this is why they could not help Anakin in this regard. But I think we know that this was not the case, particularly when it came to Yoda and Mace, who I do really believe understood it. So I then thought, Obi-Wan did not understand its meaning. But with his relationship with Yoda and Mace, and him training the one believed to be the Chosen One, then they most likely explained to him what they knew about its meaning. And I certainly believed this when after Obi-Wan struck down Anakin and said to him, "You were the Chosen One, it was said you would destroy the Sith, not join them. You were to bring balance to the Force, not leave it in darkness.

But I have come to believe that when Obi-Wan says this to Anakin, I do not believe this is something that he had shared with him before, especially concerning the Sith and the dark side of the Force

Obi-Wan may have shared with him about bringing the Force into balance, but maybe very little about destroying the Sith. We know that Anakin knew about the Sith, and about their ways, because he spoke of them to Palpatine. But it seemed he knew very little about the dark side. And given what Anakin showed concerning his own abilities, I could see possibly why Obi-Wan chose not to speak much about the dark side to him and its seductive nature.

But I also do not believe he knew that he was to destroy the Sith as part of being the Chosen One. If Anakin had really known and understood this and the nature of the dark side, then I think this would have greatly helped him resist Palpatine, even when it came to his dreams about Padme dying. He likely could have come to understand that to save Padme, that following the path of the dark side and the Sith could not be the way, especially if he was destined to destroy them and this would bring balance to the Force.

In other words, Anakin if he had really known these things about being the Chosen One, he could have known that joining the ones he was to destroy could not help him save anyone.

Again, I do not think Obi-Wan shared this with him, and obviously for good reason he thought. I find it interesting that Anakin said to Palpatine that he believed that there were things about the Force that the Jedi were not telling him. And frankly, I believe that was true, and what Obi-Wan and the Jedi were not telling him was about the dark side. And they did this in belief to protect him against himself and his arrogance, but in the end it actually paves the way for Palpatine to use this to teach him about the dark side and make him believe it can save lives.

Darth Sin!

 

I think that EVERYONE knew that Anakin was the chosen one, even Anakin. His biggest problem with the chosen one deal is that he had no patience. He did not want to wait to learn his new powers in due time, he wanted all the power right away.

I think that the Jedi approach is that he learns and grows in baby steps, fully exploring his new powers and mastering them before moving on to bigger and stronger powers. Palpatine gives him this immediate gratification, telling him that he can have all the powers he wants when he wants them and all else be damned.

Another issue Anakin has is that it appears that he feels that his visions of the future cannot be changed. If he approached them as one possible future and not THE future, he would be less apt to make some of the rash decisions he makes.

 

This is a good thread that I would like to see continue now that we have the ROTS folks on board.

 

With power comes much responsibility.
Anakin just couldn't hack the responsibility, he rejected it.
Anakin craved the power, but was unable to use it wisely - ultimately, he was drawn to using it selfishly.

For this reason, I think Lucas wisely avoided having us see Ani acknowledging that he was the Chosen One - it would almost suggest he is accepting the burden of responsibility by doing so.

It's funny how Anakin is so interested in what Qui-Gon has to offer.
He asks about midi-chlorians.
He is curious and willing to learn.
Ten years down the line, and he already thinks he knows best.

Power without control.
Like an Olympic champion sprinter...
... wearing high heels.

 

The whole bit about Anakin being "The Chosen One" the one to bring balance to the force ( which is something he ultimately does) But what if there is more to it then that...We know Anakin was created by the force but what does that mean?? Is it possible that what really is be stated is that the force is taking a human form? This would explain why he seems to have such a natural connection to the force in the first place. We know from ROTS that Anakin had much confusion in him...Could this be because the force around was also confused and unbalanced? Even Mace and Yoda no longer have a clear view in the force...Could what's happen with the rise of the dark side be reflecting itself internally in Anakin? That the bringing of balance wasn't just about the force as a whole but also about bring balance to Anakin himself? Anakin also states that he wants more but shouldn't...If he is the force in flesh form the knowledge of both side of the force would be there..he would only have to be exposed to it for that knowledge to manifest itself. This could explain why when he actually turned it seemed so quick and complete.
One final thought to this...With the force being out of balance starting with TPM isn't it possible that the force would be the only means to bring itself back into balance.

 

I say yes to all those questions. I've always thought of Anakin representing the Force. I believe he was born with a good side and a bad side. Just like the Force. He has conflict and he has happiness. He sees things other beings don't, not even the Jedi. He even understands the fact that it is okay to love when you are a normal human, though he is a Jedi, he lived 9 years as one of the "normal" people on Tatooine. Though the Jedi accept ordinary people loving each other, they don't understand that Anakin is an ordinary person that was forced to become something he just wasn't. Perhaps this is representing the fact that the Force is being, well, forced to be of service to the Sith. Something it doesn't want.

 

Who says the Force created Anakin? It is possible that the Sith did it as a means of creating the ultimate weapon against the Jedi. A trojan horse designed to destroy the Jedi from within. The ultimate revenge. He has such a connection to the Force because he has a large number of Midichlorians. The more he has, the more connected he is, the stronger he becomes. But it's not about having the power. It's about using it properly. Something that Anakin doesn't do. He is corrupted by absolute power. The very thing that makes him unquie is what drives him to the Dark Side.

Anakin does find balance within himself, but it is not necessarily connected to the Force, per say. The Force goes out of balance because greed replaces compassion. Evil grows stronger in terms of the balance good and evil. What happens to Anakin is that he fails to maintain a personal balance within himself. He doesn't let compassion rule his life, instead he's dominated by passion, which is the opposite of compassion. Passion is connected to greed. Comapssion is connected to selflessness. He never tries to control his greed and ambition, even when warned about it. He stops thinking of others and thinks of himself. When that happens, he has become lost to the Dark Side.

 

I'm going to throw out a thought...That maybe Palpatine was lying about Plagueis being about the create life...He's trying to seduce Anakin and tell him exactly what he want to hear..How convenient. As for Anakin having greed I don't see it. I see him conflicted between compassion and passion. One example of this is in killing Dooku he gives into his passion but a moment later he shows compassion for Obiwan even when Palpatine tells he they have no time and to leave him.

 

He's far from having absolute power before he turns to the Dark Side. How can you say him having absolute power turned him to the Dark Side when really, getting hold of that absolute power was the motivation. I never said he had to be made from the Force, that's what I believe. It makes the most sense.

He's been controlling his so called "greed" and ambition for as long as he's been a Jedi. He may have let those feelings out once in a while, when some truly tragic or personal issue came to pass (Shmi's death, fighting Dooku).

 

Yes Anakin was made by the force, and yes he could have been made by the Sith messing with the force. the Sith thought they were makeing the Best weapon to take down the Jedi but what the Sith did not think about since they are so ego driven is that their secret weapon would turn againts them also (vader chucking palpy down the tube) and i also feel Anakin knew about being the chosen one if you read DARK Lord the vader book at the end as he is whooping the jedi guy. the jedi dude was like so who are you and vader said Do you remember the Chosen One? Anakin Skywalker... then whooped on the guy some more

 

In one of the books I can't remember which one Anakin briefly talks about being the Chosen One and that he didn't believe the coucil believed it any longer. Obiwan basically tells him it's what he believes that matters that's when Anakin asks him what he believes he is destined for and Obiwan's response is infinate sadness.
In my last post I said I couldn't see the greed in Anakin I need to clarify that in saying that I don't see greed in the form of acquiring wealth etc.. but I do see Anakin as obsessive in his need for power, control, and recognition.
Question is Where did this all come from? The Jedi don't teach it and Anakin in TPM his Mom tells us he knows nothing of greed. HOw does one who know nothing of it become so obsessed?

 

This is another exceptionally good point by Mr Trull. Although Anakin is reckless and impatient, and at one point, even vengeful and murderous in Episode II, he still believes - even when impulsive feelings are not clouding his judgement - that a functional dictatorship with "someone wise" is better than a failing democracy. Again, in Episode III, when Obi Wan glumly informs him that, "the Senate is expected to vote the Chancellor more emergency powers today," Anakin responds with an opposing sentiment: "Well, that's good, isn't it? That can only mean less deliberating and more action. It will make it easier for us to end this war." He's being duped by Palpatine, of course, but Anakin truly believes in taking the bull by the horns and getting the job done sooner rather than later. Interesting, isn't it? Most people look at Anakin's speech in the meadow scene of AOTC as a fascist monster talking - but this is really just a young and impressionable kid with a sharply delineated sense of right and wrong. There's nothing inherently evil about that. Anakin wants action - and he wants it now. Yes, it's part and parcel of what sends him to the Dark Side, but in Episode II's timeframe, he isn't thinking of power for power's sake.

There's a great essay on Anakin's political beliefs here:

http://www.sagajournal.com/apsystemworks.html

Worth a read!

 

That fact that he is restricted from attachments, and that he has lost everything he once loved (mother, the Jedi Order he once knew) and then he clings onto the one "good" thing left, Padme.

 

The point that's brought up about anakin's political view is an interesting one...Here is a young man who was a slave on a world outside of the laws of the Republic where greed and lawlesses is the order of the day. The idealistic boy who really only want his freedom gets it by a Jedi representing the Republic...The saying the grass is always greener on the other side of the fence aplies here. It become understandable that he would look to "some one wise" to make the Senate listen and act and think it justified. In many ways Anakin is more a realist then the Jedi Council. He hold the idea that he is the change he want to see in the Republic without considering his idea of change may not be the right change needed. He show this when he and Padme talk and she says the maybe they were fight on the wrong side. He's angered by her words to him being wrong is the same as failing.

 

When I say that Anakin is corrupted by absolute power, I am refering to the fact that his connection to the Force gives him many advantages. But this is also a great disadvantage. It gives Palpatine a reason to say that he forsees him being the greatest of all Jedi. He develops an ego from it. He starts to believe his own hype and the hype of Palpatine. So when he fails twice, he takes it too personally and develops an unheatlhy obsession for being more powerful. This in turn results in his becoming greedy. He's always wants more. Eventually it begins his path to the Dark Side. The power that he starts to weild with his training is what corrupts him. Prior to this, he wasn't concerned with being powerful. But once he starts to see what the Force can do for him and you combine it with Palpatine's teachings, it's clear that he was in essence doomed. He could've stopped, but his obsessive behavior kept this from happening.

 

He is certainly corrupted by power in the last act of Revenge of the Sith. Not totally, you understand, and never totally, in fact, but it's clear that the Dark Side begins to warp his reality; a metaphysical psychosis takes Anakin over for the duration of the saga - until Luke convinces him it doesn't have to be that way and he returns to the light.

 

In part I think you are right that it is Palpatine that encourages Anakin ego and the belief that he is destine for more then being merely a Jedi. The is a naive side to Anakin that almost desparately want to be heard and seen as something more then just a means to and end which is how I think he see his relationship which the Jedi as being. He has to know that the only reasons he's being trained is what he did during the battle over Naboo and the fact the the Jedi believe him to be the Chosen One. A part of him must feel he's being used by them where that is true or not doesn't matter...All that matters is what he believes to be true. Even with Obiwan, Anakin know he isn't chosen by Obiwan but taken to in response to a promise made to a dying master. This would certainly make Anakin want to prove he is worth training. I can't help but think the Jedi were clueless on how to train Anakin there was more to him then just training him in the Jedi arts which they focused on but it seem to have forgotten how to teach him the role he would play and the responsiblity he needed to complete his destiny and bring balance to the focus...Example in point is when Anakin reveals that Palpatine is a Dark Lord, Mace asks him to remain at the temple...In the book ROTS Mace see Anakin as shatterpoint that in itself would give one reason to believe Anakin is the Chosen One yet instead of taking Anakin with him he leaves him behind. I can't help but wonder if Mace had trusted that Anakin was the one to bring balance and allowed him to confront Palpatine with the other Jedi that maybe Anakin wouldn't have turn because he wouldn't have had time to think about saving Padme.

 

I didn't go through everything that everyone said, but I was hoping that someone could let me know if this theory has been brought up and if so, what has been said about it.

I believe that Darth Plageuous created Darth Sidious using his knowledge of the force, but since it was an unnatural creation with a strong attachment to the dark side, the force created anakin who has a strong attachment to the light side of the force to balance things out. That's why Anakin has no father and why his midichlorian count is so high. The Jedi simply misread the prophecy. (as stated as a possibility by Yoda in ROTS)

Assuming this is accurate, then Anakin already fullfilled the prophecy by simply existing. His fate was never predetermined, he could have stayed a Jedi or became Darth Vader. All of that just depended on the actions those around him.

Thoughts?

 

Anakin's very well cognizant of being "The Chosen One", and that Prophecy and all that, as he was. He even retooled the said appraising to quench his own caprice or as an excuse for being subject to circumstances in which he disapproves (IE, not getting above the Jedi Council refusing to promote him to the insignia of a Jedi Master, even after being allowed on the Council - both in which he was originally dubitable over even coming into fruition) or that he's stronger and progresses faster than a sizeable amount of the Jedi (using that a basis for his subsequent complaints after his mother's death regarding Obi-Wan and the counterproductive qualm of him holding Anakin back) - again, an excuse of sorts, in saying the least.

But, honestly? I couldn't have said it better myself. The fact that he's self-indulgent, audacious, and would rather succumb to the sought power and rein pretty much is a vindication of the point and is probably what coerced him to the Dark Side of the Force (and the Empire, for that matter). He feels a lucid sense of royalty and authority - as if the world around him isn't centered on him and if things don't go as forethoughted by himself, even that kind of slight facet proves to be troublesome and furthermore brings about worry. Even with plaguing mishaps like the fact that he was a slave all his childhood yet didn't come to question authority, the fact still remains. The true gripes here, in my eyes? A licentious incentive for power and control, tis' all...

 

I think you've answered your own question. I believe that someone of Anakin's nature and with his upbringing would loathe the idea of predestination, of being a slave to fate.

 

So no ones got any thoughts on what I said?

 

I've never heard that particular theory brought up before, but it at least takes into consideration the concept of balance, and that Anakin would have fulfilled the prophecy whether he turned or not, which I think are key points.

 

For the sake of this arguement, focus on the term 'the Chosen One.'

First, and most logically by the inherent meaning of the term, we can assume that Anakin is in fact chosen -- by others. In this sense, Qui-Gon chooses Anakin, the Jedi choose him (inspired by Obi-Wan to do so) and later Padme and Palpatine 'choose' Anakin.

Each 'chooses' Anakin for different reasons:
- Qui Gon for reasons related to Anakin's midi count and his force potential as the one prophesied long ago
- Obi-Wan 'chooses' Anakin as his Padawan out of loyalty to QGJ, his now dead master
- The Jedi choose Anakin out of QGJ and Obi-Wan's determination and conviction
- Padme chooses Anakin out of love
- Palpatine chooses Anakin out of greed
- Luke chooses him, like his mother before him, out of love

The prophecy seems to be a Jedi one that emerges from the Journal of the Whills. Yet I seem to recall in the EU that there is evidence from the Sith Holocrons that they too expect a chosen one, only one with a much darker flavor. Both seem to point to the same individual. Is this merely a matter of interpretation, or something more?

The other meaning of the term could refer, simply put, to 'one who chooses.' Anakin 'chooses' to pod race for the opportunity for the unexpected visitors' ability to fix their spacecraft and leave Tatooine. He 'chooses' to accept his freedom and depart Tatooine with the visitors, leaving his mother behind. He 'chooses' to become a Padawan Jedi. He 'chooses' to return to Tatooine to save his mother. When he learns she's been captured by the sand people, and that they tortured her as she dies in his arms, he 'chooses' to kill them all -- adults and children. He 'chooses' to pursue a relationship with Padme and eventually marry her. He 'chooses' to join the Jedi order as a knight. He 'chooses' to learn as much if not more from Palpatine as he does from Obi-Wan. He 'chooses' to kill Dooku. He 'chooses' to keep Padme from dying at all costs. He 'chooses' to unhand Windu. He 'chooses' to join the Sith, kill the younglings and destroy the Jedi order. Many years later, he 'chooses' to kill the Emperor, save his son's life and bring balance back to the force.

So the 'chosen' aspect of the 'Chosen One' could be a two way street, a quite literal play on words. He is 'chosen' by all, and yet he 'chooses' to do as he pleases. As a physical incarnation of the living force, Anakin could well be intoxicated with the experience of life.

He never mentions the force because he 'is' the force, a force struggling between what is best for 'the self' and what is best 'for all' life.

In the upcoming TV series, I hope GL allows some of Vaderkin's logic for his choices to come across -- why he is what he is. Why he feels his destiny is what it is. It would be way kool to hear JEJ waxing philosophical just before Vader he calmly decapitates a captured Jedi renegade.