Books The Official Darth Plagueis Discussion Thread (Spoilers Allowed)

Never really shared this with anyone, but I do have a very close connection to someone who was working in close proximity 20th Century Fox in 2005/6. And Lucas was 100 percent already planning out the sequel trilogy at that point, and from what I remembered being told (by a grown up, I was 12 years old at the time) was that Fox was already on a mission to be the distributor for that trilogy. Not sure how that played into plans surrounding Darth Plagueis and how much things changed.

 

I was as, if not more, hyped for this novel as I was for TFA (I first became a fan in 2006 and therefore didn’t experience the OT or PT hype). The OT and PT left me wondering about the accuracy of the Plagueis story and about Palpatine’s origin. I couldn’t wait to learn the truth about Plagueis and Sidious.

 

It's funny - Luceno took most of Palpatine's speech to Anakin as literal, but it's so funny listening to it now and hearing Palpatine talk about how Plagueis could keep the ones he cared about from dying. Plagueis obviously didn't actually care about anyone. I just trying to imagine the character from the book with like a wife and children or something, or some really close friends that he meets up with every week for dinner. Who did Plagueis keep from dying? Darth Venamis, who he tortured and experimented on for decades.

 

Luceno certainly took a more standard dark-side approach to that line. But I actually like a more literal interpretation, because it forms a stronger parallel to Anakin. I think the non-canon Shakespearean version of ROTS actually presents a version of the Darth Plagueis legend where he has a wife whom he’s trying to save.

It’s not so much that a Sith Lord should be made likable. Instead it’s the idea that a Sith Lord is a twisted version of real human impulses, including the greed and possessiveness that can come into play in relationships. Consider Othello and Macbeth after their falls, and how dramatically their attachments contributed to their monstrous actions. This story is a tragedy after all, so I think the Shakespearean feel to it (thematically, I mean, not the adaptation I referenced) is not wholly unintentional. I’m almost sure that McDiarmid, at least, probably had something like this in mind.

 

It's sorta interesting to think as well that before the book one could kinda take this as JUST a story...like obviously it's like 99% pretty obvious that Palpatine is talking about himself and his master...BUT....since I don't think the movie ever truly confirms it that it could be Palpatine telling just a actual myth.

Of course both legends and canon have confirmed YES Plagueis is Sidious Master.

Honestly the only thing I wonder about Canon Plagueis is the timeline of events...because we don't know for sure now if Plagueis dies day after Phantom Menace ends...I sorta get the impression his death happens earlier now

 

Plagueis “cared about” Venamis in that he wanted Venamis alive for experiments.

 

The implication seems to be that the Banites started targeting influential “people” (the quotes are to account for non-humans) when picking Apprentices long before Plagueis in an effort to take control of galactic society. It would be interesting if Canon has this go back to Bane himself.

 

It seems to have started after Darth Gravid, and the means to immortality lost, in Legends. Around the halfway point between Bane and Sidious.

 

It seems like Gravid marked the end of the Old Republic era and the beginning of the Prequel era. @Sinrebirth

 

The dark side is parasitic like any good bloodborne pathogen. The plague or even COVID is a symbolic representation of this idea in nature. We can also find this tendency in human behavior, individually and in social organization, ie. oligarchy as an authoritarian economic system based on finance capital and debtor peonage. Plagueis represents this tendency in nature and society. Like him, it is grotesque and distorts humanity.

Politicians are minions of those who pull their financial strings, as was shown in the novel.

I think Lucas was planning to begin to define the dark side and play with Anakin’s origins to explore what that could be to the ST as well as the saga at large. Plagues I’m the novel was certainly a conduit to exploration of the origins and development of the dark side in AGFFA.


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Luceno should write Plagueis again just like Timothy Zahn is writing Thrawn in nu canon

 

In the magical happy world of my dreams Luceno would carry out what he began in the Plagueis novel to its logical conclusion.

Obviously, a trilogy won't do this line justice. It requires a nine novel series at the very least. Preferably NJO-level, with maybe a comic series or five and a few video games. Also an epic multi-year tv series like GOT with lots of Separatist drama, but like when GOT was good and not the last season.

 

And an entire spin-off series where Hill accompanies Wat Tambor in one of those trippy quests.

After all, San Hill seemed to be the only one who enjoyed the Techno Union music in that Youtube video...

 

Not sure this is the right place, but also I’m pretty sure it is. I was watching the Star Wars Archives unboxing video, and saw this wonderful ROTS concept art for a Muun, which features the fabulous Muun nose in its final form:



There are some additional Separatist concept pieces that look a lot like the other concept art Lucas sent Luceno for Plagueis, the Neimoidian in a cloak, but like we’ve mentioned, he was probably thinking of an amalgam of concepts when he sent things to Luceno. Also, I only caught glimpses of those, so no screenshot.

 

I think the basic premise of Muuns and Muunilinst and banking clans provided Lucas an outlet to express his disdain for greedy interest compounding finanacial elites who live parasitically off the rest of the population. His experience financing TESB taught him this lesson. Perhaps the financial crisis of 2007/08 an inspiration. His distaste for usury evident when suggesting to Luceno that Plagueis be a Muun who only loves muuney.

“If money is all that you love, then that’s what you‘ll receive.”


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THIS IS AWESOME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! He's even inexplicably using a paper ledger like it's a datapad, which I love.

Exactly. Before the Plagueis novel came out, I thought we'd get a truly Scrooge-like character to explain Palpatine's speech in ROTS. I was hoping for a despicable money-hungry, greedy character who maybe actually did love some real person or people at one time, but gave it all up in his pursuit of power. Then when someone he once loved died, he forced them to come back (whether they wanted to or not - a twist on the original Scrooge story when he let those in his life walk away). It would have made him a much more horrible character.

But don't get me wrong, I really enjoyed the story we did get. It just didn't seem to match Palpatine's dialogue much, in terms of saving who one loves and all of that to get Anakin on board. Still, wouldn't be the first time Palps lied.

 

I liked to think Plagueis genuinely cared for Sidious as a surrogate son and he was the guy he saved from death.

Then he took a nap to recover and Palpatine was like "it's free real estate".

 

What if the loved one saved from death is actually Shmi and unborn Anakin?

Plagueis could have tried to separate young Palpatine from his secret love, forcing him to kill her to proove himself. When he did, he saved Shmi's life and that of their unborn son Anakin at the cost of her memory, hence she thought she had a virgin birth later on. That is why Palpatine tried the same with Anakin and Padmé. Proof to Anakin he is the only one that can save her, force Anakin to kill her even if indirectly. Only Palpatine knew he had to keep his distance from Shmi in order to not harm her further at least until he learned what Plagueis knew, how to save her and bring her back should he try to kill her again. Once Plagueis was out of the picture then later though, he could reconnect with Anakin.

 

I think LFL have very purposefully avoided Plagueis - wouldn't be surprised to see him turn up in The Acolyte though, it's a story they will most certainly get to eventually...

 

Plagueis loves nothing but command over the dark side, midichlorians and the power over life and death. The whole monologue about “saving the ones he loved from dying” was a lie and a trap to ensnare Anakin.


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I’ve got to say, these are fascinating interpretations of those lines from Episode 3. I can’t recall my original impressions of Plagueis too well, but I don’t think I considered he would be motivated by economic greed. But why shouldn’t he? It's one of the primary expressions of evil in our world, so it’d be intriguing to see it magnified in the form of a Sith Lord, to see it given mythological and epic dimensions.

Thinking about this, I'm also reminded of Baron Harkonnen in Dune, whose greed and ambition to possess the full riches of Arrakis seemed like a gateway to nearly unimaginable financial power. The idea of Wealth that is so great that it is almost awe-inspiring is quite intriguing.

And I think this idea was actually partly explored in TLJ. The ultimate evil, Snoke, was shown to be an essentially monstrously wealthy being who delighted in his luxury even as he led a fleet of fanatical soldiers to re-conquer lost riches and long-lost Imperial Glory. Similarly, and working in league with him, we got another glimpse at the Galactic Elite, the people who financed the wars and destruction of decades for the sole purpose of getting richer (and whom we had last seen at a certain Opera). It was greed and a desire for more power that drove them. And that was the dark side’s main manifestation in that movie. That need to fully control the world around you, at the expense of other beings, whom the powerful think they can literally buy and own.

And yet another thing this reminds me of is the mysterious series that Lucas was developing before he sold the company: Underworld. Not so much because I think Plagueis would have been involved, but it was said to be very much a noir-inspired take on the Star Wars universe, and film noir is strongly tied to similar themes of greed and power and the criminal shadow-world, of the socioeconomic forces that exist around people and in many ways govern their lives. So while Plagueis would not have been in the series, perhaps there would have been a hint that he and the other Sith Lords had an old, strong connection to the criminal underworld. It makes sense, since the darker aspects of society must often operate in secret to avoid detection, and the various black markets and underworlds that exist alongside places of power are sometimes the primary places where those networks can grow and thrive.

Anyway, this was definitely a lot of food for thought. It's an idea I hadn't considered before, and it adds a darker shade to the Muuns and the Banking Clan in general. And perhaps now I'm also thinking of a greedy old Muun (maybe voiced by Michael Caine) ranting cantankerously about how he deserves all that he has obtained and should never be forced to give even an small bit of it to anyone else. Perhaps not even to his apprentice, who would then be quite motivated to stop the greedy old monster before he somehow found a way to cheat death.

 

@Sauron_18

Makes Plageuis a Sith of his time that's for sure, when it really about the money and working with the elite of the galaxy.

Compared to the Sith of old which is all about the magic and leading legions into battle.

 

This novel for me always will be the true origin story of Darth Sidious i know Disney in some point will retold Sidious origin but this novel have a special place in my heart

 

If you love Palpatine, you gotta love Plagueis.


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I wish Luceno had written a novel about Yoda origins with his master Gormo like Plagueis style but with Light Side perspective