A&A The Official Karen Traviss Discussion Thread

So is someone else going to write the sequel to 501st? Are they going to bridge the gap between Jusik & Kad meeting up with Jaina Solo in legacy? What happened to Darman, Kal and Ordo? etc.?

I get what your saying, but Order 66 was more than 3 to 1 odds, and the Jedi were attacked by the very soldiers they were leading. They were taken completely off guard and betrayed. In Order 66, the Jedi had their backs turned so to speak.

In the 501st book, the Jedi are in hiding and a squad of 3 Commandos take out a Jedi that seemed to be healthy and armed. According to Traviss, his only option was to try to shatter some transparisteel and hope the shrapnel took them out? Please, a real jedi would have had a lot more tricks than that and wouldn't be taken by surprise.

 

I think the opening of the Courscant Knights book is a little different. At that point in time, the Jedi have been on the run for a longer period of time without rest. That Jedi Master had little food, shelter, rest, for a long time and was on Coruscant with little hope of getting off planet. But still you are right, you would think a Master would be able to handle a few stormies if an untrained Luke can.

 

I think the opening of the Courscant Knights book is a little different. At that point in time, the Jedi have been on the run for a longer period of time without rest. That Jedi Master had little food, shelter, rest, for a long time and was on Coruscant with little hope of getting off planet. But still you are right, you would think a Master would be able to handle a few stormies if an untrained Luke can. [/quote]

I don't disagree, but I think that's part of the problem with the fluctuations of power levels within the books. Many of the characters seem to suffer superhero syndrome as their power levels spike and fall at the demands of the plot.

Yelgo, I think that was his name, was a low-level knight who had been on the run at least several weeks under who knows what conditions. He was most likely trained to take down droids and scum with blasters, not a trained hit team. You see this sort of thing when spec ops do drills against regular military or civilian assets. Had they been carving up the remaining Jedi like Darth Vader Jr...well, that would be over-egging it, but I think one Master who wanted to die to distract them, and was acting the part of a madman to distract them from checking the building (and killed the only one who got close with ease and tossed the other around like ragdolls) and one low-level knight isn't exactly super-soldier material. YMMV, of course, but when I see things like scenes from the comics to other books of knights and masters getting mowed down I really have to wonder just how out of line it is.

 

I don't disagree, but I think that's part of the problem with the fluctuations of power levels within the books. Many of the characters seem to suffer superhero syndrome as their power levels spike and fall at the demands of the plot.

Yelgo, I think that was his name, was a low-level knight who had been on the run at least several weeks under who knows what conditions. He was most likely trained to take down droids and scum with blasters, not a trained hit team. You see this sort of thing when spec ops do drills against regular military or civilian assets. Had they been carving up the remaining Jedi like Darth Vader Jr...well, that would be over-egging it, but I think one Master who wanted to die to distract them, and was acting the part of a madman to distract them from checking the building (and killed the only one who got close with ease and tossed the other around like ragdolls) and one low-level knight isn't exactly super-soldier material. YMMV, of course, but when I see things like scenes from the comics to other books of knights and masters getting mowed down I really have to wonder just how out of line it is.[/quote]

That's probably why I avoid the comics. I just know most knights, Yelgo included, should have/would have ripped their DC's out of there hands telekinetically a carved them up before they could react...lol.

James

 

But weren't the Jedi taken by surprise by Order 66? How is this that different?

It's not that I think your viewpoint doesn't have merit in some parts of Star Wars. The Clone Wars animated series for example gives us super powered Jedi that can do it all.

That said a lot of sources don't treat the Jedi with that same super power level. As such I feel like singling out KT, as if she somehow just doesn't get it, isn't a fair approach.

A lot of authors write Jedi in a more minimalistic fashion, even Lucas himself in my opinion. Keep in mind that when we're watching Obi-Wan, Anakin, Mace and Yoda, we're seeing the best of the best. Not everyone is up to their power level.

How many Jedi went to Geonosis? How many survived? Same deal with Order 66. I could with ease say that I think Stass Allie should have been able to Force throw the two troopers that opened fire on her speeder, or that Plo Koon should have been able to evade 1 clone fighter pilot. Reality is it just didn't happen that way.

 

I'm saying once the Jedi knew that they were being hunted down, they wouldn't be taken by surprise. Obviously they were taken by surprise in Order 66.

I single out Karen Traviss because she not only has weakened the Jedi abilities, but at the same time, made Mandos almost Jedi like but without the force. She makes it sound as if Ordo or any of the nulls could kill General Zey in a 1 on 1 fight, with our without weapons.

As for Geonosis Jedi, I found that believable simply by the following the math. It was at least 100 to 1 if not more counting the Geonosians and droids.

James

 

At the same time Scout, who was said not to have achieved Jedi Knight status (although she was to be Knighted by Altis in IC#2), not only won in lightsaber combat against Mando trained Bardan but also won on the sports field against the Mandos. Jaina was flat out told by Boba that the only reason he got close to her was because he cheated and flooded her danger sense, and Bevin told her that within days she'd be able to defeat any Mando 100% of the time once she learned their fighting style.

Not unlike a comic book, I think it was more dictates of the plot and the fact that the RC/IC novels were "Mando-centric" books that we saw that side, and there were only a few actual Mando vs Jedi fights. All we really had were Mandos talking tough, and most of that tough talk was clearly out of fear of the powers that Jedi had.

Even the famous Jacen wounding was the result of him being exhausted and being holding the boarding tube together while protecting his apprentice and expecting the Mando to shoot to kill, not to wound. It was a very specific set of circumstances. And Tahiri was only wounded as badly as she was because Mirta cheated and stabbed her while she was fighting Jaina.

 

i just finished i think 2 clones wars novels she has recently published, they weren't half bad, but it is stuff that takes place before order 66.

 

Up to page 70 of The World Before (book 3 of her Wess'har Series); and I must say its amazing how much of this series she copied over to SW for her RC series. Aras and Shan are just like Etain and Kal Skirata. And the marines in the book are pretty much identical to the clone troopers as well.

 

You probably don't want to read her Gears of War tie-ins, then.

 

She has also left Del Rey and is now publishing her original fiction via Simon and Schuster and in addition to her leaving Del Rey, the entire GEARS OF WAR franchise went with her over to S&S.


Wooooooo!

Sounds like somebody wuz a mite upset.

 

If anyone were going to be Kal in WW I'd say the black ops guy is a lot closer. I don't really see the connection, as Shan is a competent cop turned secret eco-terrorist and Aras is an immortal alien soldier who has the exact OPPOSITE morals as Kal. Actually, Kal doesn't have many morals, but Aras does. If you mean the sense of "what matters is what you do, not what you meant to happen", then that theme does pop up in both series, although in radically different ways.

I think she does deal a lot with the whole identity thing, as Shan has to face if she's a cop, an eco-warrior, and even if she's a human in the end, but I don't really see how she's copied over to Etain, and Aras as Kal really feels like a stretch.

I think the Royal Marines blend into the background a bit as they're just support until one of them becomes important later in the series.

 

I'm up to page 150 in book 3... and I find myself just PUSHING myself to get through it. Its getting a bit grudging. And really, who didn't see that: Shan wasn't really dead. The entire time I KNEW she was alive; dunno if it was so much predictability on Karen's part or just how society and literature and culture is now with our books and movies that its just such the norm.

But anyway; I'm growing less and less enthused about the series the more of it I read.

 

I don't think that blacked out part was supposed to be that big of a secret...I had the feeling the "surprise" was more for the characters in-story than the reader. I did like how Shan played it.

The stuff with Lindsay and the spook is actually more interesting than the Ade/Shan/Aras stuff.

I have a feeling book 3 suffered a little from the series switching from 3 books to 6 books, and the politics with the ancient Wess'har in ALLY plus how far the ancient Wess'har go in their ecological extremism was a nice counter to Shan and showed what a crazy cow Shan really is.

There's a definite slow-down after the second book, with book four having a kick start in terms of the rising action, but it's much more of a character study that stands or falls on how much you connect with the characters.

If you get a chance, and you're interested, I thought "Human Weakness" in the HALO anthology was a fascinating look at Traviss when she's not using soldiers or coppers. A nice character piece that really works if you're a HALO fan and something very different from the average KT story.

 

Having only played HALO a few times and thoroughly hating it (and the culture of gamers it spawned); would it be worth picking it up?

 

Also, why'd the series go from 3 books to 6 books?

 

Hmmm...have you ever read any of the books?

I'd say the Nyland books are pretty decent in terms of military fiction (FWIW, many of the people who didn't care for the RC books pointed to the more action orientated HALO novels as examples of what they wanted). In regards to the anthology, the only downside is that it's only in TPB format right now, but that's only $5 more than a MMPB is now, and it's probably a good introduction to a wide spread of the HALO universe.

You'll get spoiled on a few things, but the spoilers are more for the game stuff which isn't that big of a deal. Traviss' story takes place between game 2 and 3 and features the AI Cortana in a struggle to keep herself sane (in the HALO universe AI's go insane after seven years) as she reaches her seven year mark and an alien psychic enemy known as the Gravemind infests her.

It works even better when you've had some spoilering of the last game, but I think it stands okay by itself. It's tied very tightly to the continuity of the games.

As far as Wess'har Wars, the story was always meant to be longer than three books, but had an endpoint at the third. Harper-Collins signed for another three rather early on, and we got the Equibas Wess'har and their eco-fanatical allies.

As the books went on I found it harder and harder to figure out whose, if anyone's, side I was on in the conflict, and Shan is another character that Traviss has stated she really didn't like as a person because of her strident views and the fact that she really wasn't a nice person. Shan's past comes up more and more as the books march on.

It's been so long since I read them I can't recall what happened when and which books has what plot, so I don't want to spoil anything, but how they deal with the spider-aliens that Aras fought once the Equibas get there was pretty surprising. The role Eddie takes was also surprising, as was the move away from Shan, Aras, and Ade as the main POV characters.

 

No offense is meant by this patch; but just curious - are you a "good friend" of Karen's or something? Just curious on your knowledge specific to her.

 

Uhhh...my name is in my signature and we've had this discussion before. Actually, I think you asked me if I was married to her last time. Wookieepedia classifies me as a "good friend" since they say Mij Gilamar was named after her "good friend", so I suppose that's a fair descriptor.

http://karentraviss.typepad.com/blog/2010/05/that-s-my-boy.html

(in case anyone doesn't click on that...no, I'm not really her son)

FWIW, the "knowledge specific to her" can all be found from posts on her old newgroup (I moderated it for a time, been gone for ages but I believe it is still going) or other public statements. Except my views on the WW books are my views of the WW books.

Anyway, the next two books focus a bit more on Dr Rayat and Lindsay and the fallout from their crimes. Some fans seemed to find their story more interesting than Shan and Aras', but if the series isn't clicking you should keep in mind that the larger arc is still around Shan, although Eddie and Ade have larger roles and Shan and Aras fade into more of a background presence as drivers of the story because of who they are and their actions.

ISTR that Havac did reviews of the WW books somewhere around here, I don't know if he had a dedicated thread to his own non-SW reviews or not.

 

I've been reading over a lot of the discussions that were had ever since Karen first started writing SW. It is really disheartening to watch how comments have changed from how excited for her books people were to how outright despised she seems to have become.

Its sad, and not a fun time.

 

To be honest with the exception of the Mando/Jaina sections of her LOTF novels ive always felt she added a nice little sub-genre to the SWEU.