The Official Mysteries of the Sith hints and tips thread

Roger Roger:

To compare the criticism of ANH and TPM is simply unfair in my opinion. Since ANH was the first and completely fresh, it wowed many of the critics like it wowed audience members. The circumstances surrounding TPM's release were much different: the 16 years of waiting, the vaulting of the original trilogy to mythic levels, TPM being the fourth installment in a series, and the almost unreachable expectations with which many critics (I read) treated TPM.

Also, TPM was not roundly criticized. It received mixed reactions. The two critics I use most often as a reference point (Ebert and Janet Maslin of the New York Times) both lauded the film.

As in any profession, there are some who do their jobs terribly, most do it at an average level and few stand out as the elite. Movie critics are no different. Most of them are average and (therefore for me) I consider their opinions almost meaningless.

 

Quick, guys! Stop this almost reasonable discussion of criticism and the perception of TPM!

We have to do a Sith Roll call!

Quaff-Down just challenged you all to a game of "Whose faction can crow the loudest?"

We dare not let the "Bashers" win! http://216.32.191.104/forum/

 

Lately it seems that a movie has to be twice as good as it is popular to actually be considered good by the public.

I think it all started with the indie rock scene (seriously, hear me out). All of a sudden everyone realized there was a whole bunch of music being produced that no one was listening to I remember when I was in grade 8 the less known the band was the cooler it was to like them.

And then (by no coincidence) came the independent film scene. My local video store added a "cult movie" section to their selection and kids (including myself) began renting obscure movies faster than the store could buy them. Laserdiscs and even the internet contributed to this, now not only did you have to see every Hong Kong action flick but you had to see them in widescreen.

Yound independent directors like Tarantino and Kevin Smith were regarded as rock stars. And everyone was rushing to see independent movies so they too could be cool (if you don't believe this is true, look at the success of Miramax and dramatic increase in popularity of indie film festivals). Today it seems like everyone wants to be a film maker.

No one ever said it, but to have seen alot of movies and listen to bands that nobody had heard of literally made your peers consider you more cultured, smarter and cooler. And alot of buzz words like "sell-out" and "underground" were being spoken by kids and their favorite VJs (who had themselves fooled they were rockstars).

And if unknown meant "cool" then well-known meant "lame" or even worse "sell out." And then of course you get your "Hanson Sucks" web pages and half the people in the country thinking that Titanic is the "worst movie ever made." And now it seems the same even goes for stand up comics (I'm refering to Bobcat Goldthwait's "Kill Seinfeld" shirt).

Then at the height of it all comes the most anticipated movie of all time. Which still has a chance to be accepted by the public, as long as the people leave the theatre out of breath and soaked in their own tears of joy and excitement. So the Phantom Menace became a punching-bag for anyone and everyone who bought into all this frame of mind. And George Lucas makes it easy for you by adding a character who is "annoying" and "gay" and "racist." I even posted a thread months ago about hatred of Episode-i predicting this inevitable outcome.

So what I'm trying to say is that your misguided cyincism is just a stupid trend. But you won't let that worry you, as long as you're cooler and smarter than everyone who enjoys Episode-i. I'm sure twenty years from know TPM will be more or less forgotten and even if this trend continues it'll then be cool to have seen such a classic movie.

"Yousa no tinken yousa greater den da Gungans...Mesa like dis. Maybe wesa bein friends."

I know, this ain't the first post I've ended with that quote.

 

QuiGon,

1.) The whole you hate TPM, you must be cynical is such a tired arguement. Do you actually believe that any of us have waited 16 years to trash this movie? Come on. Here's the real reason we didn't like it. As impossible it is to believe WE actually thought it was a bad movie. I'll give you a minute to soak that in, before I move on to my next point.

2.) Look at the threads by the fans of TPM. You'll find out that they are the ones bashing movies like Titanic. I mean, look how many them post how TPM is going to kick AP2's ass, how it's going to beat Titanic in the box-office, how any movie thats not TPM is not worth watching this summer. And yet you say WE'RE the ones who are jaded and cynical?

3.) All I or anyone who didn't like TPM wanted was to see a movie that was on the same level as the original trilogy. It wasn't. For me personally, its just another entry into over saturated special effects, check your brain at the door movie. And it's a shame too, it could have been a great movie. None of us basher will deny that.

 

here's what I think about TPM bashers:
Han would say, "Oh they can just go blow!", Luke would say, "Use the Force for defense, never for attack!" Leia would say, "This is some fan forum. When you let these people in, didn't you have a plan for getting them out!" Ben would say "A more wretched hive of scum and villiany you'll not find in any other thread." Tarkin would say, "Exterminate them, IMMEDIATELY!" Vader would say, "The power to use the world wide web is insignificant next to the Force." Obi-Wan would say, "who are these pathetic life forms?". Qui-Gon would say, "DON'T do that again." Amidala would say, "I was not elected to watch a fun movie die while it is discussed in a committee." And Jar-Jar would say, "Peeeuusa, get dem outta here." There are a few allies for you! Also General, count me in!

okay so I copied it from someone who was clever enough to think this up. Much props to them.

 

Good "take" Robz99...

 

I'd never stick around at a discussion forum that is about a movie I dislike.I can't understand why TPM bashers do.There's always the original trilogy forum.

 

I thought this was a PREQUEL forum, not TPM forum. My bad.

Plus I'd just die if I don't find out who's sexier Young OB1 or Han Solo. http://216.32.191.104/forum/

[This message has been edited by Lazy Jedi (edited 07-06-1999).]

 

If you didn't like TPM, do you really think that Episode Two will be better? Why stick around and talk about a movie that you hate and the sequels to that movie? Sounds like you enjoy being a cynic.

If anything, you should ignore the threads of TPM lovers if you hated the movie so much. That also suggests that you enjoy bashing the movie.

Your bad.

[This message has been edited by Arsenal 2.0 (edited 07-06-1999).]

 

My take on the media's entire angle on TPM is yet another exercise of their so-called power to "influence" the minds of individuals. We all remember that the media (and, yes, LFL) spent nearly a year hyping TPM to the general public (those who aren't raving SW fans like us http://216.32.191.104/forum/), helping to create a mass frenzy that culminated on May 19. The media helped to position TPM on such a high pedestal that the only direction it could go was down. The media loves to hype people/films/art/etc. and then tear it down. It makes them feel powerful and important.
Plus, if one really lulls this over, the media was sick of hyping it. Continuing to hype TPM provided no challenge, no interesting print, no controversy. So...why not trash it? Yeah, baby, yeah, we get to turn the hype around because there's nothing left to say that's positive! We hate positive! Jerry Springer fans take note... There seems to be a cut-off point with media praise. Remember that much of the media seemed to favor Ken Starr's investigation of Clinton, but after all was said and done, people began to criticize him and his techniques full force. The TPM debacle is further evidence of this.
I believe that the media will soon tire of trashing TPM for the same reasons- they will have trashed it all they could. Trashing TPM will no longer hold any interest. They may just retract some of their earlier critcisms of TPM. I hope they retract their truly ridiculous "Jar Jar is racist" mantra. Also, with another "grandiose display of power," they will help the SW franchise rise up from the ashes, so to speak. Just in time for Ep II? I think that the media just might laud Ep II if they choose a before-hand campaign of muttering how much TPM sucked, and how Ep II can't possibly be any worse. In fact, lauding Ep II would reinforce how "right" they were about TPM.
I don't believe that the media really thought that their criticisms of TPM would drive audiences away. There is a long history of the media trashing films that clean up at the BO. They trashed TPM because they could, and because it would be more interesting to trash the most highly-anticipated film of all-time. It's the same game that the media has played for years. The media circus hasn't made me angry in the least. I find it laughable because their motives are so transparent. Don't take it seriously or personally. It's all a game. GL knows this, which is probably why he hasn't chosen to confront the media with it's weak attempt to further exert their influence. D**n, I need to shut up!!
My $.005 worth. OK, I'm really gonna shut up now.

 

Ironically, the rebel alliance commonly known in JC Forum circles as the TPM "Bashers" (we prefer to think of ourselves as Disciminating Star Wars Fans) was a creation of the very TPM Worshippers who hate us.

After rounds and rounds of vicious attacks by evildoers like Jedi3167 and Bossk77 (and his many evil clones) a small but determined band of freedom fighters formed an alliance out of necessity in order to bring intelligence, class, and honor back to their beloved Forum.

We, Bashers, look forward to the day when we can throw down our lightsabers and warmly embrace all of our Star Wars brothers and sisters in mutual respect and admiration. But alas!...as long as Sith Lords like Arsenal 2.0 and Rebel Scum are prowling these threads...no one is safe.

Sigh...our work here is not yet finished. We will continue to fight the good fight.

 

I saw TPM again today...and in a theater with stadium seating, a huge screen and dolby surround sound. As I watched, a strong feeling came over me regarding those who do not like TPM. Even the flaws which I ...in my padewan viewing stage....was almost willing to acknowledge.....were melting away before my eyes. The acting was Good!! Jake's parting scene was well done!! Amidala turned before our eyes from a well-dressed wuss into a strong battle leader. Jar jar got everything right in spite of himself. And Capt. Tarpals is the best character of the whole bunch. I was overtaken by the force.

As I drove home in my pod racer...er...car....I realized that the TPM bashers were indeed hopeless. I wanted to scream epithets at them....but couldn't really think of anything vile enough. Only mild phrases like...."do you always you combine your intellect with your seat cushions?" came to mind. Making up silly threads about swatting the critters with light sabers is too good...after all....they can be turned aside with a sharp twist of my head when my well-lacquered hair strikes Darth Derringer. With one graceful hand gesture...... a lead weighted sleeve thrashes Quaff-down Ginn into subconsciousness...and hopefully eternal silence. But...I digress.....we need to think of REALLY awful things to say about them!!! Feeeeeeeel the force.

 

I couldn't disagree more with fans who say the first Star Wars wasn't character driven. I agree completely with the Boston Globe article Roger Roger quotes. It was nothing BUT character driven! Are you saying the costumes and effects carried it? No way! They only worked because the acting and dialogue (and music) were so good -- MUCH better than they were in TPM, where even the best performances were flat and uninspired and very little if any of the dialogue "cracked like a whip," as the Globe article puts it. Here's a trivial example: remember the scene where R2 starts playing the hologram for Obi-Wan and they cut to a close-up of Luke's face, glancing at Obi-Wan? Mark Hammill's acting in that glance is FANTASTIC. It's also an inspired bit of staging and storytelling, and virtually UNNOTICEABLE because the movie is chock full of amazing CHARACTER stuff on this level.

We can pick on ANH and still be "true fans", but say ANYTHING about TPM...

 

I couldn't disagree more with fans who say the first Star Wars wasn't character driven. I agree completely with the Boston Globe article Roger Roger quotes. It was nothing BUT character driven! Are you saying the costumes and effects carried it? No way! They only worked because the acting and dialogue (and music) were so good -- MUCH better than they were in TPM, where even the best performances were flat and uninspired and very little if any of the dialogue "cracked like a whip," as the Globe article puts it. Here's a trivial example: remember the scene where R2 starts playing the hologram for Obi-Wan and they cut to a close-up of Luke's face, glancing at Obi-Wan? Mark Hammill's acting in that glance is FANTASTIC. It's also an inspired bit of staging and storytelling, and virtually UNNOTICEABLE because the movie is chock full of CHARACTER stuff on this level.

 

I couldn't disagree more with fans who say the first Star Wars wasn't character driven. I agree completely with the Boston Globe article Roger Roger quotes. It was nothing BUT character driven! Are you saying the costumes and effects carried it? No way! They only worked because the acting and dialogue (and music) were so good -- MUCH better than they were in TPM, where even the best performances were flat and uninspired and very little if any of the dialogue "cracked like a whip," as the Globe article puts it. Here's a trivial example: remember the scene where R2 starts playing the hologram for Obi-Wan and they cut to a close-up of Luke's face, glancing at Obi-Wan? Mark Hammill's acting in that glance is FANTASTIC. It's also an inspired bit of staging and storytelling, and virtually UNNOTICEABLE because the movie is chock full of CHARACTER stuff on this level.

 

Lazy Jedi:

My point wasn't that if you don't like TPM you must be cynical (yeah ok, it was damn close to that), it was that just about everyone is cynical and that is why TPM is getting such a bad response all around.

If you dislike it because you honestly think it was the weakest episode yet. Then that's a valid opinion. But if you don't give the story a chance because the film is cluttered with fx, you dislike Jar Jar because you recognise that he is comic relief, or because you feel (or realize) he is targeted at kids then you are just being cynical. Calling Lucas a "sell-out" would also be considered cynicism.

I still have yet to hear a good point on why TPM is so bad. "Jar Jar SUCKS," "It had no plot" and "The dialogue was horrible" are not valid points. Because the dialogue is at the exact same level as the original trilogy, the plot is even better and if you don't like Jar Jar that's your own hang up man.

 

QuiGonGin, on page 2 I posted a poem which barely scratches the surface of the problems I (and many like me) have with the film. In my opinion, each one is a significant flaw that, were each to stand alone and far apart, would not pose a problem, but when you add them all up and then throw in a bushel of things I didn't even mention, we got trouble.

None of the points I made are out of line and all are easily defensible. Want to know how many people responded to it? Final tally: One. And the four or five lines he/she actually addressed were FAR from convincing me. Now I know you won't agree with them, and I don't expect you to, but at least the arguments are out there if anyone cares to open their eyes.

And YOU asked, right?

 

?htis eht fo yretsym eht si tahw

...revas draob a tsuj ,yrros

 

Okay, I have been meditating the past 24 hours. (Actually, Vegas was deluged and I was afraid to turn on my computer for fear of a lightning strike). I think I see where I can be of assistance. (clears throat)

LEARN HOW TO ARGUE!!!!!!!!!!

QuiGonnJinn had a very good point, how is it followed up? "I didn't like TPM because it sucked!!!"

A "basher" makes a good point, how is it responded to? "You are all stupid, can't you see that it was the greatest movie ever made!!"

Whether or not you like TPM please think about what you are going to write before you write it. Maybe pencil down your comments first, or take notes of previous replies. Do not just click your mouse like some spaced-out freak. It only makes you look stupid.

(Rant is over) BTW whats up with the heightened traffic?

 

sorry

[This message has been edited by Deuce22 (edited 07-09-1999).]

 

Okay, I have been meditating the past 24 hours. (Actually, Vegas was deluged and I was afraid to turn on my computer for fear of a lightning strike). I think I see where I can be of assistance. (clears throat)

LEARN HOW TO ARGUE!!!!!!!!!!

QuiGonnJinn had a very good point, how is it followed up? "I didn't like TPM because it sucked!!!"

A "basher" makes a good point, how is it responded to? "You are all stupid, can't you see that it was the greatest movie ever made!!"

Whether or not you like TPM please think about what you are going to write before you write it. Maybe pencil down your comments first, or take notes of previous replies. Do not just click your mouse like some spaced-out freak. It only makes you look stupid.

(Rant is over) BTW whats up with the heightened traffic?

 

Okay, I have been meditating the past 24 hours. (Actually, Vegas was deluged and I was afraid to turn on my computer for fear of a lightning strike). I think I see where I can be of assistance. (clears throat)

LEARN HOW TO ARGUE!!!!!!!!!!

QuiGonnJinn had a very good point, how is it followed up? "I didn't like TPM because it sucked!!!"

A "basher" makes a good point, how is it responded to? "You are all stupid, can't you see that it was the greatest movie ever made!!"

Whether or not you like TPM please think about what you are going to write before you write it. Maybe pencil down your comments first, or take notes of previous replies. Do not just click your mouse like some spaced-out freak. It only makes you look stupid.

(Rant is over) BTW whats up with the heightened traffic?

 

Good point, Deuce22. (You might take it easy on that post button, though. http://216.32.191.104/forum/ ) By the way, I've just started a new job and moved 4 hours away from where I've been living, so I won't be on much until I can get my own internet connection. Until then, take it easy!

 

Gene says <<I couldn't disagree more with fans who say the first Star Wars wasn't character driven. I agree completely with the Boston Globe article Roger Roger quotes. It was nothing BUT character driven! Are you saying the costumes and effects carried it? No way! They only worked because the acting and dialogue (and music) were so good -- MUCH better than they were in TPM, where even the best performances were flat and uninspired and very little if any of the dialogue "cracked like a whip," as the Globe article puts it. Here's a trivial example: remember the scene where R2 starts playing the hologram for Obi-Wan and they cut to a close-up of Luke's face, glancing at Obi-Wan? Mark Hammill's acting in that glance is FANTASTIC. It's also an inspired bit of staging and storytelling, and virtually UNNOTICEABLE because the movie is chock full of CHARACTER stuff on this level.>>

The acting in ANH was so good? Are you kidding me? Are you saying Mark Hamill's acting was not only good, but "so good"? This the guy who almost ruined the "I am your father scene"? Also, I can match the example you use with a similar moment in TPM. When Shmi says Anakin was meant to help them, Qui-Gon turns and looks at Anakin and with his eyes says he sees "the chosen one." That scene (for me) almost matches the twin sunset scene in ANH. Maybe this was unnoticeable to you. Liam Neeson's performance ranks 1-2 with Harrison Ford's in ESB. And Carrie Fisher was downright terrible in ANH.

I love the characters in ANH. But no one will ever convince me that they aren't merely character sketches that were fleshed out in ESB.


[This message has been edited by Tom C (edited 07-09-1999).]

 

<<I couldn't disagree more with fans who say the first Star Wars wasn't character driven. I agree completely with the Boston Globe article Roger Roger quotes. It was nothing BUT character driven! Are you saying the costumes and effects carried it? No way! They only worked because the acting and dialogue (and music) were so good -- MUCH better than they were in TPM, where even the best performances were flat and uninspired and very little if any of the dialogue "cracked like a whip," as the Globe article puts it. Here's a trivial example: remember the scene where R2 starts playing the hologram for Obi-Wan and they cut to a close-up of Luke's face, glancing at Obi-Wan? Mark Hammill's acting in that glance is FANTASTIC. It's also an inspired bit of staging and storytelling, and virtually UNNOTICEABLE because the movie is chock full of CHARACTER stuff on this level.>>

The acting in ANH was so good? Are you kidding me? Are you saying Mark Hamill's acting was not only good, but "so good"? This the guy who almost ruined the "I am your father scene"? Also, I can match the example you use with a similar moment in TPM. When Shmi says Anakin was meant to help them, Qui-Gon turns and looks at Anakin and with his eyes says he sees "the chosen one." That scene (for me) almost matches the twin sunset scene in ANH. Maybe this was unnoticeable to you. Liam Neeson's performance ranks 1-2 with Harrison Ford's in ESB. And Carrie Fisher was downright terrible in ANH.

I love the characters in ANH. But no one will ever convince me that they aren't merely character sketches that were fleshed out in ESB.