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Lit The One Canon

Discussion in 'Literature' started by Sinrebirth , Aug 18, 2015.

  1. R4-D4

    R4-D4 Jedi Grand Master star 1

    Registered:
    Mar 6, 2003
    Another potential one canon issue
    . In Legends, Celly was sister of Bail. Here she is sister of Breha Organa? Legends Breha was a Antilles, here she is Organa? Maybe easy fix is Legends is right and Breha just calls her sil sister?
    And also Grand Inquistor is dead?
     
    Last edited: May 29, 2022
  2. Noash_Retrac

    Noash_Retrac Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 14, 2006
    1. You can interpret that Breha calls her sister because they are sisters, just by marriage.
    2. We'll see what happens in Ep 3 onwards.
     
  3. Golbolco

    Golbolco Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Jan 20, 2016
    It appears that the family trees need to be updated/rearranged, but I think there's already an easy solution:

    One interpretation is that the Bail Antilles of TPM has been merged with Bail Organa--therefore, Antilles is his bachelor name, and his relatives are Raymus Antilles, Corla Metonae, et cetera. Information on his parents, such as his mother being the former queen Mazicia, probably needs to be flipped. Breha's relatives are now Celly, Rouge, and Tia and their children.

    Another alternative, which I've favored for a while, is that the House of Organa and the House of Antilles are branches of the same house, which is why the Alderaanian succession crisis mentioned in a few different sourcebooks occurs: both the Organas and the Antilles are descendants from a now dead-or-abdicated Queen of Alderaan and their claims to the crown hold equal weight. Jorus C'Baoth in his infinite tact and wisdom arranges a cousin marriage between Bail and Breha to unite the houses. Therefore no matter how you slice it, both sides of the family are in fact Organas, as squicky as that is. Maybe this is why Bail and Breha prefer to adopt.

    Some other details: for the most part, modern sources assume that family names on Alderaan are matrilineal. Hence why Kayo and Niano from Episode 1 are Organas; Kayo married Celly Organa and took her name. Maybe he's in fact an Ulgo by birth. Also, Kayo's name might be taken from Kayos, the king of Ogana Major in early drafts for Episode IV.

    I don't think there's many wide-reaching problems with this interpretation, other than making some books awkward by referring to Bail's siblings when now they're Breha's or vice-versa.
     
  4. CosmoHender

    CosmoHender Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Dec 2, 2016
    Another One Canon question regarding Obi-Wan Kenobi.

    Is it possible that this Force-sensitive Corran (his name was revealed in the credits)...

    [​IMG]

    Is also this Force-sensitive Corran?

    [​IMG]
     
  5. Darth Corydon

    Darth Corydon Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 4, 2018
    seems like it is suppose to his mom has the same name in both
     
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  6. Irredeemable Fanboy

    Irredeemable Fanboy Jedi Knight star 3

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    Mar 27, 2020
    [face_laugh][face_laugh] This is gold.
     
  7. ConservativeJedi321

    ConservativeJedi321 Force Ghost star 6

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    Mar 19, 2016
    Wouldn't be the first time Star Wars went for the medieval feel.
     
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  8. VaderBoyee

    VaderBoyee Jedi Padawan star 1

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    Oct 9, 2021
  9. QuinlanSolo

    QuinlanSolo Jedi Knight star 1

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    Jun 17, 2019
    I wonder if the "Journals of Ben Kenobi" Marvel comics will be re-dated to after the Obi-Wan Kenobi show instead of before, given his frame of mind, access to his lightsaber, etc.
     
  10. VaderBoyee

    VaderBoyee Jedi Padawan star 1

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    Oct 9, 2021
    It is somewhat frustrating how Disney doesn't adhere to its own EU, though. In fact, there's more adherence to the old one (which is fine with me). But yeah, that makes sense.
     
    Last edited: Jun 13, 2022
  11. CosmoHender

    CosmoHender Jedi Master star 3

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    Dec 2, 2016
    I mean, we don't know when Obi-Wan buried his lightsaber. It would actually make more sense if it was buried more recently rather than closer to Revenge of the Sith, because considering how sand shifts and piles it might have been harder to recover if it had been buried for years.
     
  12. Fen_Bandit

    Fen_Bandit Jedi Padawan

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    Nov 18, 2019
    So how is everything thinking we reconcile Kenobi realizing Vader is alive in the show, with him figuring it out in the epilogue of Rise of Darth Vader?
     
  13. QuinlanSolo

    QuinlanSolo Jedi Knight star 1

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    Jun 17, 2019
    I think a common default retcon for squaring similar issues (Ahsoka novel vs TCW season 7; Kanan comic vs Bad Batch) has been to punt to trauma, claiming the characters misremembered or even forgot/supressed certain events as a coping mechanism. We can already apply this reasoning to certain inconsistencies about Obi-Wan even in the old EU. In the Kenobi novel, mere days after the end of ROTS, he mentions that he heard Qui-Gon while meditating with Yoda aboard the Tantive IV, but he's not sure that it really happened. In Dark Lord: The Rise of Darth Vader epilogue, about a month after ROTS, he hears Qui-Gon for the "first" time, right after he finds out that Vader is still alive from watching the HoloNet at Tosche's Station in Anchorhead. A year after ROTS, in Last of the Jedi #1: The Desperate Mission, he already misremembers, now thinking he found out Vader was alive from a HoloNet image on a data recorder he found in an alley in Mos Eisley. In OneCanon, by the time we get to the Obi-Wan Kenobi TV series, ten years after ROTS, we could say that he's having such trouble contacting Qui-Gon at all and is so demoralized that he doubts any of the previous times he heard from him, and the events surrounding them (like finding out Vader was alive), really happened - just a mix of nightmares, wishful thinking, and desert mirages. So when the Third Sister tells him Vader is alive, it hits him all over again like he's hearing about it for the first time.
     
    Last edited: Jun 14, 2022
  14. Sinrebirth

    Sinrebirth Mod-Emperor of the EUC, Lit, RPF and SWC star 9 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Nov 15, 2004
    I like that. Well said.
     
  15. QuinlanSolo

    QuinlanSolo Jedi Knight star 1

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    Jun 17, 2019
    With the series finished and having reread Marvel SW (2015) #7, 15, and 20, I agree now - the "Journals of Ben Kenobi" issues on the whole make more sense before the series than after, and the sabers must have been buried more recently.

    Obi-Wan's doubts about being a Jedi temporarily resolve, only to partially return, even in the Marvel issues - 15 and 20 a year after 7. And his and Owen's interactions in the comics would make less sense if placed after the series.
     
  16. Vthuil

    Vthuil Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Jan 3, 2013
    On this note:
    One thing I liked about the finale was that it apparently retconned TCW saying that Qui-Gon's spirit couldn't appear to Yoda because he died before completing the training for it, to here have Qui-Gon reestablish that the ability to perceive him was ultimately a matter of Obi-Wan's mental state. That would fit both with this and my own personal long-standing headcanon that dark-siders normally can't see Force ghosts at all.
     
  17. MercenaryAce

    MercenaryAce Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 10, 2005
    That is an interesting idea.

    It would certainly explain why, for example, Anakin wasn't able to give Kylo advice about not following his footseps towards the darkside.

    It does raise the question why Luke was able to see and interact with force ghosts despite his lack of training, and general borderline darkside implusiveness he struggled with.
     
  18. CosmoHender

    CosmoHender Jedi Master star 3

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    Dec 2, 2016
    Honestly, the thing about Qui-Gon being unable to come back as a Force Ghost because he never finished his training makes no sense to me. Anakin was able to show up as a Force Ghost almost immediately after his death despite having never been trained like Obi-Wan and Yoda have. Was that ever explained?
     
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  19. ConservativeJedi321

    ConservativeJedi321 Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Mar 19, 2016
    The Certain Point of View Book Elaborate that Quigon finished his training and learned to appear physically at some point during Ben's 20 year exile.
    Presumably its possible to learn the whole thing even after death as a justification for Anakins appearance.
     
    Last edited: Jun 22, 2022
  20. Coherent Axe

    Coherent Axe Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Dec 20, 2016
    Qui-Gon was the first of the modern Jedi to uncover the secret, so had to learn it from scratch; Anakin gets the benefit of not only stumbling on the key (selfless sacrifice) but also having Obi-Wan and Yoda's help to preserve his spirit, they having learned from Qui-Gon. Standing on the shoulders of giants and all that.
     
  21. Sinrebirth

    Sinrebirth Mod-Emperor of the EUC, Lit, RPF and SWC star 9 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Nov 15, 2004
    It's even more convoluted, I believe.

    The Legends Journal of Darth Vader, I believe, established that Obi-Wan taught Anakin quickly how to do it before his spirit passed on.

    Ignoring how loads of Jedi had appeared as blue spirits by that point in Legends.
     
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  22. QuiWanKenJin

    QuiWanKenJin Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 14, 2005
    I understand the High Republic era lets Jedi have families. But the Jedi Civil War before that did not allow it. But before that it was allowed. Any in universe logical explanation? [face_thinking]
     
  23. QuinlanSolo

    QuinlanSolo Jedi Knight star 1

    Registered:
    Jun 17, 2019
    One Canon-ish Force-ghosting thoughts:

    Qui-Gon says in the Yoda arc that his training was incomplete, and that's why his corporeal form did not become one with the Force, but he also says "I exist where there is no future or past." So the relation of Force-ghosts to time is a bit wibbly-wobbly. But they do seem to still be able change and grow in understanding even after becoming one with the Force. In the ROTS novel, Yoda tells Qui-Gon's voice that acquiring infinite knowledge (of the infinite mystery that is the Force) will require infinite time, and Qui-Gon tells him he will have the time. Likewise, in the Ryder Wyndam character biographies, Obi-Wan as a Force-ghost seems to learn even post-mortem, not realizing that Anakin was still the Chosen One until the very end. Pardon if this is a bit of a religious or sectarian reading, but perhaps this is an asymptotic approach to Being Itself, "Further up and further in!" in C.S. Lewis/Kathy Tyers terms. I think Buddhist or Aristotelian/Averroist readings of joining the Force as merging with a cosmic singularity would have a harder time explaining Force-ghosts both continuing to learn and retaining their identity, but Lucas was going for elements of both, whether or not they ultimately cohere logically. In any case, it would seem that Qui-Gon was able to complete his training post-mortem, and thus was able to appear visually in the Obi-Wan Kenobi TV series and in "Master and Apprentice" in FACPOV: ANH. Granted, it partially depended on Obi-Wan being willing or ready to see him, and his appearance draws on Obi-Wan's memories, but not entirely. And granted, Qui-Gon had already appeared corporeally on Mortis, but that seems to be because Mortis is utterly unique and the normal rules don't quite apply there.

    As to the training required, it involves becoming completely selfless - confronting and acknowledging one's own dark side/selfishness and being willing to let go. That is an exceptionally difficult state to achieve in the SW universe, and perhaps impossible out of it, but it's not complex like acrobatics or engineering. One exceptional heroic act of selflessness can get you there in SW, though it is possible to achieve that state without such an act (e.g., Yoda, though even he showed a willingness to do so in the visions in TCW). For Obi-Wan, it was sacrificing himself so Luke & Co. could escape the DS (though experiencing Force-ghosting from the inside can be pretty traumatic and disorienting if FACPOV: ANH "Time of Death" is any guide). For Anakin, facing up to his evil and sacrificing himself to kill Palpatine and bring balance to the Force was apparently enough - as Obi-Wan says in the Windham books. For Luke, it was sacrificing himself so the Resistance could survive. The same goes for Ben Solo in TROS - giving up his life to restore Rey's. It also probably helped that they all had their masters as psychopomps to prepare their way - Obi-Wan had Qui-Gon, Anakin had Obi-Wan, and Luke had Yoda to help him at the moment of death, and Leia's spirit waited for Ben so she could draw him across and they could Force-ghost together.

    It's not entirely clear that Anakin's body became one with the Force, or at least how or when exactly. His corporeal form shows up as a Force-ghost (reflecting Yoda and Obi-Wan's memories), and the suit was probably rigid enough to keep it's shape without him in it. That seems to be the implication of the Brian Daley radio drama - that Luke is burning the armor, not the body. But on the other hand, maybe bringing balance to the Force somehow changed the rules as far as Force-ghosting went. It would explain why in the old post-ROTJ EU that Force-ghosting was the norm. Maybe the Chosen One was now permanently serving at the threshold of the Netherworld of the Force as the psychopomp for all dying Jedi. As for the ancient Jedi past Force ghosts, per the Comics Companion, the teaching must have been lost until the Shaman of the Whills restored it to Qui-Gon.

    As for why Force-ghost Anakin never appeared to Ben Solo to warn him off the dark side, I'd blame Palpatine's grip on Ben's mind blocking him out. Since Qui-Gon appears to Maul in Stories of Jedi and Sith, "Ghosts of Maul," it seems that current canon isn't going with the idea that dark siders are completely incapable of seeing Force-ghosts. Even if they can, they might not believe they were real, but just illusions like the Sith "ghosts" haunting Korriban/Moriband.

     
    Last edited: Jun 24, 2022
  24. Sinrebirth

    Sinrebirth Mod-Emperor of the EUC, Lit, RPF and SWC star 9 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Nov 15, 2004
    Presumably someone is going to fall and ruin the family rule for the rest. [face_laugh]

    Who has a family in the HR era?
     
  25. MercenaryAce

    MercenaryAce Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 10, 2005
    I also have to ask this? In fact, just about the only High Republic jedi who has a love interest that I can remember* still has the rule against romantic relationships hanging over it - Lula is starting to second guess how much she wants the knighthood she has been working for her whole life because of it, and Zeen worries that she is holding Lula back by being around and wanting a relationship that a knight can't have...

    Closest thing I can remember is that the High Republic jedi seem to give some leeway to padawans fooling around and getting into romantic relationships, but one gets the impression they are supposed to get over that by the time they are knights.

    *As an aside, as much as I loved the Dark Horse Comics Clone Wars stuff, man they made the no romantic relationships thing more of a light suggestion than a rule, it felt like every major jedi character had a love interest or two except for Yoda and maybe Mace. It was hilarious.


    But yeah, overall in legends at least the jedi seemed to fluctuate on the idea a bit - sometimes the anti-family faction would be charge, sometimes the pro-family faction would be, and SWTOR had kind of a unique compromise where jedi could get married if they could prove to the council that they could handle it responsibly and it wouldn't be a problem.
     
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