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CT The Original Original Return of the Jedi

Discussion in 'Classic Trilogy' started by MidKnighT, Apr 12, 2022.

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Which Return of the Jedi Would You Have Preffered?

  1. The Return of the Jedi We Got

    19 vote(s)
    65.5%
  2. The Original Ideas of Return of the Jedi

    1 vote(s)
    3.4%
  3. A Mix of the Two

    9 vote(s)
    31.0%
  1. MidKnighT

    MidKnighT Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    May 23, 2005
    The commentary is quite a bit of a stretch.

    "but they lose so much in the beginning of this battle"

    One casualty is not losing.

    "But never do they actually overcome them."

    Yes they do. They capture the last group of imperials and blow up the shield generator. That's a huge win if you ask me.

    Gonna have to disagree with the author and say this fight was not believable in the slightest. It even took 7 year old me out of the story as I knew what I was watching was way over the top.

    I also disregard the Vietnam war argument as this was not guerilla warfare tactics. This was a direct conflict with the power of the imperials on Endor.
     
  2. macrobinoculars

    macrobinoculars Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    Dec 15, 2021
    I can still be a badly done Vietnam reference.
     
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  3. BlackRanger

    BlackRanger Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Apr 14, 2018
    If they'd had the Wookiees fight the Empire on Endor instead of the Ewoks, it would've been... gorilla warfare. ;)

    I'll see myself out.
     
  4. Sith Lord 2015

    Sith Lord 2015 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 30, 2015
    Maybe Lucas did intend it as a Vietnam reference, but IMO completely failed in execution. The Vietcong must have been a pretty formidable opponent. But what we got in ROTJ was.... TEDDY BEARS :rolleyes:. Sorry Lucas, I simply fail to take them seriously. Plus, it's not exactly good taste to try to make something as cruel and horrifying as that war kid-friendly. Either make a kid-friendly teddy bear movie or take a more mature approach and show how traumatic such a war really is. A mix of the two opposites simply doesn't work for me.
    LOTR got that right. It never tried to make the orcs, Nazgul or Uruk-hai "cute" or kid-friendly, yet I'm pretty sure the movies are VERY popular with children, as well as adults. I'm not bashing Lucas, but in this case, Peter Jackson succeeded where Lucas failed.
     
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2022
  5. Watcherwithin

    Watcherwithin Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Nov 9, 2017
    I don’t think the ewoks specifically were based on the Vietcong outside of the issue George Lucas says was on his mind of human spirit versus technology.
     
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  6. BlackRanger

    BlackRanger Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Apr 14, 2018
    In his notes on the 1974 rough draft Lucas specifically compared Princess Leia's home planet to North Vietnam and the Empire to "America ten years from now." So I wouldn't dismiss the comparison out of hand.
     
  7. Sarge

    Sarge Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Oct 4, 1998
    Hmm, future he sees. Difficult to read is future, always in motion.
     
  8. MidKnighT

    MidKnighT Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    May 23, 2005
    I just heard two more early ideas for ROTJ that were apparently shot down.

    One of them was Obi-Wan Kenobi coming back to life somehow!?!?! And with that it might have been Luke and Obi-Wan vs Vader and Palpatine. This is one idea I'm kinda glad did not happen but it wouldn't have been catastrophic like...

    The other idea that was shot down that could have been an idea sometime between the holiday special and ROTJ is Boba Fett being Darth Vader's brother?!?!?! Really glad they didn't do that one.
     
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  9. DARTH_BELO

    DARTH_BELO Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Nov 25, 2003
    I actually wouldn't have minded those original story points - which seem to lend themselves to what would've been an interesting Episode VII, VIII and IX. The only thing I would've preferred different are Luke and Leia still being siblings. That's about it.
     
  10. FightoftheForgotten

    FightoftheForgotten Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    May 19, 2020
    The Empire has always been the United States. The Emperor was Nixon. This idea carried through all the way to the PT. For those of us living in the States... yes, we're the baddies.
     
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  11. MidKnighT

    MidKnighT Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    May 23, 2005
    I don't see that. The empire always had Nazi Germany references and with the First Order there was even more Nazi symbolism.

    [​IMG]

    The only direct reference to the US in the PT/OT that I remember is the ROTS "If you're not with me..." which is a direct stab at the Bush doctrine. First time I saw ROTS in the theater I recognized the reference and thought it didn't make sense for what was happening in the movie. The worst part is that "Only a Sith deals in absolutes" is also an absolute. :confused:
     
    Last edited: Apr 28, 2022
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  12. FightoftheForgotten

    FightoftheForgotten Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    May 19, 2020
    Where do you think the Germans got the idea from? Read about what the U.S. did to the Native Americans. Look at what the U.S. done to marginalized people throughout our short history.

    GL has always compared the Empire to the United States. He based Palpatine off of Nixon. I'm not making this stuff up. You can Google these quotes if you'd like. They're easy to find. GL has always been open about it. GL even compared ROTS to what Bush was doing in the 2000's. GL said it was unintentional (again, it was based off Nixon), but even he couldn't help but notice the parallels.
     
    Last edited: Apr 28, 2022
  13. MidKnighT

    MidKnighT Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    May 23, 2005
    So based on what you said the empire is based on Nazi Germany who got their ideas from what Nixon did to the native Americans. :confused::confused::confused:

    The empire has always been based on Nazi Germany first and foremost. TFA made that even more obvious.

    There have been plenty of movies with "Native American" type references. The first that comes to mind is Avatar. I haven't seen that all that much in Star Wars but I'm sure there has been some.
     
  14. FightoftheForgotten

    FightoftheForgotten Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    May 19, 2020
    No. I'm saying the Germans read up on how the United States handled Native Americans when they went on their late-thirties tirade.

    On a different, but still related subject of America being shady... I'm saying GL based the Empire on the United States of the seventies. He's gone on record about this. Another poster even provided some quotes.

    TFA wasn't even made by George Lucas.

    Yes, and if you look to see where the N***'s got their ideas from... you end up looking at the U.S. If you follow the source of the inspiration then you end up at the U.S. Which AGAIN is why Palpatine is based off of Nixon.

    Then it sounds like you to need to read A LOT MORE about U.S. history.
     
    Last edited: Apr 28, 2022
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  15. MidKnighT

    MidKnighT Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    May 23, 2005
    Let's not hijack this thread and turn it into a political debate

    That said you still make no sense. The Nazis did not get their ideas from Nixon... Or the US for that matter. A lot of Hitler's ideas came from Friedrich Nietzsche. There's a good documentary on Nietzsche and the Nazis that I would recommend.

    Now let's try to get back on topic and how we got here. Some in this thread said that Lucas was going for Vietnam War guerilla tactics when it comes to the Ewoks. I say in that regard he failed horribly. The Ewoks did not use guerilla tactics. They took on the empire head on and won with rocks...over lasers. It's almost as ridiculous as Jar Jar accidentally taking out all kinds of trade federation tanks and bots.
     
  16. gezvader28

    gezvader28 Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Mar 22, 2003
    Hidden Fortress was all about the Watergate break-in . And Flash Gordon was inspired by Nixon's bombing of Cambodia.
     
  17. FightoftheForgotten

    FightoftheForgotten Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    May 19, 2020
    No one ever said that. Not me or anyone else. Do me a favor, read more.

    It's not a political debate. It's not a debate at all. You're simply misinformed.

    “Hi**er's concept of concentration camps as well as the practicality of genocide owed much, so he claimed, to his studies of English and United States history,” (John) Toland wrote in his book, Adolf Hitler: The Definitive Biography. “He admired the camps for Boer prisoners in South Africa and for the Indians in the wild west; and often praised to his inner circle the efficiency of America's extermination—by starvation and uneven combat—of the red s*v*ges who could not be tamed by captivity.”

    Again, no one is making this stuff up. You're just misinformed. Again, please read more about this subject.
     
    Last edited: Apr 28, 2022
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  18. MidKnighT

    MidKnighT Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    May 23, 2005
    Ridiculous. Hidden Fortress and Flash Gordon both predate Nixon by quite a lot.

    The Hidden Fortress movie came out in 1958.

    Flash Gordon first appeared in 1934.

    For the record Nixon was president before I was born so I'm not a Nixon lover or hater. I'm indifferent. That said I know enough to know that Hidden Fortress and Flash Gordon both predate Nixon by a lot.

    And @FightoftheForgotten I'm done with you. I don't engage with people who resort to personal attacks on here.

    Can we please get back on topic now and keep the politics to the appropriate forum?
     
    Last edited: Apr 28, 2022
  19. MidKnighT

    MidKnighT Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    May 23, 2005
    OK trying to get back on topic. Has anyone heard of these 2 items before?

    Boba Fett being Darth Vader's brother? Yuck.
     
  20. Kenneth Morgan

    Kenneth Morgan Chosen One star 5

    Registered:
    May 27, 1999
    As I understand it, and please correct me if I'm wrong, Palpatine was originally conceived as a Nixonian figure, using underhanded means to gain power. Not an evil genius, but an evil politician, later influenced by other corrupt figures. By TESB, he was revised to be a thoroughly evil Dark Side villain.
    The battle between the Empire and the Ewoks (originally the Wookies, before they were revised to be more technological) was meant as a Vietnam analogy, as a larger, more high-tech military force is effectively fought by a more primitive, more committed force.
    And I've never heard of the idea of the Empire specifically being meant as the equivalent of the U.S., beyond the battle in ROTJ. In execution, though, the Empire owes much more to Nazi Germany in appearance and action. The companion book to the "Star Wars" exhibit at the Air & Space Museum, which took place before the PT was made, gives a number of examples of this.
    And the whole "Fett is Vader's brother" thing is thoroughly new, and nonsensical, to me.
     
  21. gezvader28

    gezvader28 Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Mar 22, 2003
    Star wars has always had lots of influences , from the American Western to Samurai to King Arthur to WWII etc. etc.
     
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  22. BlackRanger

    BlackRanger Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Apr 14, 2018
    The Lucas quotes about the Empire being "America ten years from now" and Princess Leia's home planet being like North Vietnam (which the US fought against in the Vietnam War) are both from JW Rinzler's Making of SW book.
     
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  23. FightoftheForgotten

    FightoftheForgotten Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    May 19, 2020
    There are magazines articles from the early 80's where they talk about Boba Fett being Luke's mom, but those were the equivalent of click-bait back in the day.
     
  24. BlackRanger

    BlackRanger Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Apr 14, 2018
    I seem to remember Mark Hamill joking about it in vintage interviews.
     
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  25. screamsinthevoid

    screamsinthevoid Jedi Knight

    Registered:
    Nov 26, 2017
    George Lucas discussing the Vietnam influences on the original trilogy with James Cameron in 2018... and also from the 1983 Documentary From Star Wars To Jedi The Making Of A Saga ... George talks about it at the 55:44 minute mark in the video .
     
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