The Parthenon: Home for the Intellectual Discussion Welcome TKL and Art_Of_War, new Thread Hosts!!

You violated a rule?!! OMG!! I suppose I'll let it go this time.

Oh! Speaking of the rules. You should all check out wendynat's fic But, Master! Abolutely hilarious!! She does a little parody of the list that just makes me grin from ear to ear.

 

That's how me and my biologist beta's relationship started. She was grammar proofing for me, because I was living with my parents one summer and my ADHD thing was so worked up I was leaving words out all over the place and not catching them. The grammar bit was OK, but then she started in on some style/characterization issues and the cat-fight was on.

Here's a little on topic question: When proofing your own work do you read it out loud? I'm very particular about sound and everything I write is written to be read out loud. I read through each chapter/vig I post about four times for pacing and how the words sound together. I even do this for the stuff I beta. Do you guys do something along these lines as part of your proofing process?

 

I don't read material out loud, but I do tend to hear the character's voices in my head as I both write and read. That way I can tell if something sounds awkward or OOC. I tend to be very cinematic when I write -- that is, I can see the scene in my head as I write it. I think Stephen King in Misery once described it as having a hole open up in the paper as the author was typing his novel. But when I'm proofing I usually just read it on-screen. That's how I copyedit at work (I work for a magazine publisher), so I keep to the same process whether I'm copyediting my own work or betaing for someone else.

And no cracks about the crazy voices in my head!

 

Hmmm...
Crazy voices in GAV's head. I'll use that as leverage while I admit that I also occasionally use a metronome.

 

That's OK -- a few days ago I suddenly realized the reason I liked a certain line from "Forgotten Flowers" so much was that it had been written in iambic pentameter.

 

You proofread your work?

Actually, I do much the same thing in that I read out loud but not so loud as to have people hear me (that'd be too wierd).

GAV, who said your the voices in your head were crazy? The voices are fine. You're the crazy one.

 

You guys are funny.

I've had 3 people beta for me, 2 of them are here on this thread (Hi Souderwan and oqidaun!) and I generally listen to everything they say. Maybe it's because I consider all 3 of them smart and competent, but I like to follow the suggestions.

I've only posted two things that weren't read by a beta. I am trying to get better at judging my own work.

 

I never used to read my work out loud. But then this summer on vacation my husband was driving and I was working on my story, and he was getting sleepy and wanted me to talk to him to keep him awake. He suggested I read my latest chapter to him. I didn't like the idea at all, but I thought about it for a while and eventually did, and ended up enjoying it. So now I read stuff to him all the time - more than he wants to hear, probably. It's great for catching errors my eyes have skimmed over before - missing words and such.

 

I read to Jordan (my 8 year-old--he's my biggest fan). I love reading to him but those sessions usually occur long after I've proofread, beta'd and posted. I still find problems, though...

 

Kids really are the best people to test stuff on. I told my sister about the HP story I was writing at the time and every time I missed an update I got an email asking where it was. Her friends started to leave reviews for me - it was really cute.

 

I agree--you must know the rules before you break them. Although I break most of them with dialogue. My English teacher--and my boss--he hates "to be" verbs in sentences and only allows a certain number a page in stories that we wrote freshman and sophomore years. Maybe that should have mentioned as well, for I think that to always be reading "was" or "is" could be quite boring, unless you had a good reason for it. You could easily punch it up a bit with a better verb.

 

I talk through all my dialogue, which necessitates writing when no one's around. The silly thing is that I've creeped myself out before, so my baddies and I don't have long conversations. I don't talk to Badour at all.

 

Sometimes I read my work aloud - but only when no one is around. One time I was on a train with my friend and I was working on a chapter and, since we were both bored, she asked me to read it aloud. It was then that I realized just how hard some of the character's made-up names were. LOL. Now I know better and say the names out loud before I write them down.

 

Just remember your beta could be reading this...

 

Do I listen to my beta?

I find it an odd coincidence that ?beta? is an anagram for ?beat? since she beats me over the head with the few times I don?t (all in good fun!) listen to her . Personally, I have learned not to love the sound of my own voice so much that I cannot accept advice.

My first beta (and Master), Neo-Paladin, is constantly challenging me to explore new areas, think deeper thoughts, and keep my writing ?in motion? as far as verbs are concerned. He truly is incredible and I am continually amazed at the growth he encourages.

My mechanics beta rocks! I can?t imagine anyone better than GrandAdmiralV to have as a beta and I tend to trust her even when it goes against the gut (except for that one time which I will NEVER live down! ).

I am a beta myself and so I recognize that the red ink is meant to make you the best that you can possibly be. I also know the frustration of having lovingly gone over a post for a friend and then having nothing but the spelling corrected and *gasp!* then have them publicly acknowledge you as their beta to say, ?Thanks!? [face_doh] That was frustrating and embarrassing. As a result I take the time to follow my beta?s advice or, at the very least, let them know why I didn?t.


EDIT: Diane? I want friends like YOURS! They ASK you to read to them?

 

LOL. Only because there was nothing else to do and she hadn't read my latest post. But she did like it and I realized that it sounded pretty good - well, except for the names which I kept tripping over...LOL.

 

I talk through all my dialogue, which necessitates writing when no one's around. The silly thing is that I've creeped myself out before, so my baddies and I don't have long conversations.

That makes two of us. Except I don't have the good sense to do it alone so my son always looks at me like I've got horns growing out of my head.

Sometimes I read my work aloud - but only when no one is around. One time I was on a train with my friend and I was working on a chapter and, since we were both bored, she asked me to read it aloud. It was then that I realized just how hard some of the character's made-up names were. LOL.

That's funny! I worry about that myself. Is the name too hard to pronounce? It's so hard to come up with a good name that doesn't sound Earthy but can still be pronounced by the average person. I'm glad I'm not the only one who worries about these kinds of things.

I find it an odd coincidence that ?beta? is an anagram for ?beat? since she beats me over the head with the few times I don?t (all in good fun!) listen to her

LOL!


I am a beta myself and so I recognize that the red ink is meant to make you the best that you can possibly be. I also know the frustration of having lovingly gone over a post for a friend and then having nothing but the spelling corrected and *gasp!* then have them publicly acknowledge you as their beta to say, ?Thanks!? [face_doh] That was frustrating and embarrassing. As a result I take the time to follow my beta?s advice or, at the very least, let them know why I didn?t.


That's a great point, Z. I am always conscious of the fact that betaing is 1) A free service 2) Takes time and effort. So I always make sure I explain if I'm blowing something off (unless it's something that doesn't need explaining). I've beta'd for one or two people before who didn't take a single piece of input I gave and all I could think was "For the love of God, please don't tell anybody I beta'd for you!!"


Anyway all..sad to say, I'm off. I'm going to Florida for a wedding and won't be back until Monday. GAV has graciously offered to continue conversations and start up new topics. See you all when I get back. That stupid tropical storm is moving over Florida right now so I'll be driving through the rain....

 

And here I am, reporting for duty! <salutes> The unfortunate thing is that of course I can't edit Souderwan's original post to indicate a change in topic, so I'll just have to hope people wander in here on their own.

I got this idea from bouncing around on the boards for NaNoWriMo yesterday. Even if you're not planning on participating with the rest of us psychos, there are some great writing resource links on the site that are very helpful. One of the threads discussed clichés in fantasy literature and had a link to a hysterically funny site, Peter's Evil Overlord List. But that got me thinking. Which clichés do you think are the worst in SW fanfic, and what steps do you take to try and avoid them? Inquiring minds want to know!

 

The big one I find is making sure the Jedi in a story isn't invincible. Whether it's Luke, Leia, Anakin or Obi Wan. Because they're human they need to make mistakes, and it's these mistakes which give them deepth.

 

That link was hilarious! So many of those things apply to SW as well as ST.

Cliches...hmmm. In pro-fic EU, it drives me crazy when every book I read starts out with Han and Leia or one of the other heroes being involved a near-miss battle with Imperials and the Falcon always wins bc of the super-duper modifications Han has installed.

BTW, GrandAdmiral, Is your sig quote from Serenity?

 

I believe that's Kaylee's line. Plus Jon Stewart is god!

Probably my biggest pet peeves with cliches are that the Jedi always seem fight overwhelming odds and win (at least in the earlier books - the NJO series that was not true) - and they may pull out a new Jedi power just to save the day. This was especially true in the Jedi Academy series and it seems to be coming back again with the Dark Nest series....

 

Diane, I remember in one of the Jedi Academy books Luke walks across across a volcano or something--right on the lava! Pulling out a new Jedi power! LOL. So true.

And I love Jon Stewart as well!

 

Go Kaylee (yes, that's her line in my sig)! And go Jon Stewart, the one voice of sanity in our world! Oh, and go see Serenity! Multiple times!

We now return you to our regularly scheduled broadcast....

Yep, that was in Jedi Search. I remember thinking, "Oh, how...convenient!"

The one cliché I really try to avoid is one-dimensional Imperial characters. You can disagree with their principles or their tactics, but I want you to know them better as people and at least understand why they do what they do. In the Jedi Academy books KJA's Imp characters were so completely brainless and one-sided it was laughable. Drove me nuts! In a way, I think I started Dust of Empire as a rebuttal to idiots like Furgan and Tol Sivron.

 

LOL. That was the one saving grace for those books. I loved the whole scene where the ship is breaking up and they have a committee meeting about what to do about it. And keep changing their minds. And go to look it up in the manual! It was classic.

 

Oh, it was so completely unbelievable to me. How could anyone actually be that stupid? I guess KJA was going for the comic-relief angle, but still! After all, if you make your villains that laughable, then the heroes' victory over them doesn't have much meaning, does it?