PT The plan in AOTC

Yet, his plan ended up biting him in the ass, years later. Whatever big picture Palpatine had seen wasn't big enough.

 

i always think it’s hilarious when people explain my own points back to me. I’ve probably done that to though.

 

Yeah. Palpatine's ability to see the future correctly was dead wrong... twice. I think he's always seeing possible futures. It's never 100% the future. Its what could or likely will come to pass.

This is total speculation on my part, but I think Force Ghosts might have had something to do with Palpatine not seeing a big enough picture.

Remember how the Sith hid things in the Force from the Jedi. The Sith did something to create blind spots for the Jedi. An entire clone army was hidden from them. They worked with a Sith Lord in person without knowing it.

I'm wondering if when Yoda became one with the Force he didn't do something similar to Palpatine's ability to see the future. There is that line in ROTJ about Vader knowing Luke is on Endor but the Emperor not sensing it. Is it possible Yoda died when he did to give Luke a fighting chance with the Emperor. So whatever futures Palpatine was seeing, the one where Vader throwns him down a hole is blocked out.

Then in The Rise of Skywalker we see Palpatine in a place that seems to super charge him powers. He goes to destroy Rey when a number of Jedi spirits arrive to support / backup Rey. It seems like their combined strength is what reflects Palpatine's own powers back destroying him.

 

Yes they would and no, it is not an assumption to say that the Kamino people would not want 1,2 million clones just sitting there given they would have to feed and house them until the Republic picks up their army.

The lack of war also has no impact on the Kamino people.
The army was ordered when there was no war, why would they not deliver it to the Republic UNLESS said republic was at war?
Do they have a rule that says "You can order armies from us but unless you are at war when the army is ready, we will not give it to you."

Sorry, that makes no sense.

So, the Kamino people WILL contact the senate/republic eventually.
Remember, the army was not quite ready when Obi-Wan showed up. 200 000 soldiers were ready, with a million more well underway.

First, Palpatine should not be making plans that will look better on film unless you argue he knows he is in a movie.
Second, the Jedi only use the army after the senate have given Palpatine powers to ok it.
And it is very likely that they were ordered to use the army so it was not their choice.
Third, given the film, the Jedi have loads of reason to not trust the clones.
They are aware of an apparent disparity in the time line, that Sifo-Dyas was dead when he supposedly ordered the army.
They know that their records have been tampered with and Kamino removed.
That the clone template has never heard of Sifo-Dyas, the Jedi that supposedly ordered this army and was hired by someone else.
Said clone template actually works for Dooku, a former Jedi now turned to the dark side and is working with knows sith associates and is building an army for his own.
In all, the Jedi have tons of reasons to smell a whole host of rats.

If instead the Jedi only find about the army when Palpatine informs the senate then they will not know the date mismatch, the tampering of their archives, they will not know about Jango, that he hasn't heard of Sifo-Dyas or that he works for Dooku.
In all, the Jedi would have substantially LESS reasons to smell a rat.
it would still be iffy but far less than it is now.

No date is given yes because the SW films don't have an established date system.
So Obi-Wan can't say "Sifo-Dyas was killed april 3rd 1999 and the order for the clone army was placed October 15th 1999."
But Obi-Wan knows both the date of Sifo-Dyas death and the date the army was ordered and according to him, Sifo-Dyas was killed before the army was ordered.
If he was unsure when Sifo-Dyas died, it would take two seconds to ask Mace and Yoda and have them confirm it.
This plus Jango never having heard of Sifo-Dyas paints a big question mark over who really ordered the army and the Jedi know it.

Oh yes.
1) Padme is killed in the first attempt.
2) Zam gets away.
3) Zam is captured and interrogated indoors, making it impossible for Jango to shoot her.
4) Obi-Wan does not talk to Dex.
5) Obi-Wan blurts out something wrong when talking to the Kamino people, like that the senate never placed this order etc.
6) Jango is killed, Jango is captured, Jango kills Obi-Wan.

Look at the film, the blast knocked Padme back and shrapnel flew all over the place. She could easily have gotten hit and died.
Had the ship blown up in space then Padme using a decoy would have made her safer.
If the bomb was on the ship, which what it looks like in the film, then why did Zam wait to blown it up until after it landed?
There is a false trail implicating some Naboo miners so if the bomb was on the ship better then to blow it up in space, that would further implicate those miners as the bomb was put there on Naboo.
If the bomb was on the platform then such a blast could damage the platform and cause it to fall, killing Padme.

If Jango kills Zam when the Jedi are not there then how does he get her body to them and how does he make it look like she was behind the hit on Padme?
Just leave her dead body outside the Jedi temple with a note saying "This is the person that tried to kill senator Amidala."?
If Jango was under orders to kill Zam and make sure the Jedi found her and if he was keeping watch over her, then the best place to shoot her would be when the droid is coming back with Obi-Wan hanging from it. This makes sure that she won't get away and the Jedi will find her dead body and she will not have time to say anything.

If Jango is caught on Coruscant the Jedi have no need to go to Kamino.
If he talks then the Jedi would know that Dooku was the one who hired him to be the template for the clone army. Said Dooku that is currently leading a seps movement and he also is involved in making an army for the Republic. Sound very sporting of him. If Obi-Wan is killed on Kamino before he can make a report, the Jedi know nothing and they would have to send someone else.
If he killed after he has made his first report then the senate won't know of Dooku's plan with his big droid army, the senate won't give Palpatine extra powers and the clone army won't be approved, at least not as fast.

Jango does not want to get caught, that is very clear.
If he is told to use a very specific weapon that could be traced to the place where he lives right now for NO reason. Then him being a somewhat clever person could suspect that he is being set up.
That his use of this very specific weapon and to kill Zam in such a way that the Jedi find her, the only reason for doing this is to make sure the Jedi are lead to Kamino.
If Jango's life is threatened, which the film don't indicate, then why not grab his son and gear from Kamino before doing this?
Then the Jedi can go to Kamino all they want, he is no longer there.

I don't think it is very strong writing to go "We need a chase scene here." regardless if it makes any sense or not.
And if the "plan" required Obi-Wan to grab on to the droid like a "madman" otherwise Zam gets away.
Does not make much sense.
For that matter, why did the droid not simply self-destruct? Since it was programmed to react if noticed why not destroy itself or fly away from it's owner?
Flying right back to the person that sent it is not very smart.

I have never subscribed to this idea that Palpatine has this Uber-powerful ability to foresee things.
First because in TPM I think it is clear that he didn't plan or foresaw Padme escaping and coming to Coruscant and I doubt he foresaw the destruction of the first DS, Luke and Leia's existence, he didn't sense or foresaw Luke coming to Endor.
Second, to me, giving him a massive advantage in that he can foresee things years in advance and in minute details, that makes his victory less impressive to me. He has such a huge leg up over everyone else that it would be hard for him to loose. He does not need to be clever, he gets tons of future knowledge handed to him and he just follows their lead.
Third, I have and still see Palpatine instead as someone that can think on his feet. He has plans yes but they are malleable enough that he can adapt to unexpected events and still come out ahead.
He didn't plan for Padme to come to Coruscant in TPM but he adapted his plans and it worked out well. His loss of Maul was unplanned but he was able to get Dooku and that gave him further advantages.
This way Palpatine is shown as quite smart and clever and he wins because of that, not just because he knows all that will happen.
Him making overly convoluted plans that could seriously backfire does not strike me as something a clever man as he engaging in.

What I think happened in the OT is that he became overconfident. He had won, the Jedi were gone, the empire was in place and he had subverted the Jedi prophecy and got their chose one on his side.
So he grew a bit complacent and too sure of himself.
In the PT, given that there was just two sith against the whole Jedi order, Palpatine had to be on his toes a lot more. Any slip up by him could lead to his death and years/centuries of work becoming undone.

And if Padme had the cameras in her room pointed at the window or told R2 to watch said window as that is by far the most likely spot for an attack, those bugs would have been spotted, Jedi or no Jedi.
Why is Padme sleeping in a room with a big window any way?
Cutting through it was not hard and had the droid had a more direct weapon, like a bomb or gas, then Padme would be dead.

What might have made more sense is Padme sleeps in a room deep inside the building. Zam knows this and she uses her shape-shifting abilities, she goes to the tower, kills one of the guards and assumes his shape. Then she is able to let loose the bugs in the ventilation system, say that they are keyed to Padme's smell or something. So they climb up to her room. Now the bugs makes sense for Zam as a bomb or gas is not practical as she can't get close.
And if you want a chase scene, the jedi cut up the bugs, realize that someone in the building let them loose and locks the place down. So Zam can't get out. They go through the floors looking for the assassin and while she looks like she is a Naboo guard, the Jedi sense something off from her and she needs to make a break for it. She is able to blast her way outside, grabs a speeder and flies off and Obi-Wan and Anakin follow.

In closing, remember Palpatine and Dooku set the clone army in motion ten years ago.
Did they have the whole Jango, Zam, kill Padme, dart thing worked out ten years in advance?
If not, did they have some other plan or did they go "Oh I am sure we will think of something."
I think they did have a plan and it was simple, the Kamino people will contact the senate/republic when the army is ready.
By then Dooku should have the seps ready and so he just needs to make a threat and the war starts.
Starting a war is easy when you run both sides.

Bye for now.
Old Stoneface

 

We might be more in agreement than it seems about this while at the same time seeing things very differently.

The future is always changing. It's all a possibility until it happens.

I think Palpatine sees more of a general big picture of many possible futures. When he finds a future that suits the plans of the Sith, he can trace that back to an inciting event. He doesn't see all the little details in-between. For TPM he can foresee a future that results in his being Chancellor. And Palpatine can see that a Trade Federation siege of Naboo can set up that future.

Agreed - Palpatine doesn't see Padme escaping or the Naboo teaming up with the Gungans to defeat the Trade Federation. And he's fine with that. Palpatine has faith in the end results of his predictions happening. Again that future is not set in stone until it happens. So Palpatine may see the end results start to change. At that point he'll either need to take further direct action to steer events towards his desired outcome, or he'll see a new future that works better and he'll adapt his plans.

I'm not sure Palpatine didn't know about Luke and Leia's existence. While allowing either of them to be trained by Yoda or Obi-Wan could create a powerful enemy, if they're turned to the Dark Side it would create a more powerful apprentice. There are a lot of reasons why Palpatine would hide the Skywalker twins from Darth Vader.

The destruction of the first Death Star also brought out Luke Skywalker. Is that the actual result Palpatine was hoping for? Maybe he didn't even see the Death Star being destroyed, he just saw a new more powerful apprentice.

As for Palpatine not foreseeing Luke on Endor. Was this the work of Yoda? Palpatine used the Force to hide things from the Jedi during the Clone Wars. Do you think Yoda a Force Ghost effected Palpatine?

Seeing the future does give Palpatine a huge advantage, but I don't think he sees the future in minute detail. Palpatine sees the broad strokes and Palpatine sees the outcomes he is looking for. What he doesn't see are all the steps and details between the present and how that outcome is reached.

Palpatine still needs to be clever because the future is always changing. It's not a fixed point he predicts. It's not destiny. Palpatine pushes current events to go his way and that push create it's own ripples that change things more. So Palpatine needs to be on his toes. He needs to see the best way to exploit the changing future and continuously adapt his plans. Sometimes he follows the lead of the future knowledge handed to him. Other times he must drive events in the present to create the future he wants.

I also think the Jedi see the future, but they never try to bend it to their own will. They go with the flow of the Force. They follow. The Sith lead and push the future. What the Jedi don't know is that the Sith have tampered with their ability to see the future. They're not seeing the full picture. Worse yet is that the Jedi don't know they're missing anything. That's a huge weakness for the Jedi.

So Palpatine still needs to be clever but he also has a huge advantage.

Totally agree. Palpatine sees a future he wants. He does the basics setting the people for events to follow that path. But Palpatine doesn't see all the ways it can play out. Or all the ways it can change. So he has to think on his feet. And he also needs to have faith in the path leading to his orignal vision. Palpatine is willing to make sacrifices in the moment for bigger future success. The ends justify the means.

Agreed Palpatine didn't plan for Padme coming to Coruscant. If the Force is still showing his desired future, then he rolls with current events, adapting his plan as events progress. Agreed again about loosing Maul too. He gained Dooku and even more importantly Maul directly lead to Anakin. And Maul killing Qui-Gon left Anakin much more vulnerable to the Dark Side. Palpatine didn't know this would happen but uses it all to his advantage.

I think Palpatine sees an end result he wants in the future. Then he finds the inciting actions that will move events towards that future. He sets up that inciting actions. That is the extent of his plans. He lets events play out on their own from there. No need for convoluted plans requiring impossible timing or setting up unlikley coincidences. Those can all happen on their own.

Take Palpatine's plan in Attack of the Clones. He doesn't need to tell Jango Fett to hire Zam and have her use bugs on her second attempt to kill Padme. Or tell Jango to kill Zam with a Saber Dart.

Palpatine just needs to know the larger strokes. Send Jango Fett to Corusant when Padme, Anakin, and Obi-Wan are all there. From there events will work out how he wants. But Palpatine doesn't know in advanced exactly how that happens.

So Palpatine is still smart and clever. It's just that he has a huge advantage. Yet at the same time the only way to use that advantage is being smart and clever.

I think the more powerful Palpatine became the better he was at seeing the future and the sure he was in his own abilities. The more resources he had thanks to the Empire and the more freely he could use them the easier it was for him to directly steer events to his desired future.

It's amazing how he twisted the Jedi prophecy to his own ends. Completely agree that he grew a bit complacent and too sure of himself. And that's exactly what happened with the Jedi. The Jedi were so sure they knew what was going on through the Force that they trusted the Force over their other senses. It was impossible for the Sith to return. They would have seen it. It was impossible for there to be a Clone Army - they'd of known. And there wasn't even a blank spot. It wasn't like the Jedi saw an empty spot or black hole. They thought they were getting the complete picture.

I actually think once Yoda became one with the Force, the Jedi Spirits did something to cloud Palpatine's foresight. They hid the future from Palpatine the same way he had hid events from the Jedi. But the Jedi did it with little things. Important moments. Possible futures. They hid Luke on Endor. Vader's turn of heart. They removed Palpatine's advantage without Palpatine being aware of it. They gave Luke and Anakin a fair shot.

Leia's role in TROS shows us that in death Jedi can effect events and the Force in larger more spiritual way. And we see how the Force Spirits helped Rey stand up to Palpatine.

These are great questions. I suppose they are using Padme as bait. That's why she's sleeping in that room at all. Also they might not realize how much danger Padme is really in. Like why is she actually sleeping? Couldn't she just fake it?

Great point about using bugs. Why use those? Was the attack meant to not look like an attack? Would a sting by the bugs look like a health issue and not poison? Why didn't the droid leave as soon as the bugs were dropped in the room? Were the bugs supposed to return and the droid would fix the window?

I like your idea for Zam's attack. It is pretty cool when Obi-Wan leaps out the window.

As for far in advance plans.

No I don't think Palpatine and Dooku knew Jango would be sent to kill Padme when he was hired as the Clone Template. As time was getting close for the war to start, that is what they saw in the Force as the path of least resistance getting to their end goals. And they don't know all the details, they just know to use Jango. And I doubt Dooku knows about Padme and Anakin.

They don't say "Oh I am sure we will think of something." They say "When the time comes the Force will help guide our plans."

I don't think the Kamino people could just contact the senate/republic. A key part of the Clone Wars is that the army needs to show up fully formed and go into action. There is no discussion by the Senate. No vote. No reveal to the people of the galaxy. No choice on accepting or using the army. There is a crisis point. Action is taken. War is started. It's out of the politicians hands. The only thing left to do is win the war.

 

I think if TPM had done a better job of showing us how Palpatine thinks on his feet, AOTC would be an easier pill to swallow. Instead, we're just supposed to accept that Palpatine is super smart and can out think everyone. George wanted to have this ridiculously smart character without putting in the leg work of actually conveying it to the audience.

 

Read the script of Revenge of the Sith.

If you listen carefully to everything Palpatine says, it almost always ties into the story in some unexpected way.

The easiest starting point to notice this is to listen to everytime Sidious mentions Grievous to the audience.

In ROTS it is a constant reference to at what stage the plot is at.
From the first moment, he deflects the attention to Dooku (to Anakin and Obi-Wan), then tells Mace exactly when he will make his move, with "the war will continue as long as Grievous is still alive".

Then mentions him, and his location, while he tries to reel in Anakin during the opera scene, and when it is "reported" Grievous has been engaged with Obi-Wan.

Maybe it is obvious, but it is overlooked by a surprising amount of people.

 

Just gonna offer a quick two-cents on the ‘Jango being captured’. Remember, dude’s a bounty hunter. Whose to say he doesn’t have any backup plans in case he does get captured? Like maybe some kind of poison he keeps on his person that he injects or consumes so that the next time his captors come into his cell for questioning, all they find is Jango’s corpse.

After all, I’m sure there have been plenty of cases throughout our own history of prisoners taking their own lives before they can be questioned. If I were Jango, I’d definitely want this as an absolute last resort option and there was no other way for me to escape.

 

Maybe they would've contacted them. Maybe they wouldn't have. But the republic would have no need of one, without the war starting, and Palpatine getting the emergency powers, which came about from Jar Jar suggesting it, which came from Padme leaving him in charge.

I didn't mean that in that way.

The jedi use the army after Obi-Wan has been captured and Yoda comes in after the jedi have lost the fight. Would the jedi have been so willing to do that, otherwise? They may not have. But I think the situation gets the jedi involved and that starts the war.

I would suggest they'd have more of a reason if Palpatine is the one making the offer. If they think a jedi had it happen, based on info they uncover, I can see them being more willing to use them.

No matter what happens, an investigation by the jedi would allow them to find the disparity in the timeline, if there was one. But no one ever mentions an active disparity. Obi-Wan says he thought it happened before it. Mace and Yoda don't acknowledge a disparity in the timeline in that scene. They say that whoever did it didn't have the authorization of the council. We actually don't know, based on what that scene says, if there was disparity in the timeline, for certain.

And the jedi could've discovered all of this with or without that. Investigation into the situation could always lead to the kamino deletion, to Jango and thus Dooku. I can agree, with the idea that the situation is forced, but I think it'd be more suspicious to the jedi of Palpatine if he was the one who introduced the clone army to them. As it stands, in the movie, Palpatine could have no knowledge of that at all that he's not given by the jedi, as far as they know. I think that covers his behind more. In the movie, as far as the certain information they've gathered says, a jedi ordered the army, a jedi discovered the army and the jedi are the ones who began using them first, to defend the jedi themselves.

The movie itself doesn't confirm that there is a disparity in the timeline. Obi-Wan theorizes there is, but no one confirms it in that scene.

1) Padme uses decoys and I think Palp would know that. Plus the whole sensing thing I guess he can do.
2) I think that assumes Zam would get away and wouldn't be killed by Jango at some point no matter what.
3) I wouldn't suggest Jango couldn't still find a way shoot her as she's indoors.
4) Maybe. But why wouldn't Obi-Wan use any means to look into the situation?
5) Would that cause many problems? If Palp still gets the emergency powers and still makes the call for the army I don't see the kaminoans caring either way.
6) Are those things going wrong for Palp? If captured, I don't see Jango have info that could hurt him really, he seems to give Obi-Wan the situation he was hired for in regards to Tyrannus. If killed, I don't see Palp caring that much. Same with killing Obi.

I think that's movie logic on display.

I'm not necessarily one to assume a bomb was absolutely on the ship.

That assumes the point was to actually implicate them and not only appear to implicate them.

I wouldn't assume it wouldn't be figured that jedi wouldn't be able to find the body somehow. they do sense things.

If I remember correctly, as soon as Zam sees Obi, she tries to shoot him and get away.

I don't necessarily think that's the case. Finding out who this guy is and where he came from may help their investigation.
Would they know it was Dooku? Or would Jango only know him by Tyrannus?
I don't see how them needing to send someone else would hurt Palpatine.
You said yourself they could send someone else.

This doesn't mean he'd question being told to use the dart, if he was. Even in the movie, itself, the dart can't be traced by droids, it's said.
I wouldn't %100 assume it's necessarily being threatened, but I think Jango could potentially consider that his life would be on the line if he disobeyed or failed, considering the situation.

I didn't mean it like that.

Not necessarily.

If I remember correctly, it was Jango's order to Zam in how to do this.

 

I think it would have tied the trilogy together if Dooku would have used Qui-Gon's identity to order the Clone Army instead of the convolutedness of Sifo-Dyas.

 

Maybe, but I think Qui-Gon being Obi-Wan's master, Obi may more know if that's something he'd done. Though I would prefer some changes be made.

 

Wow - we just watched this last night so perfect thread for me to stumble on! Hmmmm. Lots to digest here but ultimately it comes down to Palpatines amazing ability to manipulate the little things to set larger actions in motion as others have eluded to. Like asking for ObiWan to watch over Padme. Im pretty sure he knew that Anakin and her were ripe for a hookup and he would need this down the road. Palps also has created a cloud or veil over the Jedis ability to sens anything so that further adds to the confusion and uncertainty. As others have mentioned - palps is a great "quick thinker and can adjust his plan as needed which he does several times. The guy would be a good NFL coach as far as making defensive ajustments at halftime to stop the other teams offense. .

The part Im still cofused with is who actually orderded this army? Was it Syfo Dias and then he was later murdered so he couldnt speak of it? Was it Palptine himself(usig the name Syfo Dias) at some point? Did Darth Tyranus(Dooku) actually order it via requested by Palpatine to do so? Maybe I missed something but Ive never quite sorted out who placed the actual order. Pardon me for being naive, Ive seen the film dozens of times but this always makes me wonder.

The plot does seem convoluted at times but its a great watch nontheless and a lot happens in AOTC that is paramount to the Star wars universe.

 

I heard here there are two legends sources with conflicting explanations (or it might have been one explanation for legends EU and one for nu-canon).

The explanation I prefer is that Sifo Dyas indeed ordered the army out of fear when he discovered the Sith's plans. He places the order, then his friend Dooku betrays and kills him (as part of his becoming Darth Tyrannus). Dooku then claims the army for the Sith. And Sifo Dyas ordered it in secret and was killed before he could follow through on it, so the Jedi don't know.

The more... boring .... explanation is that Sidious ordered the army posing as Sifo Dyas from the start - Sifo-Dyas = Sido-Dious = Sidious.

 

Thanks to The Clone Wars we have a bit more solid info. Sifo Dyas was a respected Jedi Master on the Jedi Council. He began having visions of a galaxy wide war ten or so years in the future. There would not be enough Jedi to protect the Republic in this war. For the Republic to survive an army would be needed. There was still time if the Jedi acted fast to have this army ready when the war started.

The only problem was Sifo Dyas was the lone Jedi able to see this vision. The other Jedi searched the Force, meditated, etc. None of them foresaw anything about a looming war. The Jedi Council ruled not to create an army. But Sifo Dyas was admit. His visions were so clear and vivid he couldn't back down. The Jedi needed to raise an army before it was too late.

The rest of the council asked Sifo Dyas to let it go. He wouldn't. Then they told him to let it go. It became such an problem Sifo Dyas had to leave the Jedi Council. (Not sure if he was kicked off the council or quite before they had to kick him off.)

After that Sifo Dyas goes back out into the galaxy to do the work of Jedi. He's still determined to start the army. The when of events gets unclear after that. At some point Dooku finds out that Sifo Dyas plans to order a clone army. Chancellor Valorum personally asks Sifo Dyas to help him settle a problem with the Pykes. Sifo Dyas is accompanied by Valorum's personal aid Silman.

The negotiations with the Pykes are cut short when the Jedi Council asks Sifo Dyas to immediately help with an emergency on Felucia. The Pykes are contacted by a man named Tyranus who has a deal for them. As Sifo Dyas and Silman leave the Pyke world in a shuttle, they are attacked and shot down by the Pikes. Sifo Dyas dies in the crash. His body is then given to Tyranus.

Later the Jedi are alerted that Sifo Dyas was killed on Felucia. Another Jedi brougth body to a village where his remains were cremated. The Jedi never find out the identify of the other Jedi.

Then during the Clone Wars the beacon on Sifo Dyas crashed shuttle is detected on a Pike moon. Plo Coon investigates, finding Sifo Dias lightsaber.

Obi-Wan and Anakin are sent to investigate. They discover Silman is still alive and help prisioner all these year. That's when Dooku shows up and chokes Silman. The Pykes call Dooku Tyranus. So the Jedi know Dooku was somehow involved with the Clone Army. But it's too late to stop using them.

 

The novel Force Collector shows a recording made by Sifo-Dyas during his crash on Obah Diah - which wasn't found till the ST-era:



"This is Master Sifo-Dyas, en-route to the desert moon that orbits Oba Diah. I'm with ... with - Silman, flying emergency survival capsule number 775519, and our long-range transmitter has been knocked out. We're under attack by the Pykes, and I'm preparing to jettison this project in hopes that it will be found, and-"

[static]

"And the truth is, we won't make it out of this alive. If that's the case, so be it. But there are things that mustn't be lost. This is what it's come to - and I want ... | want everyone to understand that I've done my best. Some may disagree with my methods, but these are desperate times and someone, somewhere should know: as you are aware, I have seen a vision of the future that I feel warrants an army. You've disagreed with me, but I felt I had no choice. Therefore I have ordered one: a clone army from the Kaminoans. Something must be done, and I have made that decision. It may haunt me, and-"

[static]

"or then again, maybe I won't have to live with that decision very long at all."

"Hurry - we can't take another hit like that!"

"Come find me!"

 

I really don’t think Jango meant to be followed. Maybe Sidious foresaw that events would play out as they did one way or another, but Jango would be far from in on the Sith plot.
Obi-Wan was lucky that Dex was able to identify the dart. It’s possible that Sidious wanted the Jedi to find the cloning facility, but I can’t see why Jango would be a part of the scheme. As far as he is concerned, the Jedi are trying to bust him for an assassination attempt and he needs to evade them.

One may wonder why he went straight to the Separatist stronghold with Obi-Wan on his tail.
In the asteroid field, it really seemed like Jango meant to finish Obi-Wan off rather than let him get captured by Dooku.

 

Or Jango had no idea he was being used by Palpatine and Dooku to draw the Jedi to Kamino.

 

And Jango thought Obi-Wan dead when the rocket hit the junk the Jedistarfighter released before Impact and on the Slave 1 Scanner the Starfighter disappeared and seemd destroyed. So why waiting?

 

They would have contacted the Senate/Republic, anything else means that the Kamino will just let 1,2 million troops sit there, collecting dust.
So the Senate WILL be told about the Clone army.

And as for starting the war, again very easy.
Once the Kamino have contacted the senate about the clone army, Palpatine can just tell Dooku to make a public threat. Dooku does, the senate realizes that Dooku and the seps means to attack them and thus they do what they did in the film, give Palpatine his extra powers, he approves the clone army and the war starts. Simple.

If Dooku makes a threat with his new droid army or if he goes so far to attack republic worlds.
And if the senate has given Palpatine extra powers and he has approved the use of the clone army and he tells the Jedi "The Republic is under attack, take command of the clone army and defend it."
Why would the Jedi refuse?
They are the guardians of the Republic. If said Republic is attacked and the elected leader of the republic orders them to defend it, what reason do the Jedi have to say no?

Palpatine is the elected leader of the republic and the Jedi serve the republic and take orders from him/the senate. If Palpatine informs the senate and the Jedi that he was just contacted by the Kamino and they have a clone army for them, one apparently ordered by a Jedi.
The Jedi would be surprised, just like they were in the film but they have nothing that makes Palpatine seem fishy. He was just contacted, he was not the one who contacted anyone.

Obi-Wan mentions a time disparity and he is never proven wrong. Thus, until the films prove him wrong, what he says stands.
Also, if the Jedi are told about the army the same time as the senate and the war starts soon after, they might not have time for an investigation as they are quite busy.
Or Palpatine can order an inquiry from the senate, arguing that the Jedi are seemingly involved in this so this needs to be handled by someone else.

Again, Obi-Wan is not proven wrong so I will assume he is correct until I have reason to think otherwise.
And why have Obi-Wan say what he said if the audience is just supposed to ignore it?

And no, any investigating later would NOT reveal what the Jedi found out in the film.
1) Jango would not be there and so the Jedi will not know of any Tyrannus, they will not know that Jango was involved in the hit on Padme and they will not know that he has never heard of Sifo-Dyas.
At most the will get a name, nothing more.
They will also not know that Jango works for Dooku.
2) Their archives, if the Jedi get the location of Kamino from a briefing in the senate, they will have no reason to go to their archives, they will just go.
So the Jedi will not know that their archives have been tampered with and kamino removed.

So the Jedi will learn far less than they did in the film.

1) Again the blast could easily have killed Padme as well, a bomb is not very specific. And sensing, that gives Palpatine the ability to sense things in incredible detail.
2) If Zam is killed somewhere else, the jedi will not know about it, see below.
3) Doing that places Jango much more at risk.
4) Unless Palpatine can foresee everything, he would not know that Obi-Wan might just forget to talk to Dex. Or that Dex was away, or not available.
5) It is still a risk and an unnecessary one.
6) Jango would know that it was Dooku that hired him to be the clone army template, that would be very valuable info to the Jedi. If Jango was indeed ordered to try and fail to kill Padme and lead the Jedi to Kamino, that info is also useful to the Jedi. Now they know that they are being manipulated.
In short, Jango getting caught and talking would be bad for Palpatine even if Jango can not implicate him.

The blast came from within the ship, so it looked like the bomb was onboard the ship.
Which as I mention raises question.
If the bomb was on the plattform, that makes more sense but does not match with how the blast happens.

We have no idea if this false trail was meant as serious false trail or not as the film does not go into detail.
But nothing from what Mace said indicated that the Jedi had seen through the Kamino miners thing and concluded that it was a false trail.

On a whole planet?
First, the Jedi sensing things have never been showed to be that exact and second, the film makes it clear that the Jedi's ability to sense things is getting weaker.
So no, if Jango had shot Zam in some alley then I don't think the Jedi will ever find out about it.

Yes and IF Jango was watching her all the time and IF he had orders to shoot her with the dart and for the Jedi to find her body, then shooting her at that moment is perfect. The jedi will find her body with the dart, job well done. Letting her escape runs the risk of her getting away from the jedi, which means Jango will now have to find some way of getting her dead body, with the dart, to the Jedi's attention.

Jango is not from Kamino, he just worked there. What the Jedi want to find out is who hired him to kill Padme.
Jango knows Dooku and since Dooku is Tyrannus, he would know that too unless Tyrannus wore a mask when he hired Jango, which is not mentioned in the film.
If the plan was to lead Obi-Wan to both Kamino and then to Geonosis, then if Obi-Wan is killed on Kamino means that another person will not be able to deduce that Jango went to Geonosis and thus the plan fails.

If he is ordered to use the dart but also assured that it can't be traced, the obvious question to anyone would be "Why use the dart for no reason? Why not just shoot her with a blaster?"
The ONLY reason to use a highly specific weapon and making sure the Jedi find said weapon is to lead the Jedi somewhere.
Jango would realize this unless he is a moron.
So if ordered to use the dart, on pain of death if he does not but at the same time assured that the dart can not be traced. This screams of set-up and again Jango would realize this unless he stupid.

I don't follow?
Did Jango know that Obi-Wan would grab the droid, that the droid would not self-destruct and fly back to Zam?
And this bit is odd, Jango gives the bugs to Zam, who walks over and puts them into the droid.
Jango could have done that.

To sum up,
The Sith have NO reason to engage in this convoluted plot as the army WILL become know when the Kamino contacts the senate and the war WILL start once Dooku makes a threat.
Much simpler and much less risk of failure.

I will try and make my answer a bit short as this post have gotten long. Don't get me wrong, you did raise several good points but I am trying (and failing) to be less long-winded.

Your idea is that Palpatine gets a vision or he asks the Force, "How can I become chancellor?" and the Force gives an answer, "Blockade Naboo."
So he knows the broad strokes of what he has to do but not the details.
To me this still takes away from his cunning, he does not have to think up the overall plan, he just gets it handed to him. He needs to manage the details so he can't be stupid.
But I just like it better if Palpatine is the one who thinks of the overall plan as well.
That he saw the situation before TPM, that Valurum was weak, the TF was greedy and could be exploited so he set out to cause a crisis, one that he figured that Valorum would be unable to deal with, Valorum would get removed and he could take his place. And he could get some sympathy votes as Naboo was his planet.

He still has his foresight but he uses it to see if some major unforeseen event might happen.
Events can still happen that he didn't plan or or did foresee but he is quick on his feet and adapts.

This might seem a small distinction but to me it matters. Getting handed the broad strokes of a plan, "Blockade Naboo and you will become chancellor." that makes him less clever, even if he has to manage the details.
If Palpatine is the one who thinks up his overall plans and he maybe tweaks them after using his foresight, that means he is the one making the plans, he is not just getting them on a silver platter.

Some comments;

I don't know, there is nothing in the films that supports this.
Palpatine never mentions Leia and Vader only finds out about her because he read Luke's mind.

The loss of the DS would be a major blow to the Empire and a massive win for the rebels.
It is a project that Palpatine has worked on for 20 years. I doubt he would toss it aside on a whim.

It was more than just not foreseeing Luke, he did not even sense him. Vader did.

The Jedi are also aware that the future is not set, that it always changing. So what they see might not happen.

But several posters here do argue that Palpatine DID have a detailed plan.
That he told Dooku to use Jango to kill Padme but ordered him to fail, then Jango was ordered to use the bugs, he was ordered to shoot Zam with the dart in a way that the Jedi found the body. And so on.

But again this makes him seem less smart to me. The Force tells him "Do this and things will work out." and Palpatine just goes "Ok." he does not have to think that hard, he just follows what the Force tells him and he gets what he wants.

Why Jango was sent I think is this, Padme opposes the army bill and her opposition is strong enough that it can delay or derail it. Palpatine does not want that. Nute has put Padme's death as a condition to join the seps, that Palpatine wants.
So he plans to kill two birds with one stone, kill Padme to please Nute and get the army bill to pass.
That was it, no plan to lead the Jedi anywhere or have Anakin and Padme fall in love.
But the first hit fails so he has to adapt, when the second hit fails, he adapts again. He sends Padme away, that will at least rid him of one obstacle.

I think as he rules the Empire he relied less on foresight, he did not need it anymore.
He had a massive advantage while before he at a massive disadvantage, it was just him and his apprentice against the whole Jedi order.

If she is bait, have the cameras pointed at the window as that is the most obvious mean for an attack.
Or have R2 watch the window.

Given how deadly they seemed to be, death by natural causes seem unlikely. Plus there would be bite marks.
And Padme was hit by a bomb earlier, trying to make it look like an accident or natural causes did not seem to be a priority.
The most likely explanation why bugs is that Padme's room had sensors that would detect any weapon, explosive or deadly gas and sound the alert. So using something biological could be a way around that.
But the film mentions nothing of this.

But again, this makes them seem less bright. They set things in motion without any plan on how to act later and just goes "Oh I am sure the Force will tell us what to do when the time comes."
If instead they placed the order, knowing that the Kamino would contact the senate when it was ready and Dooku knew he had about ten years to get his seps ready.
Then once the army is known, Dooku makes a threat and the war starts.

The Kamino WILL contact the senate, they can not have 1,2 million clones just sit there for weeks, months or years waiting for the senate to call. There is zero reason given why they would not contact the senate given that they think the army was ordered by said senate.
Plus, the clone army was NOT ready in AotC. 200 000 were ready, with a million more well under way.
Also, Dooku's seps forces were also not totally ready, not all had signed his treaty, the droid army was still being made.
In all, I think that events in AotC were a bit before what the Sith had planned. Not that long, say a few months.

And if the Kamino contact the senate/Palpatine and says "Your army is ready." Then there can be debate about it, as it seems there was between Obi-Wan reporting from Kamino and his second report from Geonosis. Some time did pass between those two events.
But when the senate is talking about the clone army then suddenly Dooku makes a very public threat and he unveils his droid army or perhaps simply attacks some republic worlds. Then the senate is in the same position as they were in the film, Dooku and seps will/are attacking and they need the clone army.
So give extra powers to Palpatine and the war starts.
Simple.

Well I don't read any EU, I have a simple motto, I don't give credit to things not in the films because they were not IN the films.
If a filmmaker wants me to be aware of something, put it IN the film. Putting in some book, comic, game etc does not cut it. The films have to be able to stand on their own and not require 15 books to make sense.

So based on the film, Sifo-Dyas had nothing to do with the clone army, he was dead when the order was placed.
Either Dooku killed him so they could use his name or Dooku just used the name of a recently killed Jedi master when ordering the army.
And I doubt Palpatine was the one who was there to place the order, he needs to be in the shadows so there is no chance that this can be tied to him.
So Dooku most likely. Possibly under some disguise so that the kamino people won't get suspicious if they see Dooku's face as the head of the seps.
Dooku then hired Jango, told the Kamino to expect him, deleted all info about Kamino from the Jedi archives and their plan, as I've mentioned above, was just to have the Kamino contact the senate when the army was ready and the war starts.

That the army was really ordered by Sifo-Dyas, again I am ignoring the EU here.
From a film perspective, this is weak storytelling.
The army is ordered by a person we never see and we have no idea why he did this.
We also don't know how the sith got involved, did they manipulate Sifo-Dyas or was it just a lucky break that he did this?
Further, how could Sifo-Dyas have paid for this, the Kamino care about money so I would expect them to demand some money upfront.
Then there is Jango, since he has never even heard of Sifo-Dyas, if it really was Sifo-Dyas that placed the order, he could not have told the Kamino about Jango or that he would be the template.

This plot point, to me, suffers from not being all that well thought out and having last minute changes.
During filming, it was "Sido-Dyas" ie Sidious. They Jedi knew that no such Jedi existed and they suspected that someone in the senate was behind this, possibly out to start a war.
Jango also said Darth Tyrannus and the Jedi knew that this was a sith.
This was likely too obvious so during pick ups it was changed to Sifo-Dyas, a real but dead Jedi.
And Jango did not say Darth just Tyrannus.
But we have Obi-wan saying that he thinks that Sifo-Dyas was killed before that army was ordered.
So the implication is that he didn't order the army and Mace and Yoda are aware of that.
So we still have the Jedi with an army that was likely ordered under a false name.
If the goal of the film was to make it seem that it really was Sifo-Dyas that placed the order, why have those lines IN the film?
I know that RotS was supposed to deal more with Sifo-Dyas and this plot but that didn't happen.
Leaving this plot point unresolved.

Bye for now.
Blackboard Monitor

 

Lots to digest in this thread and a great topic. I mainly agree with @Samuel Vimes , the easier plan would have been that Padme died and the Jedi didn't know about the clones until they were at their doorstep fighting for them. It means there's less seed of doubt, and you could even argue without as much doubt from certain Jedi, Order 66 may have even ran more smoothly which is of course to the benefit of Palpatine's plans.

I do agree with other posters that Palpatine sees many futures and as such has multiple contingency plans in place, and knowing the Jedi are a little docile at this point and won't cause too much of a scene even if they have doubts, he doesn't really fear them discovering Kamino and the clones early even if he'd preferably like to avoid it.

I think the initial assassination attempt on Padme was supposed to fail to set up Anakin and Obi with her and distract while Palpatine set to work on some other stuff, as was sending Padme out of the way so that he could manipulate Jar Jar.

There's no way he'd have foreseen things completely unrelated like Obi-Wan happening to know a guy who will identify a toxic dart, so that wasn't part of the plan.

I really like this idea, maybe both Dooku and Sifo-Dyas were investigating the Sith following reports of them being alive and at large, and either Dooku was turned during and killed Sifo, or Sifo was killed and Dooku 'realised' the futility of attempting to fight them, with how well integrated they had become into Republican society.

 

To me, the pretty clear implication from the movie is that Dooku killed Syfo-Dyas and then ordered the army under his name. Sifo-Dyas himself couldn't have ordered the army because he was dead before the order was placed, and indeed Jango was hired by "Tyrannus" and had never heard of Sifo-Dyas.. That's how the audience and to a lesser extent the Jedi know that something is up with this army, which is why I can't imagine Obi-wan finding Kamino and getting this kind of information was ever part of Palpatine's plan.

 

I think what Palpatine sees in the future is even less detailed than that. It's not asking the Force so much as seeing different outcomes. He sees a bunch of things that could be and then pushes towards the ones he wants to pass.

And for Palpatine to even find the Naboo Blockade leading to chancellor path takes a lot of skill and foresight. I don't think he's handed these visions. It would take work and time to find them.

Yes! I agree 100%. He's not given plans on a silver platter. Palpatine looks at the future and from that makes his plans. He's pushing events, steering the present to the future he wants. It gives Palpatine an advantage. But this is a skill he has. He is actively reading and changing the future.

Kamino would eventually contact the Senate. I think part of Palpatine's big plan is that the Clone Army needs to go into use before that can happen. Bottom line is the Jedi and Senate can't be allowed time to investigate the Clones before the Republic is dependant on the Clones. Springing the army into use at Geonosis supersedes any debate. They are already in action. They are a nesseity.

On the flip side, if the Sepertists knew about a Clone Army in advanced, they'd be must less likely to rebel. If they knew about the Clones I doubt they'd of done it. They think the Republic is powerless to stop them. They don't really want a war. They think the Republic can't stand up to them.

The Clone Wars still leaves it up in the air on who placed the actual clone army order. I guess this new book with it's transmission is the only thing that says Sifo Dyas did the ordering himself.

 

Well, that, and the official Databank:
http://www.starwars.com/databank/sifo-dyas


A member of the Jedi Council before the blockade of Naboo, Sifo-Dyas believed the galaxy would soon be plunged into war, and agitated for the Republic to create an army for its defense. After the other Jedi rejected his ideas and removed him from the council, he secretly contacted the Kaminoans and commissioned them to create a clone army, which he led the Kaminoans to believe was for the Republic. In doing so, Sifo-Dyas became an unwitting pawn of the Sith, who took over the project and hired the Pyke Syndicate to murder Sifo-Dyas on Oba Diah’s moon.

 

Thank you for the Databank entry. That's all the facts told in a succinct way.

It's all there yet there are still so many questions.

Were Sifo-Dyas visions real or a Sith trick? Why coudln't the other Jedi also see this future? Did this start as a Sith plan? Or was this Sifo-Dyas idea first and the Sith hijacked it? Could it have been both, like a self fulling prophecy? How did Dooku become involved?

At least now we know more about Sifo-Dyas and why his ordering the Clone Army isn't a surprise to the Jedi.

 

Palpatine would have been two steps ahead of everyone here. I think he would have placed her in just enough danger, knowing it would likely have its intended effect on Anakin: protection, attachment, fear, etc. He would have known that Padme used 'doubles'. However, if she had actually been killed in that or subsequent assassination attempts (e.g., the worms), then so much the better: one more formidable potential opponent out of the way.