PT The plan in AOTC

was Palpatine hoping that Padme dying would push Anakin towards the dark side? He must have known how Anakin felt even back then considering how close they were. I'm talking about at the start of AOTC and the assassination attempt.

 

Interesting, so canonically it was definitely Sifo-Dyas who ordered the Clones. It does throw into question what Palpatine's plan before that would have been to have gotten the Sith in the power seat of the galaxy.

I haven't read much of the canonical EU but wasn't the plan in action for years and years before Palpatine was even born? Started by previous Sith lords and then guided by Plageuis and finally Palpatine who succeeded in finishing the plan.

If so - it seems a little lucky that Sifo-Dyas was the one to have really brought the plan to fruition, however unwittingly.

I think the initial assassination attempt was intended to fail. As other posters have said, it was intended to distract more than actually succeed in killing her, and to set up Obi-Wan and Anakin guarding her.

The second assassination attempt with the worms was probably meant to go either way. Deliberately using organic lifeforms to kill, so that the Jedi would sense them. If they failed to get there in time then Anakin feels like a failure, and becomes instantly closer to the Dark Side and more malleable to corrupt. If they succeed (which of course they did) then Anakin will grow more attached to Padme meaning when she does eventually get killed, Anakin will be even closer to the Dark Side.

 

Where did the money come from, I'd like to know. I would think the creation of the clones would require - at minimum - a down payment.

 

Well, despite Palpatine's wealth, Dooku was an aristocrat and had his own wealth too. If not that, Dooku and Sidious could have finessed the Banking Clan to give them loans in exchange for more political power in the Senate.

 

Sidious is orchestrating the end game of a 1,000 year long plot to wipe out the Jedi. I’d imagine that the Sith had plenty of credits stored up by that point.

 

When he became a Jedi did he lose his right to the wealth from his family's estate? If so, did he get it back when he left the Jedi order?

 

But to me, Palpatine was smart and clever first and foremost and he used his foresight to supplement that.
Having him be more about the foresight and less about being clever, again that makes him less smart to me.

He made his plans based on what he knew, that Valorum was weak, the TF were greedy, the senate was corrupt and thus he set certain things in motion. So he made his plans first and then, maybe, he used his foresight to see if something major would interfere with it.

Again it might seem like a minor distinction but to me, getting visions/hints/clues through the Force and then making a plan requires less cleverness than making a plan first as the former gives you a leg up without needing much intelligence.

But to come back to something you said about the PT Jedi, that they trusted the Force over their other senses.
I would agree, to me it seemed that the PT Jedi had grown reliant on the Force telling them what was up.
That they were used to the Force given them a hint like "In six months there will be a violent uprising on Delpa Five" and so on.
And when they no longer get these "messages", they are lost. They have used the Force to do their thinking for them for so long that left to their own devices, they are floundering.

Palpatine on the other hand can beat them because he isn't that reliant on the Force, he can think for himself, he is clever and intelligent.
Also, the sith had been around for 1000 years, plotting and scheming so why now?
Those other sith could also see the future but what made Palpatine different is him being smarter than them. In my opinion. He could use his own brain and make plans in addition to his foresight.

Lastly about this, you say that Palpatine does not need to know the details, only the broad strokes, and he figures the rest will just work out. This makes him less smart, he just goes "Oh I will do this and I win, the details are not important."
I see Palpatine as very much about details, "The details are everything.", that he would not leave things to chance. That he would want to have as few random variables as possible.

But you are overlooking the fact that Palpatine, through Dooku, controls the seps.
So as soon as the Kamino contacts the senate, Palpatine can contact Dooku and say "The clone army is now known, make a public threat in about 48 hours."
And events play out the same as in the film.
The senate is told about the clone army but before they can seriously look into it, a big threat appears and they panic and use the army and the war starts.

What I think the plan was is this;
1) Get the army bill though the senate. Padme opposes it and Nute want her dead so they decide to have her killed. She is killed, the bill passes but just passing the bill won't make an army appear. Making one means drafting people, building ships etc. So the Republic won't have an army for quite a while.
2) Meanwhile Dooku finalizes his treaty with the seps and finishes his new droid army. This takes a few weeks or maybe 2-3 months. Dooku can even use the army bill as a rallying dry "The Republic means to keep us in by force, they are oppressors!"
3) The clone army is fully ready and the Kamino contacts the senate and as I said above, Palpatine lets Dooku know that their plan is ready. Dooku makes a threat or simply attack some republic world, the clone army is used and war begins.
Simple.
Far simpler than this convoluted mess of having Jango shoot Zam with a dart to get the Jedi to Kamino and then to Geonosis and all that.
And this is something that Palpatine and Dooku can plan out when they order the army instead of figuring that the Force will give them some hints later.

@Deliveranze

But if, as some suggest here, that it was Sifo-Dyas that ordered the army.
If a down payment was needed and I think that was, where did he get the money from?
He was a Jedi so no money.

Bye for now.
Old Stoneface

 

True, the Jedi can't own anything personally. That doesn't necessarily mean they don't have ways of getting things financed. For example, who financed the Jedi Temple (looks pretty expensive to me), those starfighters, lightsabers (they build them themselves, but the material has to come from somewhere) etc? In short, the individual Jedi can't own anything, which doesn't mean the order as a collective has no financial means. Or they are entirely financed by the Republic.
Look at the real life Catholic church. The average village priest may be "poor", but the Vatican must be one of the richest, if not THE richest, "state" in the entire world.

 

I got the notion that the Jedi order is financed by the Republic. They serve the senate/republic and have done for many centuries.
So the money comes from the republic. An individual Jedi might have some money, Qui-Gon had some money in TPM. If that was his own money or that he had been given at the start of the mission is up for debate.
So the Jedi order as a whole would have quite a bit of money.
But say the army was ordered by Sifo-Dyas and if it was, then he was clearly acting on his own.
So then it is very unlikely that he would be able to use any of the money the Jedi order had.
Had the order been sanctioned and agreed by the Jedi council, then that money might be used.
But by Sifo-Dyas alone?
Not likely.

Bye for now.
Blackboard Monitor

 

No, certainly not by him alone. And just because Windu denies it doesn't mean it didn't happen. After all it happened decades ago. Maybe Windu wasn't even in the Jedi council back then. Maybe the Jedi in charge of ordering the clone army kept it secret from all Jedi but a few masters (who are no longer alive)? Besides, we still don't know who this Sifo-Dyas is in the first place. We only hear the name from the Kamino leaders. The Jedi pretend to not know him. In fact Windu's reaction is so "exaggerated" that I suspect he knows more than he admits. In any case it's very unlikely that Sifo-Dyas acted completely on his own, as you said yourself. I find it more plausible that all that was indeed approved by the council AND the Republic, and Windu is simply lying.

 

No, it didn't happen decadeS ago, the army was ordered less than ONE decade ago. Obi-Wan says the order was placed "almost ten years ago." So soon after TPM and Mace was part of the council then.
So this theory does not work.

Second, where does the Jedi "pretend to not know him"? Obi-Wan knows who he is, he even knows when he died and that he was killed and he says as much.
Jango says he has never heard of Sifo-Dyas, so is that who you are talking about?

Third, is Mace reaction "exaggerated"? I would not call it that. He simply says, "No, WHOEVER made that order.." Implying that he agrees with Obi-Wan, that it wasn't Sifo-Dyas but he does not know who really did.

Lastly, the idea that Mace is lying or that the council did order the army and are just lying to Obi-Wan. Right after Obi-Wan has made his report, Yoda and Mace talk about how they did not see this army being created. It is just the two of them so if the army order was known to them, the scene and their dialogue makes no sense. And I don't assume characters are lying for no reason.
And for the Jedi to have been involved, that raises more questions;
Why was order 66 put there? It means their deaths.
How did the Sith find out?

So no, I find nothing in the films to suggest the Jedi or Sifo-Dyas as having anything to do with the army.
Sifo-Dyas was killed, likely by Dooku, who then posed as him when ordering the army. He hired Jango, told the Kamino to expect him, deleted all info about Kamino and then left the order.

Bye for now.
The Guarding Dark

 

This is the first time I've heard the whole 'Jedi pretending to not know' theory. Samuel Vimes summarized it better than I'm doing it now, I'm just curious where it came from.

The Jedi clearly had no idea this had happened. Hence Yoda's "Blind we are, if the creation of the Clone army we could not see." Which would make absolutely zero sense if they knew. I thought the movie made the point crystal clear. All they knew was that Sifo had been killed a decade prior. That was it. The whole 'Sifo creating a clone army' thing as per the Kaminos is news for them -- they had no idea anyone was doing that, much less a Jedi operating without the authority of the Council.

As for Jango, his client is a man named Tyrannus. Evidently he was told to go to Kamino at some point and donate his DNA for the clone army. The why is probably wholly irrelevant for him, especially if enough credits were given to him. He follows the money and if he's smart (which he most likely is) he won't ask too many questions.

 

My theory is Palpatine had a hit on Padme to involve Anakin, so Anakin would form an attachment with Padme which would make Anakin vulnerable to giving into the Dark Side (Passion is a tenent of The Sith). Both Palpatine and Padme are from Naboo, so it makes sense he’d select her, plus the already obvious connection Young Anakin had to her.

 

But Anakin already had an attachment to Padme.
He had spent ten years dreaming/thinking about her.
So why bother to create something that was already there?

If he wanted just to bring Padme and Anakin together, he could do that at any time.
But the timing here is about the army vote and that Nute wants Padme dead.
So Palpatine has two reason to kill Padme, she is in the way of the army bill and he needs to please Nute.
If Padme died, that would affect Anakin and Palpatine could use that to sell his "stop death spell."

Bye for now.
Old Stoneface

 

Anakin and Padme formed an attachment, Palpatine could see this in TPM, especially at the Pax Festival at the end. Sidious is a shrewd one, he put a hit on Padme to get the Jedi involved, and he suggests to Padme, “how about an old friend like Master Kenobi,” knowing Anakin is his apprentice because we see Anakin meeting with him in private, “they’ve finally given you an assignment, your patience has paid off,” Anakin retorts, “your guidance more than my patience.” Palpatine wants Anakin to be with Padme, because he knows he can control him via his passion for her. Yes he did put the hit on Padme for Nute Gunnray, but Sheev has many strings in his puppetry, he needs Padme to form a bond to Anakin, so that Anakin will be a slave to his passion for her which leads to ROTS when he falls to the Dark Side to save her life, “I can’t live without her.”

 

This jives with me. Palpatine knew of the Jedis weakness and milked it quite perfectly for his own benefit. This is all spelled out in the films pretty directly. And yes, Jango like most of us would just take the cash and shutup. Hes just a "simple man trying to make his was in the universe". That quote actually fits well. I guess this all mostly works if you think it through and pay attention to what gets said and when. The Sifo-Dyas angle might never be fully explained but Im good with the whole thing and this is why AOTC is such a solid and under-rated SW film. There is a lot going on that leads directly into the events that take place over the course of the next several films. Its great stuff.

 

Except this assumes a lot of things.
1) That Palpatine knew that the first hit would fail.
2) That Padme would respond in kind Anakin. Palpatine likely knows that Anakin has the hots for Padme but the reverse is not established. So what if Padme rejects his advances?
3) That Palpatine would know that Anakin would get a vision of Padme dying in RotS and thus get desperate.

In all, it pretty much means that Palpatine has to have read the script.

Bye for now.
Old Stoneface

 

I am sure Palpatine had a contingency plan, hence “The Jedi are trying to take over!” Palaptine is the only mentor who treated Anakin as gifted and as the potential Chosen One or Sith’ari.

Obi-Wan, Yoda, Mace Windu, and the rest of Council treated Anakin as a threat and were acting like he was a Jedi to be ashamed of. Its as if they resented his power and didn’t want him to become The Chosen One.

Only Qui-Gin and Sheev Palpatine believed in Anakin.

 

True, Anakin had an attachment, but at that point it was unrequited love. Padmé had no interest in Anakin aside from maybe seeing him as some kind of friend, "that little boy from Tatooine". Padmé falling for Anakin would probably - no, very likely - never have happened if not for that trip to Naboo. Padmé might still have been sent away, even to Naboo, but maybe with another Jedi, while Anakin might have stayed on Coruscant or sent on another mission. In fact, he may not have seen Padmé for a long time, if at all, in that case. Her "turning point" was those days at the lake country on Naboo.
The fact that Anakin was chosen was purely the Jedi's decision, mainly Obi-Wan's and Yoda's. For a change, Sidious had nothing to do with it in this case. I don't remember what exactly he said to the Jedi after the murder attempt on Padmé. But whatever it was the final decision WHO among the Jedi was to be chosen for the task lay entirely with the Jedi. And they had absolutely no reason to listen to the chancellor, a politician who was in no way part of the Jedi order and had no say in internal Jedi affairs.

 

Except, Padme was protesting Palpatine’s decision, she didn’t want more security. Palpys suggesting Obi-Wan was genius, the Jedi would consider it because the suggestion was to make Padme more amenable:


Palpatine: Master Jedi, may I suggest the Senator be placed under the protection of your graces.
Sen. Bail Organa: You really think that is a wise decision during these stressful times?
Padme: Chancellor, if I may comment, I do not believe...
Palpatine: The situation is that serious? Oh, but I do, Senator. I realize all too well that additional security might be disruptive for you, but... perhaps someone you're familiar with. An old friend, like... Master Kenobi.
Mace Windu: That’s possible, Obi-Wan has juat returned from a border dispute on Auntion.

 

Would they have? Considering it was a jedi who ordered it, whose to say if they would've contacted them or the jedi?

Would that get the jedi involved like that? In the movie Mace says they're not soldiers. Maybe the jedi would've been more resistant has Dooku not captured Obi-Wan and other jedi not been killed.

Mace's own declaration that they're not soldiers. I think we have no direct confirmation the jedi would automatically jump to their how high. I can see the jedi getting more personally involved being the trigger.

He theorizes there's a disparity and is never proven right. No official date is given for either the army being ordered or Sifo being killed. If there's a disparity, why would wouldn't they say so? What Mace replies with was simply that whoever did didn't have the council's approval.

Who says Jango wouldn't be there? Jango only leaves when he's been caught. I don't think I was talking about the hit on Padme, but about the suspicious nature of the clone army order.
They could easily still look into the kamino location from the archives.

1. I was more referring to sensing that Padme wouldn't be in the ship itself. I think it's not a strong argument to point to shrapnel. This is a movie. But also, if the shrapnel kills her, I think it's not out of the question that Palp would re-organize his scheme.
2. Wouldn't they? Who says they couldn't be made to find it? Who says they couldn't try to sense her?
3. I think that may depend on how he does it.
4. Whose to say Palp doesn't know about Dex, just by normal info about Obi-Wan?
5. I don't automatically think that.
6. Jango, as said in the movie, was hired by a man named Tyrannus, not Dooku. The jedi learn that Dooku was behind it anyway. This all also assumes how much Jango knows and whether he knows he was supposed to fail and not just told what to do and how to do it.

With the type of weapons in this world, I'm not gonna assume that the bomb would necessarily be on the ship. It could've been a blaster weapon fired at the fuel area or whatever for all we know. As far as how the blast happens, I think the movie angle applies. How an explosion happens may not always be realistic.

We don't know. But the jedi end up finding out otherwise.

I think it depends on where it's been placed. I wouldn't necessarily assume the body would be dropped on the other end of the planet.

Maybe he would've if the situation hadn't gone pear-shaped. In the midst of the fictional world of the movies, I wouldn't count on there not being room for error.

I wouldn't automatically count on Jango being so privy to the minutiae of the plan.

When caught between question the orders and face death or follow orders without full knowledge of the situation, I wouldn't automatically count on someone like him not just following the order.

I don't know what Jango knew. I think that Jango was given orders to give to Zam.
Why would Jango do that, if the plan was to use someone else?

Maybe they don't. But I think in the grand scheme of things, I think they use the situation to help their plan. I think the situation as it plays out can be considered to get the jedi more involved in the situation.

Is that implied. I don't remember thinking that.

I think it may show uncertainty from Mace about the situation, but not necesarily be that agrees with Obi-Wan.

 

Plapatine’s Electrium stash.

 

Well, then how come the Jedi didn't send Kenobi instead of Anakin? The council obviously found Anakin to be too immature, despite his many victories and battles during those 10 years as a Padawan. And Kenobi most definitely SHOULD have sensed Anakin's attraction to her. Hell, Anakin TOLD him to his face. "I'd rather dream about Padmé. Her simple presence is .... intoxicating", or something very similar. I don't remember the exact words. How more direct could he possibly have been? All alarm bells should have gone off there with Kenobi. But his reaction? ZERO! Shouldn't he at least have mentioned the situation to Mace?
From a purely logical point of view, Kenobi should have been the one to take Padmé to Naboo. Another Jedi, maybe even Anakin, could have handled the Kamino investigation.

 

The Council didn’t send Kenobi alone because Anakin is his Padawan learner and must accompany his master.

However, this precedent was broken when Anakin was assigned to protect Padme alone om Naboo. That was an odd choice to be sure. Esscially because the whole, “intoxicating” comfession came out of Ani before this. Someone else should have been assigned to protect Padme, which gives me the suspicion Palpatine somehow was involved in the set up. Much like he later meddled in Jedi matters by appointing Anakin as his representafive on the Jedi Council.

 

Fair enough. But then why did they separate them after all? Why not have Anakin go with Kenobi to Kamino? Any other Jedi could have protected Padmé. It turned out she was perfectly safe on Naboo, with or without Anakin. Besides, surely the Jedi could have spared a single council member to go with Padmé. Or even a normal Jedi, not a master, would have been enough. Anakin was not even that, just a Padawan learner.
But you are right, the only explanation that really makes sense is that Sidious was somehow behind the decision.