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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

PT The plan in AOTC

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by DBPirate, Jun 22, 2020.

  1. Kato Sai

    Kato Sai Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Apr 27, 2014
    It was odd for sure. To give Anakin full charge of Padme, especially after his confessio that he would “rather drram of Padme.” In addition to Palpatine Meddling, the Jedi Council may have been testing Anakin or worse, hoping the fling would run its course; kinda like popes and preists in the Renaissance who had mistresses.
     
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  2. KyleKartan

    KyleKartan Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Feb 4, 2004
    First of all I think that Anakins confession to Obi-Wan about Padme before the second assination attempt was kept between those two characters. Obi-Wan didnt tell anybody about anything that concearned the relatioship between Anakin and Padme until the end. He kept that for himself. He says to Anakin "be mindful of your thoughs they betray you". He knows about Anakins feelings for Padme but wont get out to tell anyone. Putting TCW in context its possible that does that because of his experiences with Satine.

    Second I would say they split up Anakin and Obi-Wan for some reasons. First its because Obi-Wan needs to investigate. He had the first contact with the clues and they need him to be kept involved. As Anakin says Investigation is included in the mandate to protect Padme so they're keeping the Jedi already assigned to protecting her and adjust his mandate. Second reason I see is Padme would refuse any other protector for herself other then one of the two Jedi already involved. She was against it in the first place and adding new or different people for security again would for sure make her object against any more security stuff. Last its a rather simple job and servers rather well for a young but experienced and skilled Padawan learner.They know Anakin is very very skilled ("That Boy has exeptional skills") and he can protect Padme very well so they use that Job as Training and test for him. They also wish away Obi-Wans remarks about Anakin not beeing ready and beeing arrogant because of the prophecy.
     
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  3. Sith Lord 2015

    Sith Lord 2015 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 30, 2015
    Well, he SHOULD have, at least to Mace or Yoda, if not the whole council. But he must have had his reasons. In any case, where he failed most in that respect is not taking Anakin's feelings seriously, and most importantly, he should have sat down with Anakin and have and earnest talk with him, warn him of his feelings for Padmé and give him some guidance. After all he is his MASTER. I don't see how he takes that role seriously enough.
    I haven't seen TCW, but didn't it happen AFTER AOTC? So at the beginning of AOTC Obi-Wan didn't have a relationship, am I right?
    Would she really? My guess is that with some persuasion by Kenobi, Yoda and possibly Windu (or even Palpatine, whom she had no reason to distrust at that point), she might finally have accepted another bodyguard. What she didn't like was "going into hiding", not necessarily going to Naboo with a strange Jedi.
     
  4. dagenspear

    dagenspear Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Sep 9, 2015
    As far as I've heard/seen, they knew eachother before that, when he was Qui-Gon's padawan, and he and Qui-Gon were assigned to protect her or something.
     
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  5. Samuel Vimes

    Samuel Vimes Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 4, 2012
    Sorry for not responding sooner and I only have a little time, hopefully I will be able to get back to the rest.

    Yes they would contact someone because they can't have millions of troopers just sitting there, taking up space and costing money.
    As for who they would contact, that is the Senate as they are the ones who ordered the army.
    "Sifo-Dyas" was just a messenger, he acted on behalf of the senate, at least as far as the Kamino think.
    the army is for the republic and the senate was the one who ordered it built.

    Why would the Kamino contact the Jedi?
    And if they would, then that makes the plan much worse. If something unexpected happens and the Kamino needs to contact someone to inform them that there is a delay. If they contact the Jedi, then the plan is ruined. Now the Jedi know about it far sooner than expected.

    So did the plan involve Jango leading Obi-Wan to Geonosis?
    It must have if that was it took for the jedi to become involved.
    And did Palpatine know that Obi-Wan would get caught?
    Again he must have if the plan hinged on Obi-Wan being a prisoner in order for the Jedi to get involved.

    The Jedi are the protectors of the Republic and they obey the senate.
    I can not see any way if the republic is attacked, by forces that include known sith allies, and the senate asks the Jedi to do their job and protect the republic and the Jedi go "Screw you, you can all die!"

    Mace was talking about a possibility that the seps could turn violent and attack the republic and according to him, there were not enough Jedi to protect said republic. They were just peace-keepers, not an army.
    I did not get the idea that the Jedi would just let the seps do what they wanted and not lift a finger to help the republic.
    Just that they alone can not win a war, they are too few.

    His lines are IN the film, why are they there if not to establish that there is something fishy with the clone army?
    Why have him say that if the film wanted to establish that it really was Sifo-Dyas that placed the order?

    There IS a disparity and Obi-wan says so. And neither Mace nor Yoda questions it or asks for more information. Clearly they accept it.

    No they can't look into the Kamino location from the archives because all info has been deleted.
    If they are told where Kamino is, they would have no reason to go to their archives to get a location they already know about.
    If the Kamino contact the senate, then a) I would think it likely that Jango would hear about it and he would then leave as he would rather not answer any questions about his involvement. And b) He has gotten his pay and his son, why would he stay?

    Sense one killer on a whole planet?
    The Jedi's ability to sense things are weakening, that is made clear and that it was this powerful is not something I have seen established in the films.

    Where in the films did the Jedi learn that Dooku was behind it?

    If it was a weapon then we would hear two blasts, one from the weapon and the other from the explosion.
    Also, if there was a shot, then the film should have shown that. Very sloppy film-making otherwise.
    So again, bomb is the most likely alternative given what the film shows.
    If it wanted to show a blast from some weapon, that would not be hard to do.

    It is a city that covers a whole planet, even if the body was dropped 50 miles from the Jedi temple, they would never hear of it.
    How many people get killed on Coruscant each day? I would think quite a few.
    So how would the Jedi ever connect some random dead body to the Padme thing?

    You still have not proven that Jango was given these orders on pain of death.
    And Jango is shown as smart enough to smell a rat so why pointlessly antagonize him for no reason?

    If Mace did not agree with Obi-wan, why didn't he ask more questions? Like "When exactly was this order placed?" Obi-Wan knows that date and it would take two seconds to ask. That Mace does not do this very simple thing implies he accepts what Obi-Wan says.

    Again, this convoluted plan is not only not necessary but using it only makes the sith look like they are trying to sabotage their own plans.
    Or they have a very misplaced sense of fair play. "Oh yes, we could win easily but we must give the Jedi a chance, not sporting otherwise."

    Bye for now.
    Old Stoneface
     
  6. LedReader

    LedReader Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 24, 2019
    To me, the Sifo-Dyas stuff is very straightforward in the film and I never knew it was viewed as some unexplained mystery by anyone until I started coming here. Dooku kills Sifo-Dyas and then places the order under his name. The evidence that exists points to Sifo-Dyas being murdered before the order was placed because he was. The evidence is not conclusive enough to declare for a fact that he didn't place the order because the Sith have covered their tracks to the best of their ability. The point of killing the real Sifo-Dyas is so that he's not leaving a separate trail of his own activities during that same time period that the Jedi can follow up on. No one can step forward and say "Hey I spent that whole day space-golfing with him and he definitely wasn't making any large, secretive business transactions at the time.", because what he was actually doing was lying in a ditch somewhere, so to speak. So when they found him on "Friday" they went "well we haven't heard from him since Monday, and he looks like he's been there several days, so he must've died on Monday." But the Kaminoans are now saying they talked to him on "Wednesday", which doesn't add up. So the options are 1) The Kaminoans are lying. But as Obi-Wan says that would only make sense if they benefitted in some way from saying such a thing, and as far as he can tell they don't. 2) Sifo-Dyas actually did order the army behind the Jedi's back. But that would be impossible if he truly died when the evidence at hand suggests he did. They can't both be true so there'd have to be something about the evidence they all overlooked before for this one to be it. Highly unlikely but not strictly impossible. 3) Someone other than Sifo-Dyas ordered the army under his name, and the Kaminoans simply don't know any better because they've never met the real Sifo-Dyas before. In order for that scheme to work, you'd have to be quite confident the real Sifo-Dyas was out of the picture. Say perhaps, if you knew he was lying in a ditch somewhere at the moment. Not too farfetched. The fact that the man hired to be the template has never even heard of Sifo-Dyas before is another strong indicator that Sifo-Dyas not the one who actually placed the order, so that makes option 2 even less likely, but again not impossible. In-universe wise that's all the Jedi have got to go on, and even though one of those options seems much more likely than the others, Yoda warns Obi-Wan against assuming anything. However Jango dies and the trail goes cold. But as the audience we get one last piece of information that essentially confirms that option 3 is the one that actually happened: Dooku wanted the clones to attack the whole time, that was part of their plan. And furthermore his other name is Tyrannus, meaning he is the one that personally hired Jango for the job, and indeed we already know that he also had the qualifications to erase Kamino from the Jedi archives. Basically everything points to the fact that Dooku did it after killing Sifo-Dyas.
     
  7. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2012
    Maybe he was involved (perhaps working with Sifo-Dyas before murdering him) - but both Newcanon and Legends were pretty consistent about Sifo-Dyas at least placing the initial order, having some contact with the Kaminoans, etc.
     
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2020
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  8. LedReader

    LedReader Jedi Master star 4

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    Oct 24, 2019
    Well if there's one thing we can count on, it the EUs always being 100% consistent with the original implications of the movies.:rolleyes:
    (The snark is not directed at you, but rather the fact the EU writers in general are fond of using loopholes and technicalities to spice up their stories as they write new ones. That includes Lucas himself and his infamous tinkering.)
     
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  9. QUIGONMIKE

    QUIGONMIKE Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 5, 2009
    Excellent - I agree here. Palpatine had been proving right along that hes the absolute best at triggering things that lead to him ultimately getting what he wants or at least most of the time. Guy is a genius. Palpy knew that mentioning Obi-Wan would probably(not gauranteed)lead to Anakin getting involved. It was a little bit of a dice roll on his part but it was calculated, nonetheless. He also knew that Padme would be perfectly fine with Obi-Wan and maybe even that she'd like to have Anakin involved too. Again, terrific manipulation tactics deployed here. :)
     
    Last edited: Aug 23, 2020
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  10. DartJackson

    DartJackson Jedi Knight star 1

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    Aug 26, 2020
    Such convoluted plans and conspiracy devices with an abundance of holes and diverging factors are commonplace in pulp novels and old space opera series.
     
  11. Kato Sai

    Kato Sai Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Apr 27, 2014
    Is there a relationahip between Obi-Wan and a woman that is canon now? In that case Kenobi may have felt like hypocrite to confront Anakin’s passion for Padme.
     
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  12. DARTHLINK

    DARTHLINK Force Ghost star 4

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    Feb 24, 2005
    Yeah. In the Clone Wars series, he develops a relationship with a Mandalorian woman (Sybil?)
     
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  13. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2012
    Satine.


    Not so much "he develops a relationship" though as "it's established that the two had a relationship in the past, and still have deep feelings for one another".
     
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  14. Kato Sai

    Kato Sai Chosen One star 8

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    Apr 27, 2014
    Kenobi has a thing for Mandos eh? He has good taste. In the words of Peppermint Pattie, “you sly dog.” :p
     
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  15. DARTHLINK

    DARTHLINK Force Ghost star 4

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    Feb 24, 2005
    Anakin would be all, “Oh, so you can have relationships with a woman but I can’t?” xD
     
  16. ConservativeJedi321

    ConservativeJedi321 Force Ghost star 6

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    Mar 19, 2016
    In season six of TCW Obi-Wan actually uses his previous feelings for Satine to empathize with Anakin and lend credence to his advice that Anakin should avoid getting too attached to Padme.
     
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  17. DARTHLINK

    DARTHLINK Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Feb 24, 2005
    Might be misremembering: didn’t he tell her that if he was able, he’d quit the Jedi Order to be with Satine? Or was that Anakin to Padmé?
     
  18. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

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    Sep 2, 2012
    As I recall, it was late in season 5, the final season with scenes with them both in.

    the " Satine's dying moments" scene, to be exact.
     
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  19. ConservativeJedi321

    ConservativeJedi321 Force Ghost star 6

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    Mar 19, 2016
    It was actually in her introduction arc in season two, the second episode of that arc
    When Tal Merrik kidnaps her, and threatens to blow up the ship she assumes she will never see Obi-Wan again and confesses her love, he then reluctantly admits that had she gave the word when they first met he would have left the order for her.
     
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  20. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

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    Sep 2, 2012
    Good point - memory failing me again. I knew it was somewhere in extremis, just not where.
     
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  21. FightoftheForgotten

    FightoftheForgotten Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    May 19, 2020
    We simply don't have enough information to go off of. One would assume that Palpatine had Dooku murder Sifo-Dyas and then order a clone army using Sifo-Dyas's name. Then palpatine would also have Dooku delete Kamino from the Jedi Temple's archives so that the Jedi don't haphazardly discover the clones before they're ready. However, per canon, Sifo-Dyas did actually order the Clone Army, but was killed soon after by Dooku. Dooku then took over liaison duties with the Kaminoans and provided Jango Fett as the template.

    Sifo-Dyas was originally just supposed to be Sidious in the early drafts; his name was Sido-Dyas, but GL made a typo (F is next to D) and thought it looked neat so he then invented an as yet unheard of Jedi to have been the one to have ordered the army.
     
    Last edited: Sep 2, 2020
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  22. Subtext Mining

    Subtext Mining Jedi Master star 4

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    Apr 27, 2016
    Let's look at what we know:
    -Palpatine wants Senator Amidala under the protection of Kenobi & Skywalker.
    -In the *Blu-Ray commentary, Lucas states Palpatine wants Kenobi to discover the Clone army.

    So, knowing point A and point B are indeed Palpatine's plan, let's ask how many of the events along that path were also part?

    We've got:
    -Padme using herself as bait.
    -Kenobi and Skywalker chasing and catching Zam. (Not in their mandate).
    -Jango shooting Zam with a Kamino saber dart, specifically.
    -Kenobi knowing someone who could identify the dart.
    -The Jedi figuring out that Kamino should still be there despite the records not showing it.

    The first two are out of Palpatine's control obviously. As well as the last two. Seems the only variable here is Jango leaving a clue. The thing is though, once Kenobi & Skywalker apprehend Zam, she starts spilling the beans. So whether by clue or confession, they still would've ended up at Kamino - the important thing to remember here is, Jango seemed surprised when Kenobi showed up, so it wasn't intentional on his part.

    If you were to ask me, I'd say while it can easily look like Palpatine/Dooku could've planned this series of events, they didn't need to.
    I'd say all of these were just the serendipitous events that led Kenobi from point A to point B. Palpatine didn't know how he'd end up at Kamino, but was sure one way or another, by virtue of his skills and good intentions, he would. Palpatine's brilliance isn't in how he orchestrated every little detail, it's in how he just needs to sit back and let everyone do their thing. And therein lies the tragicomedy of this whole chain of events.

    Which leads me to another important question: did Palpatine want Kenobi to discover the droid foundry and overhear the Separatist leaders on Geonosis?

    I would say yes.
    Backing up a second; why is it better for Kenobi to discover the Clones than to just have **Kamino contact the Jedi? It wouldn't really make any difference, but in chasing Padme's assassin, Kenobi will then follow him to Geonosis.
    The full extent of the combined intel Kenobi gained from his time on both Kamino and Geonosis created a greater push for the Senate to give Palpatine emergency powers and for the Jedi to accept the army than a ***Separatist attack on some planet would.
    Also sooner. Plus, this way the Jedi start the war along with the Separatists, by trying to end it before it starts (a justification on their part), rather than the Seps starting it with an outright attack and the Jedi merely defending.

    And again, this comes down to just letting Jango and Obi-Wan do their thing. It's almost sort of a Daoist approach on Palpatine's part.

    Palpatine's plan to become Chancellor in TPM started by manufacturing a crisis, and in turn his plan to gain executive powers in AotC began with manufacturing an assassination plot. And likewise in RotS, his plan to turn Anakin went into high gear by staging his own kidnapping.
    Just as his overall grand plan to create a Sith Empire began by staging a galactic civil war.


    *Towards the end of the elevator scene:
    Lucas: "The other part of this is that Palpatine is maneuvering things and getting Obi-Wan and Anakin to be with the Queen again. And part of it is to get Obi-Wan to find the Clones and find the Clone army, which is what part of this setup is for. Because they're being led along this path, the Jedi, toward accepting a Clone army and for Palpatine to get powers beyond the ones that are the constitutional powers for an elected official. He wants to have certain, more all-encompassing powers of which an emergency allows him to have."

    **Remember, Taun We said "We were beginning to think you weren't coming." Sounds like they must've been told not to contact the Jedi and to wait for a Jedi to arrive. When the time was right; for Palpatine.

    ***The Senate needed to know just how big the Separatist army was and how many powerful corporations were in league with a Dooku. The Republic didn't just need an army to stop one or a few battles, they needed a Grand Army to counter the enormity of the Separatiat threat. The extent of which is now known thanks to Kenobi's intel. Which also reported that the Kaminoans happened to have created such grand army for the Republic.



    Why didn't Obi-Wan mention Anakin's attachments to the council?
    In a deleted scene, Kenobi does express to Mace Windu his concern over Anakin's emotional connection with Senator Amidala and that he won't be able to protect her because he's confused and distracted by it. Mace does brush away these concerns by assuring Obi-Wan that Anakin is the one who will restore balance to the Force and that they must have faith he will choose the right path.

    Deleted scene or not, I do feel Obi-Wan failed in his responsibility to efficiently address Anakin's progress in regards to attachments. He's very by-the-book and perhaps was not willing or able to go deeper when Anakin expressed his troubling dreams about his mother and his intoxication with Padme. Im guessing he assumed Anakin would outgrow it or something and he could skate past it. In the scene that is in the movie, he does not express these particular concerns. Meaning he chose not to.

    Another possibility as to why he didn't share this with the Council could be what we learn in TCW; that he also had feelings for someone, Satine Kryze, whom he and his master Qui-Gon had protected when he was a Padawan. And to clear things up, they never had a relationship together, just strong feelings for each other.


    As two why the Anakin ended up with the assignment to be Amidala's bodyguard, remember Palpatine said he'd have a talk with her and that he knows she won't refuse an executive order. So yes, it was through Palpatine's suggestions and persuasions that Anakin was given the assignment.
     
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2020
  23. CampOfSorgan

    CampOfSorgan Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Apr 27, 2020
    A criticism I’ve seen before is the fact they use Kouhuns to attempt assassination, instead of a thermal detonator or having the droid just blast into the room. I think this is a legitimate criticism as you’d think Jango and Zam would realize Jedi could possibly be guarding Padme — and they’d sense any intrusive lifeform.

    On the other hand, you could argue it was logical to use Kouhuns as it is quieter and using a louder weapon to take out Padme would draw immediate attention of the authorities, and thus more likely Zam and Jango get caught.
     
    Last edited: Sep 15, 2020
  24. Samuel Vimes

    Samuel Vimes Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 4, 2012
    The most logical reason to use the worms, not that the film does this, is that Padme's room has sensors that detect weapons, explosives and poisons. So a bomb or gas would set off the sensors but a life form would not. These sensors could extend a bit outside the building so the droid would set off an alarm if it got close.

    Why would a loud weapon be an issue?
    The droid throws in a bomb, Padme is blown up and then droid self-destructs. No trace to follow.

    Why the droid did not self-destruct when it was spotted remains a question. It was apparently programmed to react if discovered but why return to Zam? That would be the worst thing it can do as then it can be followed. Either self-destruct or go in a different direction while sending a signal to Zam, "Discovered, mission aborted!" So Zam can hide herself.

    Bye for now.
    Old Stoneface
     
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  25. dagenspear

    dagenspear Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 9, 2015
    This all falls under the assumption that A) Palpatine actually wanted her dead or B) That a bomb or such wouldn't be sensed by the jedi or C) That Palpatine didn't want that droid to be traced back to the person who did it.

    We really don't have all the details in all of this to know these things. Which I think can be a fair criticism. But it's not necessarily one that I have, like this.

    There are jedi there, so I think there could be a trail.
     
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2020