main
side
curve
  1. Welcome to the new boards! Details here!

  2. The Boards Are Now Reopened For Business:

    READ THIS: your ability to post here depends upon it.. See the new rules thread here. Bans can and will be handed out to anyone who doesn't abide by the forum rules.

ST The relationship between Finn and Rey. SEE FIRST POST WARNING

Discussion in 'Sequel Trilogy' started by Devizz, Dec 16, 2015.

  1. AhsokaSolo

    AhsokaSolo Force Ghost star 7

    Registered:
    Dec 23, 2015
    Do you ship Mace Windu, Anakin, or Obi with Cad Bane? Do you think any of those three could have an epic romance with Cad Bane? If your answer is no, the comparison is irrelevant.

    As has been mentioned, rape is about power. Rey was strapped to a table against her will. Kylo invaded her personal space and she recoiled away from him crying. Then he forced his way into the intimate parts of her thoughts and feelings. He told her not to be afraid with a dismissive tone while he pushed against her tears and restraint to see into her lonely, sleepless nights, to mock her private feelings for Finn and Han. As she tried to fight him, he told her not to bother because he could take whatever he wanted. That was a calculated, manipulative way to scare the crap out of her and make her feel powerless and hopeless. He did this supposedly to find information on a map that would allow him to murder his uncle, a mythical figure that Rey looks up to, but he deviated off course to screw with her emotionally by going to anything intimate he could draw from. He did that while she cried and hated him. Thankfully, Rey overcame him and fought him off, despite being strapped to a table. The coward that thought he had power over her ran away with his tail between his legs.

    I struggle to see what else JJ could have possibly put into the scene to make the mind probe into more of a rape parallel without actually raping her. Regardless, JJ confirmed the obvious. We were meant to hate Kylo in that scene. If some people were turned on, cool, we all have our freaky crap that we're into, but there is no mistaking the actual intent of the scene.
     
  2. Forgotten Cade

    Forgotten Cade Jedi Padawan star 2

    Registered:
    Jan 3, 2016
    Why do I get the feeling that its some rich, old white guys born in the 40s and 50s running the show
     
    zero_point_zero likes this.
  3. Marshall132

    Marshall132 Jedi Padawan star 1

    Registered:
    Dec 26, 2015

    Yes if you want to go by that yes. But for the Jedi went right for one thing and only the information they needed. Kylo Ren played around in her head and taunted her with her thoughts and memories and feelings before even getting down to what he wanted near the end. He was enjoying putting himself close to her and making her cry, he liked the power of it and made it last longer than it needed just to savor it.

    That is the difference between the two scenes. The Jedi were direct and to the point and didn't dig for the deepest thoughts of his head, they wanted him to take them to a location.
    Kylo Ren played in her mind forcefully while taunting her and savoring the power he held over her in the situation and the pain it caused her.
     
  4. SandStorm06

    SandStorm06 Jedi Padawan star 1

    Registered:
    Jan 3, 2016
    What I feel is they probably bet a lot on Kylo Ren as evident in the merchandising scandal but people strongly related to Rey and Finn instead. I don't think they are planning to any major rewriting but will probably just add more focus on Finn, Rey and Poe. Tbh, I don't think Poe is going to be a main character even with the tweaks, he was always going to be a charming supporting character but that's okay really. A little more focus would be nice though. Kylo's back story is halfway told, his deal with Snoke and confrontation with Leia is left while Rey and Finn's entire backstory is left. They were probably afraid that people won't be able to relate as strongly to them as they had. The new generation of fans don't really care about family legacy. The next movie is going to be Rey and Finn's movie from all the evidence.
     
  5. Forgotten Cade

    Forgotten Cade Jedi Padawan star 2

    Registered:
    Jan 3, 2016
    Kylo is my 2nd favorite character in the new Tri, but even I can say he came off as kinda soft as a villain. And dont get me started about Phasma lol I knew in the beginning that them forcing Gwendoline to say she the new fett was going to fail
     
  6. AhsokaSolo

    AhsokaSolo Force Ghost star 7

    Registered:
    Dec 23, 2015
    Kylo Ren merchandising really got on my bad side when I was trying to Christmas shop for my daughter. I couldn't find a Rey action figure (or Ahsoka, but that's less surprising) anywhere, but holy crap I was swimming in Kylo Ren every where I went. They must have mass produced 20 different versions of the guy in all shapes and purposes. No, I didn't want a three foot tall Kylo, plus a Barbie sized Kylo, plus four different action figure Kylo's, plus a Kylo mask, plus a Kylo bobble head, plus a Kylo plush toy, plus a package of SW villains including Kylo... And seriously, I could keep going. All I wanted was one Rey action figure, and the best I could do was get Rey's speeder with an action figure who's desert mask doesn't even come off.
     
    Forgotten Cade likes this.
  7. Purple Ren

    Purple Ren Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Dec 18, 2015
    The ships have nothing to do with this.

    So getting into someone's mind and forcing them to do something isn't power? Really? That's more about power than digging around for information. Again, actions vs words.
    Forcing someone to do something is exerting more power over them than forcing information from them.


    The difference is that the Jedi were forcing someone to do something against their will. Yes, they were more direct, but their action was also more severe.

    All I'm saying is that if this is somehow supposed to taint Kylo Ren, then it taints Anakin, Obi-Wan, and Mace Windu. Because they're all guilty of doing similar things: forcing their way into someone's mind in a very unpleasant manner.
     
  8. Forgotten Cade

    Forgotten Cade Jedi Padawan star 2

    Registered:
    Jan 3, 2016
    Quick question, is they Rey toy an Action figure or Doll?
     
  9. Nanosoft

    Nanosoft Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Dec 15, 2015
    Here's what I said a few days ago about the mind-rape/interrogation scene :

    I'll just add, and this is mostly directed at you citronaughty ; You can't always draw some 1 to 1 correlation between characters actions in a movie, let alone, try and draw some parallel between a movie made by one group of people (JJ, etc), to a EU cartoon created by a completely different group of peope (Animators, etc).

    It doesn't work like that.

    Film is an audio/visual/storytelling medium. It's about tone, imagery, emotional cues, cinematic cues, etc. Maybe you can argue that, if this were *real life*, that the Jedi interrogating someone is just as unlawful as Kylo interrogating someone, and maybe in real life, they would both have to answer to the law, and people would write opinion pieces on morality and ethics, etc etc etch. But this was a MOVIE, and the scene plays out in a very specific manner : It shows a clear, and I mean CLEAR, figurative sexual assault. Figurative, but clear nonetheless.

    He kidnaps her, ties her to a chair, and tries to probe her. He blatantly says "I can take what I want". He then talks about her being "so lonely at night". You don't have to be Einstein to determine what JJ was trying to do. Him confirming it is just icing on the cake. He didn't have to say anything, because he filmed the scene in a way that *should have* left no doubt. But at this point, you're arguing not just against us, but the director of the film himself.

    Edit : FWIW, the Jedi did try to avoid using the mindtrick so much, at least they did in the old EU. They did in fact, recognize, in universe, that it's an intrusive method that should be avoided when they can. I'm not sure if there's any information in the new canon on this.
     
  10. SandStorm06

    SandStorm06 Jedi Padawan star 1

    Registered:
    Jan 3, 2016
    AhsokaSolo, Yes, there has been a controversy about toy-makers banking on Kylo over Rey and how the supply overwhelmed the demand. Rey action figures were actually nowhere to be found and are sold within minutes due to her popularity. They are so out of touch. They indeed felt people will relate more to the kinslayer in this movie over Rey. Anyway, the good thing is the next movies will focus more on Finn and Rey if all the rumours are anything to go by. Plus, Disney seems intent on toning down darkness, so that's interesting I guess.
    Oh and I agree with you completely. The problem is not "violent mind rape" as JJ said, the problem is are we picturing a grand romance with the same people who have been in the situation before? If not, then it's obvious why "Mind rape" is not an acceptable scenario in the case of Kylo and Rey. It's because people are imagining some Twilight in Space between the two people involved in such a violently abusive scenario. Again, JJ's words.
     
    Forgotten Cade and AhsokaSolo like this.
  11. AhsokaSolo

    AhsokaSolo Force Ghost star 7

    Registered:
    Dec 23, 2015
    I'm not distinguishing or defending that TCW scene. The purpose of that scene was to inject grey into the concept of the Jedi. You were supposed to be disturbed by what they did to Cad Bane, just as you're supposed to be disturbed by Kylo.

    And yet, those three didn't do it for kicks. They did it for the mission. Kylo mentally screwed with Rey. He didn't need to for his purpose, and he seemed (to me) to enjoy it. He wasn't ashamed that he was stealing her intimate, private moments and using them to mess with her head. He was cold and calculated. Fascinated. Entitled.
     
    zero_point_zero likes this.
  12. AhsokaSolo

    AhsokaSolo Force Ghost star 7

    Registered:
    Dec 23, 2015
    Lol action figure... But in my house, doll :p
     
  13. zero_point_zero

    zero_point_zero Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 5, 2016
    Why would JJ lie to a dying kid? And if he was going to lie, wouldn't he downplay something like that to soften the impact? Nah, if JJ said it was mind rape then that's the intent of that scene. So ultimately you have to question yourself on whether mind rape is as inexcusable as physical rape to you or if it's a comparable concept. BUT, regardless of the label you use for what's depicted, JJ unequivocally intended that scene to be creepy, invasive and sadistic. And many audiences interpreted it exactly in that way. Which is another big strike against any intended romantic arc for Kylo. If Rey was to fall in love with a guy that the director HIMSELF said assaulted her in uncomfortable and invasive fashion, then what would that reflect on Rey as a character? Incidentally, the most popular character created since the big 3 of the OT?

    And yeah you can say that 'Clone Wars' scene had the same connotations, but no one's expecting any 3 of those characters to have a romance with the main protagonist of the most successful movie in SW history. I just think you have to admit that audience perception of Kylo as a redeemable character is at a pretty low tide right now, and even worse as a romantic interest, and he could even become more of a lost cause now that Snoke is training him personally.

    Actually AhsokaSolo made me remember that line about him sensing her loneliness. That really hits home now that I think on it. This guy sees attachments and a need for love and companionship as a weakness, he mocks it, he thinks it's a pathetic concept. And people think he wants affection from anyone? NOPE.
     
    frail47 and AhsokaSolo like this.
  14. Forgotten Cade

    Forgotten Cade Jedi Padawan star 2

    Registered:
    Jan 3, 2016
  15. Tharionn

    Tharionn Jedi Knight star 2

    Registered:
    Dec 24, 2015
    Just finished catching up and wow is that dude a troll. Just caught up on the last 10 pages.

    Sent from my BLU LIFE ONE X using Tapatalk
     
    Forgotten Cade likes this.
  16. MilesEdgeworth

    MilesEdgeworth Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Dec 22, 2015
    Ok, this is the best censoring eva. If I didn't read the statement pre-censor I would've been :eek:



    While both situations are undoubtedly wrong, one is mind rape and one is mind torture. So yes respected jedi masters are guilty of torture, I'll conced that. But on the plus side, at least you can argue that Ren is an equal opportunity offender since he did the same to Poe. Anybody want to ship Poe/Ren due to the sexual undertones of their scene together?
     
  17. zero_point_zero

    zero_point_zero Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 5, 2016
    Idk, I'm gonna have to watch TFA again to be sure lol.

    I was not COMPLETELY opposed to the idea of Kylo being redeemed, but now that JJ spelled out exactly what the scene was.. idk, I'm not sure how anyone can see Reylo happening. It would literally destroy Rey's perception as a heroic character. And yeah Rey fought back but she was forced to. She didn't have her hands free, her mind was her only weapon, she had to push him out of her head, and then in the process saw inside his.
     
  18. pupuce

    pupuce Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Jan 10, 2016
    Kylo ren is worse than anakin. At least anakin he wanted to protect his wife. He had goods intentions at the start. Kylo Ren, just want to be bad, he choose the dark side, reject on purpuse the light inside him. There is nothing to redeem unless he is under brainwashed from snoke (Ala Stormtrooper's way ). There is nothing to save for now and I wanted to become a big villains, i want him to have an agenda, and the next in his plan to kill , his snoke himself to take the place.

    Even without a rape innuedo , reylo is the worst. probably incest and without incest, come on. Give more credit to Rey to not fall for Ren. She doesn't sound like girl not smart enough to fall for the bad boy. it makes be a fantasy for a lot of girl, but the reality to date a bad boy ( and here, kylo ren, is not even a bad boy, but an evil guy) is not great.
     
  19. Purple Ren

    Purple Ren Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Dec 18, 2015
    Yes, but the enjoyment or lack thereof comes down to differences between light side and dark side users. What they were doing was a dark thing. It makes sense that Jedi would not embrace it, while a dark sider (won't use the term Sith) would. But regardless of whether the perpetrator enjoys it or not, the victim still experiences the same thing. And in both cases, the victim has a very unpleasant experience. Do they really care whether or not the perpetrator(s) enjoy it? Why would they? They'd only be concerned with their own agony in the moment.



    Which is which? If rape is about control, then what the Jedi did would be more in line with mind rape, since they went into Cad Bane's mind to gain control over it. Kylo was just toying around inside Rey's mind. And this is why I say that what the Jedi did was much worse. Now, what Kylo did to Poe was much more in line with what the Jedi did to Bane. And that's a key point to note. Kylo intentionally was softer with Rey than he was with Poe.


    I'm trying to give more credit to Rey by saying she's better than an ex-Storm Trooper/janitor/comedy sidekick.


    If two of the most respected Jedi Masters in the Saga can do something worse than what Kylo did and remain Jedi and on the light side, then Kylo can certainly be redeemed and come back to the light side.


    I'm not arguing against the director. I'm arguing that what he said, in the context in which he said it, is hardly confirmation. If you can't see why, given the context of an early screening to a fan whose life is hanging by a thread, JJ wouldn't see reason to start a debate with the man, I really don't see a point in debating this anymore. It would be like a child dying of cancer and in their last days saying "Oh, by the way, there's no Santa Claus." Why mess with someone's vision? That's what that particular guy saw. JJ was being nice by letting the dude have his vision of that scene. Granted, maybe JJ actually does agree with the dude, but he doesn't necessarily. That's why I don't believe it is a confirmation.
     
  20. Beardwalker

    Beardwalker Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 5, 2016
    He tell's you to give Rey more credit than to fall for the guy who tortures her, I don't care how gently you think he tortured her. The dude is messed up in the head. But you turn it around and take a jab at Finn. This is why I take everything you say with a grain of salt.

    And back to the parallels, you keep comparing the two scenes in terms of "unpleasantness". That is not an indicator of a rape parallel. A lot of situation can be unpleasant or painful. Which brings me back to my previous argument. CONTEXT!!!!

    In TCW, they interrogate him like a POW. Cause him pain until he breaks and gives them the information they need.

    In TFA, Kylo takes it to a whole other level. He says he can take whatever he wants, and then shows that he can. Here we have someone strapped to a chair and their captor whispering in their ear there most personal thoughts when all he has to do is get information on the map and he is done. I don't care how gentle you think he is being, the gentleness and whispering makes it even creepier. If he just went into her head, got the information he needed and moved on, I would not call it a rape parallel.

    And as for the enjoyment factor of the captor, when is the last time you heard a story about an assault or rape or anything of that sort where they did it because they have to and not because they wanted to.
     
    AhsokaSolo likes this.
  21. pupuce

    pupuce Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Jan 10, 2016
     
  22. Ryanpaulstewart

    Ryanpaulstewart Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 13, 2016
    This is where shipping loses me. There's an exhaustive amount of intellectual calisthenics that must be done simply to get to a place where the "shipping' discussion of Rey and Kylo can begin to take form. If that much work must be done then I'm pretty sure it is not the intention of the people writing TFA - in this case, JJ, whom was quoted confirming everyone on this thread's suspicion that the interrogation scene was intended to be an artistic surrogate of a rape/attempted rape scene. Instead of packing up their camp and going home, they double down on their belief by invalidating the writer, executive producer, and director of the film.

    If this is your weird fantasy then have at it (live in your dark fantasy world), but I have no interest in engaging in it with you.

    Then, amazingly enough, the same person able to "see" the deeper context of the interrogation scene--deeper than JJ and everyone on this thread; ironically, "doesn't see" any of the romantic foreshadowing in scenes between Rey and Finn in TFA.

    Hmmmmm?

    The ability to "see" and "not see" is powerful with this one.
     
    Nanosoft, Carl Rahl, frail47 and 2 others like this.
  23. Blastaar

    Blastaar Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 25, 2015
    Curious......I don't see the mods showing up and shutting down the off topic rape debate.........
     
    Obiwan10 likes this.
  24. A Chorus of Disapproval

    A Chorus of Disapproval TV Screaming Service / FFS! star 9 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Aug 19, 2003
    Here I come to save the day!

    citronaughty - You have made your point. Excessively. Whether your point was to troll the hell out of this thread or to express your point of view... point(s) made. Stop derailing threads with incendiary offtopic diatribes.
     
  25. zero_point_zero

    zero_point_zero Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 5, 2016
    Idk that I'm even going to bother debating with the Reylo people about it because they already have their own interpretation of it that they're sticking to. I DO think that calling the 'mind rape' mutual between Kylo and Rey is ridiculous, he instigated it and there was no evidence he was going to stop until Rey fought back thru the only means available to her. That's like trying to justify an assault as mutual by saying the victim was able to fend the attacker off. She wanted him to stop, and in the process of defending herself she was able to see a weakness in Kylo. So the reading of his mind was an incidental but successful deterrent .

    I think most people in that camp have commited fully to the idea that Kylo is the eventual hero and savior of this story and any horrible deeds he commits will be washed away somehow by events in the upcoming movies. I'm just struggling, like really struggling to figure out the path of that redemption. As of now he got humiliated by Rey, is going to be under close supervision with Snoke training him, so more than likely his descent will continue. Just speaking on the business side of things, all three of TFAs heroic characters have been amazingly successful, so adding Kylo as a protagonist at some point makes little narrative sense and is completely unneeded. And pairing him with Rey makes absolutely no sense, the leaps in logic needed for Rey to even like Kylo let alone fall in love with him, after he essentially assaulted her in every way possible, physically and mentally, I mean, it would diminish her to such a degree that I wouldn't be able to take her seriously onscreen. Why would you want to risk turning the most successful and positive female character in recent memory into a joke?