ST The Rise of Skywalker and the Future of the Sequel Trilogy

Thats because at the time the PT wasn't getting the same love it is today. So they were protecting their investment to only remind people of what they love.

I mean even that last trailer with dark Rey had more OT clips in it then PT clips, and slightly more then the ST even.

 

OT, but the problem to me is literally rewatchability. I watch ST all the time. I have rewatched TNG, DS9 and the OS, and VOY and ENT are both partially rewatched. With classic Trek, you can pick any random episode and watch it. With Discovery, like all modern shows, each season is a strangely written 12 hour-ish movie. There is almost no rewatch appeal to me in that. It doesn’t have the same one-episode sci-fi arcs that really get you thinking. I just think for me at least, modern Trek will fade from memory a year after it ends, and I’ll still be paying for Netflix so I can pull up random TNG episodes.

 

I believe this totally.....it also basically killed the chances for further writers/directors of the ST to use any kind of POLITICS.....

(waves hand dismissively)..You don't wanna go there....

"This will begin to make things right"

 

It was completed way ahead of time, as I recall. Which may be a pity. All discussions of TLJ's quality are completely YMMV, but some repeat viewings on Netflix convince me its primary issue is it needed more heavy-handed editing. For the most part, the general direction it takes is either sound or necessitated by what preceded it in TFA. To me, TLJ holds up pretty well. But where the movie chafes is when Johnson tries to be too cute by half, an all-too-frequent occurrence.

 

yup....i understand from a bean counters point, why it was done.

But i never agreed with that approach and was extremely turned off by JJ and his hangers on (Pegg et.al) arrogance and subtle disrespect of Lucas.

And that shortsighted approach has, in my opinion, made this ST story awful from the start, in the middle and not sounding any better for it's conclusion (if recent rumors are accurate)

 

I feel like they tried to appeal to the Twilight crowd, seemingly without realizing that the Twilight craze died down years ago.

 

It's played out as you would expect short term thinking to play out.

 

I think they weren’t exclusively going for Twilight. I think it was a YA effort generally with heavy emphasis on both Twilight and Hunger Games. Hunger Games just showed up more in TFA, and Twilight more in TLJ.

I’ve given it some thought and I suspect that part of the problem is both Twilight and Hunger Games’ source material is written by women, and then in LF they were interpreted mainly by men. I have long had the impression that LF doesn’t get how to treat/write female characters (like I think they’re behind mainstream Hollywood, which is pretty bad), so they relied on where female leads have been most successful for guidance, ie YA. The problem is RJ and JJ clearly aren’t fans of YA and don’t really get it. At no point in Rey’s trilogy has a female writer played a role in crafting her story. KK doesn’t care because she just wants box office hits. The outcome was imo a terribly realized shell of a protagonist, and too bad the protagonist is the most important part of the story.

 

Kylo as portrayed thus far is a bit of a blank slate emotionally, with people filling in the gaps both good and bad in their heads. Based just on what he does he's evil. He says he's not, or is conflicted, but his actions say otherwise. As my mom said "don't tell me you're sorry, show me you're sorry."

 

The Prequel Trilogy was also marketed almost exclusively with Original Trilogy music. It's some of the most recognizable and memorable music composed in the 20th century. The trailer for Episode III also started with OT footage before transitioning to new material.

This isn't really some weird manipulative conspiracy to downplay or demean past movies at the expense of new ones or anything like that. It's just what you do when you're trying to grab attention during your commercial.

 

eh Driver's a good actor but I don't get all the praise he's gotten as Kylo either.

 

I just wanna make sure I'm understanding this morning's line of discussion: Is the "fawning over Kylo" being directed at various factions of the fandom, or are people honestly believing the creatives behind the scenes are "fawning" over him?

If it's the former, then we're less discussing the content of the films and more discussing our dislike or misunderstanding of other people's reactions to the film's content, and effectively reviewing the audience, not the movie. Which is fine, that can lead to pretty interesting conversation as well. But if it's the latter, that's a very odd way to describe people like J.J. Abrams, Rian Johnson, Kathleen Kennedy, Larry Kasdan, etc. "Fawning" suggests they're romantically attached to him and doing favors for the character in hopes of some reciprocation of attention? Which is obviously not how any of that works.

It really does presuppose a creative atmosphere where the people who write these stories and imbue these characters with the ideas and themes they need to represent for the story's overall purpose to be fulfilled consider the characters to be people they perform favors for, play favorites with, and otherwise treat as if they're sentient beings who can autonomously reward them for their loyalty or something. And I don't think conflating audiences cheering and/or rooting for characters as if they're sports teams or pro wrestlers or romantic possibilities with how the creatives execute their ideas is a good idea.

Characters in movies aren't people who exist to rack up W's and L's and their record at the end of the movie dictates where they stand on the characterization leaderboard. They're ideas given voice and movement as a means to express larger themes and lessons to the audience.

 

They absolutely tried to make it clear they were distancing themselves from the PT during the marketing of TFA.

 

I remember people latching onto Hamill saying "Practical Effects" in the sizzle reel as proof there was an anti-prequel bias at Lucasfilm and in The Force Awakens, but that's pretty flimsy, especially considering the number of prequel era references in the movie proper, as well as the constant prequel acknowledgement and build-up by Lucasfilm through their TV shows and novels and comics at the time as well. The charge that TFA existed to shame the prequels was never super-solid, to me.

But that all aside, the idea that using OT footage and music in the marketing for TFA was a swipe at the prequels doesn't make sense considering the prequels themselves used OT footage and music in their own marketing. Were the prequels swiping at themselves?

When you sell Star Wars to people, you sell the big moments and the recognizable stuff. Lightsabers, spaceships, and John Williams' music. It's appropriate and just smart. Besides that, it's the first direct sequel to the original trilogy since the Ewok Adventures, LOL. There's obviously going to be a lot of OT nostalgia being called upon, because the story dictates you HAVE to call back to it.

 

@Broom Kid I don't think it's really debatable whether or not Lucasfilm, Bad Robot or Disney used anti-PT angst as fuel for the marketing of TFA.

 

But it doesn't matter how good an actor is, if the material he is given is subpar. An even better example is Mark Hamill. There is absolutely nothing wrong with his acting in TLJ, but the material he had to work with... needs no comment.

 

Name more than 3

I do agree with you here, talking specifically about using music. You were right to call me out on that in my original post.

 

It's pretty obviously debatable. I don't think they really did that. I think sensitive prequel fans who were jumpy after having a couple decades of crap flung in their direction started reacting poorly to any suggestion their fandom for those films was worthy of contempt, and essentially took to heart things that weren't really criticisms, much less part of some organized campaign to boost The Force Awakens at the expense of the prequels.

And again, it doesn't really matter anyway, because fandom (and its resultant infighting) wasn't much of a focus at all in the marketing for The Force Awakens, and the marketing campaign for that movie ended up being responsible for (at the time) the biggest opening weekend ever and also the biggest domestic take of all time - and under that particular spotlight of unprecedented success, Lucasfilm never once shied away from placing Prequel-era content (and celebrations of that era) directly in that spotlight.

 

I think they did shy away abit during TFA. while there were a couple of references thrown in here and there, i do kinda get the impression someone onboard did tell them to stick closer to the OT while really carefully acknowledging the PT.

Even the first battlefront game in 2016 had no PT content in it. the closest was getting temuera morrison to voice bob fett for that game.

I think over time the PT fans have made their voices heard and the doors have opened abit more for PT content.

Although saying that, lets be fair with TFA. JJ did get Ewan McGregor to do a line for the film. its not one you would know if someone didn't mention it, but its still there. and its possible they may have thought about including Hayden too if you go by concept art, but its hard to say.

 

I mean from a cynical marketing standpoint the OT is the thing that the Star Wars fans really has no controversy surrounding it.

Yes PT fans are older now and there purchasing power has grown, but the PT still has it's controversies (Some more legit than others) and like the ST the unity isn't there.

Now obviously the ST is still in production so in ten years or so will see how many ST fans grow up and if they outnumber OT and PT fans one day IDK?

But in terms of marketing it's easier to market the OT since it's the least controversial of the trilogies.

 

It's not even remotely debatable.

You didn't respond to what I said. Which is that they used anti-PT angst as fuel for the marketing of TFA.

I did not say they were actively bashing the PT in the TFA marketing. But it is transparently obvious - from the world-building, to the costume design, to the character arch-types selected, to the statements about practical effects, lack of CGI, even to shooting on film - that they used this angst to create the impression in their target audiences that "these are not the prequels!"

But don't take my word for it:

https://www.indiewire.com/2015/12/w...t-star-wars-the-force-awakens-and-more-95863/

Kasdan quote: "Kasdan quietly points toward the prequels as an example of what happens when there’s not so much care in revisiting “Star Wars” galaxy. “Some things had been given away without enough value during the period when I was away from the saga. You’d just see too much, you’d see it too fast, there was no specialness to the presentation of something which is iconic,” he said."

https://dorksideoftheforce.com/2015/08/19/disneys-solution-to-the-problem-of-the-star-wars-prequels/

Quote: "The Mouse’s strategy for selling fans on the sequel trilogy is as much about distancing itself from the prequels as it is about reinforcing its ties to the original trilogy. Everyone involved in the new Star Wars projects, from J.J. Abrams to Lucasfilm President Kathleen Kennedy and numerous other cast and crew members, have talked our ear off about the emphasis on practical effects, minimal CGI, authentic props and costumes. It’s not enough that the original three leads are returning. Disney wants to assure us that its blue milk came from the same cows as the original trilogy."

 

Always thought Kasdan was an arrogant man. Never saw this quote before, but it reinforces it tenfold.

What a dumb way of looking at GL's work on the PT.

 

This is definitely a problem for how this character will be seen, and I agree that having a female writer would've helped round out her character much better. They play it too safe with her at moments when she really should be brought to her knees (as a "male protagonist" would, normally) and the hardest moments for her character emotionally don't really pack that much punch, which removes audience investment.

Despite being a less charismatic charatcter, Jyn Erso actually had some challenges and difficulties, so it's not like we haven't seen this from Disney's Star Wars.

That is one of the encouraging things about the Palpatine reveal, even if I don't totally buy it. If JJ and Daisy can actually sell us on her finding out the worst parts of her nature and get us to buy into her actually potentially going dark, this could save her overall arc. She's been too perfect up to this point, and adding a significant flaw or imperfection could go a long way.

Still, spoilers seem to indicate that she remains heroic throughout. It would be really cool if they did something where Kylo starts to see the light while Rey gets pulled to the darkness and they tease a switcheroo in the final act. I don't think that's what'll actually happen, though.