Amph Gonna Fly Now: Rocky / Creed / Drago

So, @Souderwan incredibly graciously hosted me at his home during the month of May and I had little else to do all day besides feast myself on his treasure trove of DVDs. Despite being both a big sports fan and a big movie fan, I had never seen any of the Rocky movies, and I fell in love with them Since there's no dedicated Rocky thread I thought it would be a good idea to make one, especially since we're coming into the home stretch of the lead-up to Creed II.

Yeah, this is sort of a "welcome to thirty years ago" thread, but I was born in 1987, so by the time I was a young adult the movies' heyday as a pop-culture phenomenon were over. I only had a sort of general awareness of Rocky as a fictional folk hero, but I didn't think the films were actually worth going back and watching. In fact, my understanding of Sylvester Stallone as an actor in general was that he was a sort of poor man's Arnold Schwarzeneggar -- the sort of stereotypical big brute/martial artist/horrendous "actor" stereotype deliberately played up in The Expendables series (a misconception no doubt held in part because of my main exposure to Stallone previously having been his horrendous film Driven, which I suppose was his attempt at "Rocky as a washed-up Formula 1 great" gone horribly wrong). I actually thought that the Rocky films were more or less a series of trite "opponent of the year" stories (every movie being a different version of Rocky IV, basically) so I was very pleased to find that the movies are actually a rich saga not just about a boxing career but a life, as well.

So I guess a cheap way to kick off the thread is to rank the movies. My ranking is:
1. Rocky
2. Creed
3. Rocky III
4. Rocky Balboa
5. Rocky IV
6. Rocky II
7. Rocky V

I was somewhat surprised after watching the movies to discover that many people consider Rocky IV to be their favorite. The first time I watched it, I thought it was the most transparent piece of Hollywood quasi-propaganda I had ever seen, but I guess for some people especially in a certain age demographic the visceral thrill of watching Rocky kick some Communist ass was a Very Big Deal. I guess if you turn your brain off it can be a fun "'Merica!" guilty-pleasure but compared especially to the richness of the previous installment it rings pretty hollow to me. One problem I have with the series in general is that Talia Shire's acting is pretty horrendous so some of Adrian's big character moments--like the scene on the beach in Rocky III--don't really work for me.

Anyway, so this thread isn't just a retrospective of a decades-old series, here's the trailer for Creed II.



What do you guys put the chances of Rocky dying in this installment at? @Souderwan and I have decided 40%.

 

I like the fist one , it has a genuine working class feel to it , after that the films seem to leave Rocky behind and are replaced with Stallone and his Hollywood ego .

 

My ranking.
1. boxing
2. is
3. a
4. monumentally
5. stupid
6. sport
7. and ranking movies is boring

 

Yah I think it's a wee bit jarring that Creed is a return to the realism roots of the series (that were happily rediscovered with Rocky Balboa) and the fact that Apollo Creed is dead is in one of the (awesomely) cartoonier outlandish entires, Rocky IV. So Creed being a direct Rocky IV payoff is something you WANT To see, even if Adonis isn't wailing on the proper Drago, it's still A Drago.

One odd thing I notice is in Rocky III and IV (I haven't seen V in decades and don't want to) izzat Rocky himself becomes a lot less funnier. He's chatty and funny in the first movie and Balboba / Creed it's a little odd that he just drops it. But I'd say Rocky, Rocky Balboa and Creed are of the more realistic, natural boxing movies and then you have Rocky III and Rocky IV which are really large, kinda dopey and cheesy films but very entertaining bombastic films.

 

I apologize in advance for this being a tad (okay, more than a tad) longwinded. Having read everyone else's posts, I believe at least it's not (too) redundant.

In many cases the Rocky films were a reflection of Stallone's own personal journey and the character was really his avatar. W/the original Rocky it's obvious, w/the struggling, hardscrabble hero getting his shot. In Rocky II we see the title character struggle w/life after a taste of fame, which surely mirrors Stallone's own attempt to deal w/the aftermath of Rocky. In III, Rocky has achieved a sustained success and now struggles w/keeping his edge in its wake. In all three of those instances they perfectly mirror Stallone's own journey from nobody to star.

Now w/Rocky IV you have a film that, like Stallone's other film released in 1985, Rambo II, is less a reflection of where Stallone was in relation to his career and more a look at what was on his mind at the moment. They became vessels for what he was feeling about the world at large. I re-watched Rambo II a couple of months back (my "review" is buried in the movie/watched thread somewhere) and I noted that while it has a "Rah! Rah!" reputation, it's not the flag-waving "jingoistic" film its critics claim IMO. Rambo is betrayed by people in his own government and Rambo's message at the end of the film is that he only wishes for his country to love him as much as he loves it. A commentary on how many Vietnam vets felt in the years after they came home w/no tickertape parade to greet them. Similarly Rocky IV has that "flag waving" reputation, and while it's a bit more deserved here despite the film's "Can't we all just get along?" ending, I think Rocky IV is a bit more clever as an allegory--highlighting the differences between the self made individual vs. the state made machine, w/Rocky and Drago epitomizing the two different philosophies of their respective countries--than its critics give it credit for.

Rocky V... is a mess. It was an attempt to get Rocky back to his roots, but it was married w/a (then) contemporary pop culture sensibility and is ultimately undermined by poor execution. Rocky Balboa is a do over, a "My bad" makeup for V and does right what the latter did so wrong. At the time Stallone had been excommunicated from the A-list and was relegated to the world of straight-to-video films. Balboa was not only a passion project for him, a way to send his signature character out on high note, but there are aspects of the man in the character he plays, bringing that full circle for both of them.

I thought that was it. Thought it should be it. Creed? Oh come on, really? Let it die, Sly. But I was wrong. Creed is almost a beat for beat remake of Rocky, but the men are so different that it feels fresh seeing this journey through the eyes of someone new. Jordan is great as the title character and his relationship w/Rocky (where Stallone has never been better) is the glue that holds it all together.

My rankings:

Rocky
Rocky IV
Creed
Rocky Balboa
Rocky II
Rocky III
Rocky V

 

I enjoyed Creed for the most part, but I don't remember it he wins or loses. I do recall good acting all around. I'll probably see Creed II eventually.

I loved Rocky IV and remember disliking Rocky V's street brawl and the whining of his son. I still have never seen Rocky Balboa.
As for the first Rocky, it's great, but I remember it being kind of slow. I really don't have any memory of II and the only memory of III is it's the one where Mickey dies and Mr. T is in it. I do remember "Happy Birthday Polly" robot but probably less because of the more and more because Family Guy made fun a reference to it.

I'd probably agree with @Juke Skywalker ranking even though I haven't seen Rocky Balboa, but I heard good things.

 

RIP Butkus

 

Watching the trailer for Creed2, I'm kind of rooting for Vitkor at the moment because he looks like such an awesome monster.

 

The first Rocky flick that I saw was Rocky II and I was an instant fan, as it was both a rags to riches and a hero's journey tale, complete with an old sage to guide the way and a hero's theme song. And of course the proverbial dragon that need to be slayed. And being Rocky II was my introduction into the Rocky franchise, I found the original to be quite boring as a kid, and even now to be honest. Rocky II had all the classic and iconic elements of Rocky running up the stairs at the Philly Art museum. That scene is so iconic that much like grabbing a flashlight and pretending it's a lightsaber, running up a flight of stairs causes a person to celebrate like Rocky and lift their hands in the air and dance around a bit. Also, because of Rocky II, I tried to run around and catch my neighbor's chicken. True story. Rocky II, has the most iconic lines too:

Mickey: You're gonna eat lightnin'; you're gonna crap thunder.​

and Rocky at the end of the film: YO, ADRIAN! I DID IT!

Mickey was such a great character. Nobody or character could ever fill his void.

Rocky II was constantly replayed on my local cable provider, and I pretty much watch it every time it came on.

All that being said, Rocky IV is definitely my favorite in the franchise because is was just a spectacle and a perfect example of an 80's film, with alot flair and the underlying theme of the U.S. is better than the U.S.S.R. Additionally, the pace of the film moves along quite well and there's a fun factor to it. And of course the training montage is probably the best of the franchise, as noted above, it has that element of natural/basic training versus the scientific advancement in sports medicine and tech training. I mean, when Rocky is running up the mountain juxtaposed to Drago getting roided up and seeing his punching power go off the charts was riveting. Moreover, Rocky IV has the best sound track in the franchise. I ended up buying the album.

Creed was a great rebirth of the franchise, as it didn't feel like a cash grab or made just to make Rocky relevant again. Adonis was given the same character development and treatment as the original film, and it's where the director Ryan Coogler was really able to showcase his talents and get notoriety. I was worried the film wasn't going to play the classic Rocky theme song, but they held it off until the right moment in the film and like most of the previous films, got me pumped up for the climatic battle. Additionally, Rocky does a nice job in filling the "Mickey" role.

I'm looking forward to Creed II, but I wish it was being directed by Ryan Coogler.

 

Yah the "Hearts on Fire" montage only suffers in that it's following the straight up iconic "Eye of the Tiger" BUT the contrast between Rocky's training and Drago's robo-enabled steroid state sanctioned juicing is pretty great. And the veil has been lifted on state sponsored blood doping for Russian athletes, and since Drago Sr. was doing it, so it's probably REALLY likely we'll see some of that in this one.

In my head, if Creed = Rocky then I'm just expecting Creed II = Rocky IV.

 

I gotta admit, after watching Florian train and reading more about him, I'm kind of rooting for Viktor at this point. I mean, he didn't kill Apollo; he's just an athlete.

 

I would have liked to seen a solo film of Drago first before having a fight with Creed in Creed II. I imagine that Drago was a disgrace after his fight with Rocky was stripped of privilege and opportunity, and thus spiraled downward. As a result, baby Drago grew up in harsh conditions and his last name made life ever worse for him. However, like many real life boxers, baby Drago used his plight as a strength and motivation to better himself. And as such, baby Drago fights his way around Russia trying to restore his family name and before he can move to the U.S. and fight there, he must fight Russia's national champion. After defeating said national champion, Baby Drago earns the support of his country and sets his sight on America and Adonis for Creed II.

Just a thought.

 

Maybe their saving that for webisodes prior to Creed II?

 

I can't find it now but I think there's a Q&A with Stallone years ago on aintitcoolnews where he said that, yah, the post fight years were not kind to Drago to say the least.

 

Michael B. Jordan, Sylvester Stallone return to the gym in first Creed II photos

The second photo definitely builds anticipation for me, as I sense the gravitas in the photo.

 

@Sith_Sensei__Prime

This and judging by that second picture it looks like Little Tony is now in his corner mirroring his father who was Apollo's trainer. It all comes from circle!!

@BigAl6ft6

I remember reading that too though with Ivan I am not 100% sure that Sly was talking about him physically but rather emotionally and possibility financially. The cannon to Rocky is very loose for obvious reasons but according to some it, Ivan was actually in the fight game quite awhile. He eventually turn pro and went undefeated but never unified belt or got to fight top contenders due to what happened I assume with Apollo and Rocky. Be interesting if Ivan is not broken down physically as much (Dolph is training for this) but rather angry and bitter over what happened to him never fighting the "big fights" even though his only lost ever was to Rocky. Perhaps his son is a way of acting revenge on the world at least in his mind. I don't know just spit balling some ideas here!

 

I really hope they don't play Creed II out where Drago's son is out for revenge because over three decades ago Rocky (who is now Apollo's son's trainer) humiliated his father in front of all of Russia on the world's stage. It's too cliché. Rocky III served its purpose with a beginning (Apollo dies during the exhibition fight with Drago) and an end (Rocky wins triumphantly against Drago in Russia; suggesting to the world that they should put an end to the Cold War already).

It's funny; thinking of the Cold War setting from Rocky III and comparing it to Creed II. I wonder how they'll portray Russia now. I'd imagine they'd probably stay out of politics altogether.

 

Wrong again @Ahsoka's Tano
Do I need to tag @Diggy here to fix this as well?

 

I'm not a Rocky fan, but if @vin says you're wrong @Ahsoka's Tano then you are wrong.