Amph Gonna Fly Now: Rocky / Creed / Drago

Yeah I agree @The2ndQuest that whole dinner scene was chilling in a good way. I wish it would lasted longer too.

I enjoyed it as well. Not as good as good the first one but very solid. Some of the fight scenes I thought were unique and cool but also the difference in size between Viktor and Donnie was at times too unrealistic even for a Creed/Rocky movie. Like we discussed before Rocky was small for a heavyweight but he still was a heavyweight. Donnie though is small for a LIGHT HEAVYWEIGHT therefore to think he can go toe to toe with someone Viktor's size who makes his dad looks small was hard to swallow at times.

 

Rocky IV never got a sequel. not really. I mean, there are sequels to the movie and more Rocky franchise installments but Rocky IV but it looms so large in the franchise, hell you could say that Ivan Drago is the uber-baddie of the entire Rocky series since he freakin killed Apollo Creed! now I didn't really have time to revist Creed (aside from a quickie youtube watches of the training scene and the final steps scene) but I did rewatch Rocky IV beforehand and, yeah, 30+ years later that movie gets a pretty direct sequel in Creed II.

Hell even just the early scenes of the Dragos quietly stalking around were incredibly menacing or hell

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the shot of them on the steps! And looking at Rocky's statue! That's a travesty! Even Rocky himself mentions to Ivan when Ivan points out that all the photos there's nothing of him and Rocky's fight "I don't have anything of that." Everything about what Rocky/Creed/Ivan's fight is a really dark section of Rocky's history that he would prefer to forget until it comes roaring back.

Dundregen is straight up awesome in this movie, may be my favourite performance I've ever seen him do because Ivan is so damn embittered but still looks like he could take anyone's head off in his old age. That entire speech he does in Rocky's restaurant is straight up chilling. Awesome stuff.

Yes, the movie does have a lot of Donnie and his bride to be but honestly the Rocky franchise always has a lot of Rocky and/or Donnie talking with his love. But both actors are great anyway so it doesn't make it a chore.

But there's more than a few straight up callbacks / parallels with Rocky IV which I think work great

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when Donnie is beaten by Victor, the punches were so solid some kid in the row in front of me literally jerked back in his seat and bounced off my knees hahahaha. but it does play out very similarly to how Ivan worked over Apollo. But Donnie doesn't come in overconfident or almost suicidal like how Apollo did, he comes in angry, thinking that righteous vengeance will send him to victory. It doesn't. notice even how Donnie's training is isolated away, in the desert this time, kind of like how Rocky isolated himself in Russia and got back to basics.

Oh and what was amazing was when Rocky is watching Donnie get beaten in the first fight and he turns the TV off when Donnie goes down. Which is chilling because you'd figure Rocky would want to see if Donnie is okay but he turns it off out of horror, basically, because the exact same thing that happened to Apollo looks like it happened to Apollo's son, right there, again. Even Rocky can't deal with watching it again

The one scene of the Dragos and their former compatriots / mother / wife is really grand, very chilling. And especially at the end when the ex wife walks away and it saps out Victor's energy. Which leads to one of the movie's biggest twists, Ivan throwing in the towel for his son! First off, I think in 8 Rocky movies I can't remember a climax that ends with throwing in the towel which is the first time the series actually does it (after threatening to for decades). But the way that in the end, Ivan actually cares about his son, is really shocking. Because in the 1st fight, Ivan is goading his kid into taking out Donnie, saying "She left us because you can't finish him!", really crazy stuff. But it turns out Ivan can't lose his only boy when pushed to the edge. Like you see hints of a softer side Ivan underneath the exterior as the 2nd fight goes on, he even gently says "It's okay" to Victor which is a stark contrast to the way he's goading his kid in the 1st fight. Heck, there's even moments in Rocky IV where Ivan had a bit more depth to him, as he fights "For me!" So the fact he throws in the towel out of love of his son, and the fact that his ex wife and Russian buddies left again, shows there is more than a breaking machine in there. But it takes a bit to get it out.

As for Rocky himself, this one really ends with him saying to Donnie "It's your time now" so the baton has been passed again and again. there isn't a bigger Rocky verse bad for Rocky to be directly involved in again. Unless he dies on the sidelines like Micky which I really hope doesn't happen. But it'll be interesting to see if the Creed movies, if they do a 3rd one, if they can even draw from the Rocky backstory anymore because we have Creed's son and the Dragon confrontation, all of that is tied up. Just don't really want to see Rocky die on the sidelines as Creed fights Clubber Lang or ThunderLips offspring in Creed III, y'know?

but, yah, I talk a lot about the Dragos in this movie because this is really a direct continuation of Rocky IV and they loom large in the movie, which gives it a sense of menace and dramatic stakes which pays off.

oh and mega deleted scenes spoilers which sounds like it could have still been in there, maybe just pacing

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it does show the remorseful side of Ivan Drago that we see come out near the end

https://www.si.com/boxing/2018/11/2...h-lundgren-ivan-drago-redemption-fight-result

"He had remorse for it and I think the way it was described in the script is that he does tell Rocky, “I did not mean for your friend to die.” That line was taken out but I think he had remorse. He was a young man and obviously had to sort of take the blame off himself, a natural reaction. You want to blame other people, especially for something painful. So he blames it on Apollo, Apollo was just not strong enough to survive. You get in the ring in boxing, you get hurt, you get hurt. I think that’s how Drago thinks about it but I think inside he’s sorry about it. At the end there was a scene where me and Rocky kind of make up and I also make amends with Adonis for his father. There was a locker room scene that is not in the picture. I don’t know if it was too soft or it was too much maybe, or maybe it’s left for Creed III. I don’t know."

 

Interesting piece on how Lundgren got the part in Rocky IV and how he got slotted into Big Strong Guy roles from then on (which makes his really layered performance in Creed II so great). Also apparently there's a Ivan Drago monolouge in the Rocky IV trailer!

https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/h...dolph-lundgren-turned-a-monster-a-man-1162613

 

Back in July, on the first page of this thread, I posted this:

By recent comments of people that saw Creed II, this idea of a Viktor Drago film could have really worked.

 

I honestly tear up when I read that. But if it is indeed the character's last movie, it was a fitting way to retire him.

@Sith_Sensei__Prime

The first thought I had walking out was, "Creed III could be really interesting but holy hell Drago I would be incredible!"

 

Yah if you listen closely you can tell when it happens

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Drago goes "At least this Creed is still alive!" and slugs Rocky which looks like it takes place at the hospital, probably right after Donnie tells Rocky to get lost. In about 4 punches it has the dynamic of their first fight too, Drago overpowers Rocky off the jump but then Rocky comes in for body blows close up since he's a lot smaller. Dunno why they cut it, maybe pacing, maybe it made Drago seem to overbearing evil if he literally went to the hospital to gloat at Rocky and then assault him.

 

Yeah, just imagine if the was a Viktor Drago film before Creed II, where he's the protagonist. It would create sort of a dilemma of who the audience might want to root for. I mean, Viktor has a just as a compelling story to tell as Adonis. You can see that he's fighting for his dad above anything else. And in that...

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second fight with Adonis, Viktor was willing to die for his father love and pride. Whereas, Ivan threw in the towel to save his son from any permanent damage. All they had was each other.

As such, a Viktor Drago movie could have been an emotional father and son film.

If there's going to be a Creed III, I can't imagine it without Rocky. So, if that's the case, I'm not really satisfied with his character retiring. I mean,...

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I get there was a transitioning/passing of baton to a new trainer in Creed II, but it was in effective as Adonis got his butt kick by Viktor in that first fight. Which painted the picture of anything less that Rocky being Donnie's trainer is bad news for fight preparations.

It just seems odd to move on without Rocky in light of the way things went down in Creed II.

As for the film, I think I missed some things or the film was just sloppy with its geography. I could have sworn that Creed's mom lived in Los Angeles and Adonis and Bianca moved out there. But then is seemed they had an apartment in NYC. I mean, there was a shot of NYC and the Brooklyn Bridge after the...

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first fight with Viktor and Adonis was coming out of the hospital.

And there was a line by Rocky saying it took him three days on the train to make his way to visit Adonis in the hospital. I don't think it takes 3 days to take a train from Philly to NYC. So, this was way off.

Anyone else catch this?

 

Okay. That makes sense. I thought the first fight had taken place in Vegas.

 

@BigAl6ft6

Yeah I agree but

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also I think they just realized the idea of Rocky getting into a fistfight even a really short one would be really silly. The footage didn't look Rocky V Rocky-Tommy Gunn street bad but it did look kinda silly even how short it was and I am happy they yank it out of the film especially given like you mention it make the Dragos less sympathetic at the end of the movie.

@Sith_Sensei__Prime

Actually a colleague and I were talking about it this afternoon just after it got announced and

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think perhaps this is the only way for Creed to continue. If he doesn't breakaway from Rocky now, it will never really it's own story since not only will always have Rocky as a character to kinda bail him out like he did in Creed II (took Rocky's training to get him over the hump against VD though as @The2ndQuest mention, Little Duke did a good job training him for the first fight, he just didn't listen to his instructions and was too emotional) but also the storylines will always mirror each other which was one of the few complaints of Creed II. Now with Rocky being retired, Donnie/Creed franchise truly get a clean slate to build their own path though I am sure there will be references to Rocky being happy in retirement but always remembering his teaches/friendship. As for Rocky, it seems like he got the redemption he was looking for. I hate to say this but have to be honest too, Donnie turn out to be the student/surrogate son that Rocky wanted with Tommy Gun that didn't therefore so he was able to pass along his teachings for inside the ring and in life while he finally made peace with the whole Drago saga which IMHO turn out to be what was causing him to not connect with his son. So now he is able to reunite with his son and live out his retirement in peace having gotten what he needed with this last chapter. Now he gets enjoy his life with his son and his family being at peace finally with everything.

@The2ndQuest

Yeah I agree. I think the best way for Creed to continue is without Rocky but not a story where Creed is avenging his death or something like that. We saw that all in the Rocky movies. I still want to see Drago I though.

And as soon as I read the announcement, I began playing this and had it on a loop since. My wife cannot figure out why. I love her to death but she just doesn't get it LOL!

 

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is there an implication that Victor / Donnie fight #1 took place in NYC and then Donnie got hospital treatment in LA? What did they do, jet-lift him across the country? I coulda sworn Donnie is prepping in LA (which is why they leave Rocky behind) and the fight took place in Vegas.

As for Rocky himself, it'd be weird to do a Rocky movie without Rocky. Okay, it's Creed movies but Rocky weighs so heavily in these installments. It's sort of the same conundrum that the Star Wars sequel trilogy is facing but in those they've mainly had their focus is on the new generation of characters - the fact that Star Wars movies generally have sprawling ensemble characters helps dilute the hand off a bit. Although in both Creed movies it seems like a two-hander between Rocky and Donnie. Moreso than the Rocky/Mickey relationship.

But what do you do with Rocky? Sit him entirely out a whole Creed movie? Eh, no thanks. Maybe a motivational speech. Rocky watching the fight alone in his restaurant was really dramatic. Because if he hangs on as Donnie's trainer, we're rapidly approaching "Rocky dies like Mickey at ringside due to stress during a particularly bad beating" and ain't nobody wants to see that!

 

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Yeah the first fight between Adonis and Viktor took place in Las Vegas. I think they even showed at one point it was the MGM Grand but I could be wrong on that. It was part of the reason why AC was so emotional for the fight. Not only was fighting Drago they were doing it in the same city where his dad was killed hence why the theatrics at the beginning mirroring his dad trying to "rewrite history" instead of creating his own path as Rocky instructed him too.

@BigAl6ft6

Granted this is just my opinion so please to all those who love the ST do not take it personally but to Donnie is a much more establish character then the new heroes of the ST (at least so far, still keeping my mind open for Episode IX) therefore the audience are vested into seeing what happens next. Again by having Rocky bow out gracefully at this point is a really good point as I mentioned earlier, he finally is at peace and got the personal redemption he was seeking out. With Rocky no longer in the movies, Creed III can really go into unfamiliar terroritory storywise but audiences IMHO will be okay with it since again Donnie is a character their invested in plus they can rest assure Rocky is happy retired spending QT with his son and family and don't have to worry about a possible Rocky III remake which like you said, nobody wanted to see.

 

Okay, maybe (eep, spoilers)

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Donnie goes to Grandpa Rocky who is happy being Grandpa Rocky for a quick motivational speech or so. I know Stallone put up a dramatic instagram post but he's said he's done with Rocky, like, 3 times at least already and I don't think it's implausible for showing up again. Full on training Donnie again seems like a losing proposition at this point.

 

I just hope Creed III doesn't have Adonis fighting the son of Clubber Lang. I would have rather seen Apollo fight Clubber, since it was Apollo's technique that helped Rocky beat Clubber.

You might be right, but when I was watching the movie I didn't that sentiment. Here are a fear reasons why I didn't think that Adonnis...

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lost the first fight with Viktor out of fear. First of all, I never got the sense that Donnie feared fighting Viktor. I mean, I can't recall anything in the film that suggested that. I felt more like Donnie was fighting Viktor for the wrong reasons, which was conveyed in two or three scenes in the film. The first scene where Donnie shows up at Rocky's home in the middle of night asking Rocky to train him. Rocky turns down Donnie and asks him why do you want to fight Viktor? And Rocky goes on to tell Donnie that Viktor is dangerous because he's a fight that has nothing to lose, whereas as Donnie as everything to lose. And sometime around the point where Donnie is in the hospital, IIRC, Donnie blames his loss on Rocky because Rocky knew lost the fight before he got into the ring and because Rocky didn't train him. I think there was also a mention in the scene where Rocky shows up at Donnie's mom's house in Apollo's trophy room that Donnie wasn't in the right place mentally to fight Viktor. So, to me, it wasn't that Adonnis was afraid to fight Viktor, but rather him not matching the desire and desperation of a fighter with nothing to lose but everything to gain. Once Rocky saw that in Donnie's heart that he was fighting Viktor the right reason, Rocky agreed to train him for the rematch.

And Rocky provided the proper technique and regiment for Donnie to take on Viktor in the desert where he made Donnie a close range fighter. Remember that training/sparing method where Rocky had Donnie put one foot in the tire. And Rocky having Donnie run the road behind the car was to build endurance and the mental fortitude to get back up after being knocked down. I mean, that's essentially the Rocky key to fighting;

Well, I totally get Rocky...

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reconnecting with his son and getting to know his grandson, (who did look like his grandmother, Adrian) but within the context of the film, I didn't feel like it was Rocky farewell to the franchise. I mean, he didn't say goodbye to Donnie or convey that Donnie was ready to move on without Rocky. I felt like his relationship with Donnie allowed him to finally reach out to his son, and as such, Rocky would always be in Donnie's corner for as long as Donnie needed him or until Rocky couldn't physically coach him any more. It's not like training Donnie would take most of Rocky's time away from his family, as Donnie has a family of his own to spend time with and of course heal between fights. And let's not forget, Rocky is family to Donnie as Donnie call him "Unc." So, it's just doesn't feel right that Rocky will just drop off from the franchise.

For me, I would have like to seen a scene like this...



Where Rocky and Adonnis mutually part ways because their lives have reached the fork in the road, but they have that final farewell.

So, I feel unsatisfied that we didn't get that moment between Rocky and Donnie.

 

One Rocky IV plotline that really could be followed up and, nay, could be the emotional basis for Creed III