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Discussion The Sanctuary - (Dissenters Unite! - Warning on page 232)

Discussion in 'Star Wars: Sequel Trilogy (Released Films)' started by BretHart, Dec 13, 2017.

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  1. JamieH

    JamieH Jedi Knight star 2

    Registered:
    Dec 25, 2015
    Well that would at least make some sense. Though Vader was still Vader from age 20-40 (or whatever the age range between ROTS and ANH was). We just didn't see it on screen.
     
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  2. AhsokaSolo

    AhsokaSolo Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Dec 23, 2015
    This is why the angst between Rey and kylo is dumb. If Rey is hot for Kylo while he’s killing her pals, I don’t care how torn she is about it any more than I care how torn Kylo is about gutting Han Solo and pushing him off a bridge still alive. If they wanted to go that way, with Rey and Kylo’s motives boiled down to them wanting to hook up, shut about it and hook them up. Then go back to the good guys who have to defeat them to survive.

    It rings so dumb to me because Anakin was like 22 when he slaughtered Jedi toddlers.
     
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2018
  3. JamieH

    JamieH Jedi Knight star 2

    Registered:
    Dec 25, 2015
    Bah, slaughtering a roomful of innocent children doesn't make you a villain, does it? Maybe in the OT instead of having scary, evil Vader, Lucas should have focused on finding Vader a romantic link. Because he was just "misunderstood."
     
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  4. Nipuhanipera

    Nipuhanipera Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    May 25, 2014
    I don't know if Kylo is torn, but he is definitely ripped. Which is why girls are supposed to like him. :)
     
  5. Jedi Jessy

    Jedi Jessy Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Feb 28, 2016
    But she said
    "Kylo Ren seems to have taken many bad decisions, but they aren’t necessarily bad decisions within the context of Star Wars, where they can lead to almost anything."

    To me, it looks like KK thinks Kylo is sympathetic character
     
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  6. Gharlane

    Gharlane Jedi Grand Master star 3

    Registered:
    Dec 30, 2000
    I think fundamentally within the narrative of the Star Wars saga, the "Wars" in the title is the conflict between competing political systems and ideals. For example in the PT, it's between the Old Republic (which hasn't faced a conflict for a 1000 years) against the corporate minded CIS and how both sides fight the conflict is representational of the dueling political visions. One is a democracy that hasn't really engaged in a conflict for a thousand years and depend on a religious order of space wizards (and later clones) to defend them while the more commercial minded CIS manufacture themselves an army to fight the Republic. The same is true of the OT conflict between the Empire vs the Rebel Alliance. One side is conscripted/cloned (if we are to believe older Legends material) cowed/controlled by the totalitarian and technocratic systems of the Empire while the other are free men/women/aliens/droids that seek to restore democracy. Ultimately I think this element is what is missing from the ST since we are stuck with a repetition of the Empire vs Rebel conflict. And the only thing JJ/RJ have bought to the table is postulating that the totalitarian systems might actually be superior (while actually ignoring all the real and fictional history showing these systems are fragile and weak) and democracy is in fact weak. Ultimately I think the lack of thought put into the political angle with dueling political systems just makes the ST feel less authentic compared to the OT/PT. Instead the creators are more interested in visuals and explosions and less in world building, lore or showcasing some greater truth (like with the OT/PT) and we are just left with the OT's greatest hits redone for modern consumption.
     
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2018
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  7. powerfulforce

    powerfulforce Jedi Grand Master star 3

    Registered:
    Mar 16, 2005
    Probably why they didn’t allow him to have a giant hideous scar where Rey cut him. I find it funny that they try to say they’re being so progressive, but are doing all of the things that many people are against. Instead of letting Finn be a strong, conflicted character about his place in all of this, he is a relegated to comic relief. On top of that he’s also a janitor who happens to know where everything important is because he used to clean then. How is that a strong black character? He even had to have someone highlight how bad things really were. You mean the character who was kidnapped as a child, forced into labor by a terrorist organization and saw the slaughter of innocent people has to have it highlighted to him just how bad things are in the galaxy? Then there is Rey. This film could have been the one to knock her down a peg, learn something. I would have loved it if turned out Luke was training other students, planning on whether or not to re-enter the stage as the galaxy is still wary to people who can use the Force. For one thing the Clone Wars had Count Dooku and then the galaxy would have found out that Darth Vader was Anakin Skywalker. It seemed to be somewhat common knowledge as even Rey knew that story. To many in the galaxy the ones who inflicted the most amount of pain were Force users/Jedi. Not just ordinary Jedi, but ones who were celebrated heroes before turning to the dark side. The average person wouldn’t see a difference between the Sith and the Jedi, especially looking at the more infamous examples. This would have been a great aspect to explore. So Luke training his students in a hidden temple would have been interesting. We could see the other students not exactly warm up to an outsider like Rey, maybe even best her in a duel and tell her that she got lucky in her fight with Kylo Ren. The story is paper thin right now and I can’t think of a way to course correct it.
     
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2018
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  8. Nipuhanipera

    Nipuhanipera Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    May 25, 2014
    Wow, I never thought of it that way. I guess it's a real possibility. [face_dunno]
     
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  9. DarthTalonx

    DarthTalonx Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 12, 2014

    I concur. I actually thought the politics/status quo in both the OT (The Imperial Senate, the mentions of the hunting down of the Jedi Knights) and the PT (the vote of no confidence, the emergency powers, the declaration of the Empire and that the Jedi coup was thwarted, the death of the Separatist Council and the only ones left to oppose Palpatine) was supremely interesting.


    I think this kinda background explanation/flashbacks and even occurrences were absolutely vital in a sequel trilogy that is meant to continue the story and link and conclude the entire saga.


    Herein lies the problem where the sequel galaxy doesn't correlate with what we have just seen. The "Wars" indeed is meant to be the confrontation between opposing views on how to control the galaxy. Which is also meant to be a struggle. Palpatine (Darth Sidious the Patient) plans for SO LONG and so METICULOUSLY and BRILLIANTLY to take over the galaxy. The Jedi are betrayed. The CIS amasses a massive army to take on the peacekeeping Jedi and force the Republic to change its ways and become what they want. The Rebellion is seen as an overwhelming struggle.





    The messy situation in the sequels is not explained. Where is the Empire of old? I.e. the legitimate government of the galaxy? Where is the Jedi Order supposedly to have returned. What is the New Republic, which we are not even shown at all! Who are the First Order? Who apparently do what the CIS, the Rebels, not even Palpatine (in transforming the Republic) did in the span of what 48 hours??


    I think the lack of world building, of a context and reason for this struggle (the Wars) is another reason why it doesn't hold up well. It also lacks a connection/flow with the one saga concept and as to where the Skywalker focus is.


    Yes the OT repeat is obvious. Sad that with modern technology they could have made perhaps the greatest trilogy in the franchise. Had they simply followed Lucas' scripts and his storytelling magic. Had they followed his galaxy and continued the story, not retell it in this weird way.

















    I agree it really comes across as tokens instead of contextual strong characters. Rey isn't like Padme or Leia, or Jyn Erso. Instead she is there because she is she. And made invulnerable. Finn is there and doesn't really meld into the story unlike Han or Luke. Poe is there to be like Han? I don't know. They really don't seem to have been fit into a story. The concept here seems to be more is more and more is required. So load up on quantity over quality.


    Areas where they did well, like Rose's sister who sacrificed herself, now THAT is a character you want to see. Expand on those characters.


    Also potentially this:


    I wish the Battlefront 2 trailer (which suggested Iden tracked Luke down originally for revenge, but maybe ended up making a baby (cough Rey) with him) had happened. Although they completely changed that.

    Luke being Vader's heir would have surely meant some Imperials would have sought him out to ensure a peaceful transition? I hope JJ has a long term sequel plan for Luke and the story?


    We still don't know, Luke may have had a family, and may still have one. I believe that is what Lucas intended. Hopefully what they are carrying out. And we may see this in Episode IX , fingers crossed! Imagine this in Episode 7 or 8, Luke telling someone (possibly even Rey over a fire)


    I came here to find the secrets of the Jedi. Of the Force itself. Whilst I was away, they came for them. Those who didn't turn, they killed. I should never have left....but whatever I do causes pain to those around me...

    Master Skywalker, you have to come back. The galaxy needs the Jedi!

    Leia and Han once thought like you did. You don't know the power of the Supreme Leader. What he was able to achieve. Not even his former apprentice, with all his power, and his Empire could achieve that. You think that one Jedi can defeat that? They'll come after everything you have, everyone you care about, as they did with me. No one should have died [pain in Luke's eye's] because of that. I made sure that those I care about most, will never die or be associated with me...

    I was told that you could help us. And help me. You were the myth that kept us going. I never had a family. All I remember is that they left me. You still have one. You could still go back to them.

    Are you really ready to do whatever it takes to defeat them? Because once you do, you won't be a Jedi any longer...

    What do you mean?

    Once I had a wife, my great love. She was taken from me. I found her by the Temple, itself in flames. Like you, I was forced to learn that there are those without decency that must be fought without hesitation, without mercy. But I must do that alone.


    Maybe. Hopefully Luke gets revealed to have hidden Rey on Jakku, suppressed her memories to protect her identity and keep her safe. Her mother hopefully is an Imperial like Iden, who died trying to protect the Temple in his absence. Her family will eventually come to to the rescue of Leia and the Rebellion. They will be the left over Empire on Coruscant.

    Maybe Rey is powerful as Luke's offspring.

    The Force is strong in my family. I have it. My sister has it. You have that power too.


    Those words, maybe she will remember as she remembered or saw other things upon touching her family heirloom/lightsaber. Perhaps Luke has believed her to be gone so long, he did not recognise her. Well just a theory or hope at this point.
     
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2018
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  10. DarthTalonx

    DarthTalonx Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 12, 2014
    Couldn't we have Gal Gadot as a witty Jedi Knight in the ST? Liked her in Wonderwoman.



    Also Anna Akana:



    I actually thought Rose's sister's necklace had something to do with the Force. Maybe that's just a hope.

    Where was the Return of the Jedi after Episode VI? And a cool Empire?
     
  11. A Chorus of Disapproval

    A Chorus of Disapproval New Films Fearless Vampire Killer star 8 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Aug 19, 2003
    Gal Gadot will be filming Wonder Woman 2 at exactly the same time as Episode IX's shoot. And, she is also in talks to be the Bride of Frankenstein. Because I didn't already adore her enough as Wonder Woman.
     
  12. Birkendoc

    Birkendoc Co-Purveyor of ST Trivia star 4 VIP - Game Host

    Registered:
    Sep 20, 2001
    Wait, Bride of Frankestein? Now that is awesome.
     
  13. A Chorus of Disapproval

    A Chorus of Disapproval New Films Fearless Vampire Killer star 8 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Aug 19, 2003
    Indeed. In the classic phrasing, "Takest thou my monies".
     
  14. Birkendoc

    Birkendoc Co-Purveyor of ST Trivia star 4 VIP - Game Host

    Registered:
    Sep 20, 2001
    So who is slated to play th Frankenstein monster? And Frankenstein himself for that matter? I need more information. You were just teasing me! Take all of my money and some for popcorn too!


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  15. A Chorus of Disapproval

    A Chorus of Disapproval New Films Fearless Vampire Killer star 8 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Aug 19, 2003
    Javier Bardem as The Monster. No other casting. Although, I would imagine a cameo by Russel Crowe in reprisal of his role as Jekyll from The Mummy.
     
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  16. Birkendoc

    Birkendoc Co-Purveyor of ST Trivia star 4 VIP - Game Host

    Registered:
    Sep 20, 2001
    Say no more, I’m throwing all my money at it


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  17. Jedi Ben

    Jedi Ben Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Jul 19, 1999
    Yeah, that could be quite the Fronk-en-steen film.
     
  18. SaintKenobi1322

    SaintKenobi1322 Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jul 17, 2013
    Didn’t RJ straight-up say he changed the scar because he thought it would look goofy?

    Y’all, all the warning signs were there. It is so obvious in hindsight that RJ was just going to do whatever he wanted.
     
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  19. Birkendoc

    Birkendoc Co-Purveyor of ST Trivia star 4 VIP - Game Host

    Registered:
    Sep 20, 2001
    Blucher!

    *horse neighs in the distance*
     
  20. ImpreciseStormtrooper

    ImpreciseStormtrooper Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Jan 8, 2016
    I get that reference.

    Yeesh. Getting old.
     
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  21. MagnarTheGreat

    MagnarTheGreat Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jul 21, 2016


    Yeah, and first he tweeted there was no change of scar. Then there was an uproar for a couple of days. And then...



    I'd say the original scar is less 'goofy' than the inappropriate placement of many attempts at humor in The Last Jedi.
     
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2018
  22. JamieH

    JamieH Jedi Knight star 2

    Registered:
    Dec 25, 2015
    Gee, what is goofier, his scar in 7, or the idea that someone's scar magically teleported between 2 movies?

    I'm beginning to think Rian Johnson is really bad at this movie thing.
     
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  23. JamieH

    JamieH Jedi Knight star 2

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    Dec 25, 2015
    https://io9.gizmodo.com/rian-johnson-changed-kylo-rens-scar-in-last-jedi-becaus-1794465732

    This is the difference in scars. He didn't "slightly adjust it". He moved the thing like two inches across his forehead and changed the shape.

    Now, does it really matter? No. But is shows that RJ just doesn't care about continuity, detail, or anything that came before him. He just blows it all up to service himself.

    Maybe that is what happened to Luke. RJ saw Luke's personality as being "goofy" so he "slightly adjusted it".
     
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2018
  24. Blastaar

    Blastaar Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 25, 2015
    the scar placement seemed to be about making him look "cool" and less grotesque.
     
  25. JDN21

    JDN21 Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 17, 2004
    You could spend a lifetime thinking of fun ideas for the ST. Pretty much anything slightly creative would be better than the rehash they delivered.

    It's like Lucasfilm were just obsessed with the idea of having Luke in exile so that he wouldn't take the shine off new characters rather than actually thinking through a story worth telling and go from there.

    How amazing would it have been to have seen a growing New Republic lead by the victorious Rebel leaders including Leia, a new, leaner, modern Jedi Order that dispensed of the robes and stuffy approach of the PT, and a very different threat rather than Empire 2.0?

    If they wanted to take Star Wars in a fresh, new direction, they could have done literally anything other than what they are doing! Perhaps even a Star Wars film for Episode 7 that is set during peace time, but more engaged with Cold War-style espionage and a deep-dive in to Force stuff.
     
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