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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

Discussion The Scribble Pad (Fanfic Writing Discussions)

Discussion in 'Fan Fiction and Writing Resource' started by Briannakin , Jun 18, 2017.

  1. Briannakin

    Briannakin Former Manager star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Feb 25, 2010
    Woooo!!!! Last night I was able to sit down and write the first ~1800 words of a long fic. I haven’t been able to do that in years due to my wrist injury but I’m not even in a whole lot of pain today (getting a tablet was definitely a solid decision). It’s also my first REAL attempt at a long fic in like 6 years so I’m super excited and knocking on all the wood that my muse doesn’t give up after 5000 words as it has done so often. I have an outline of the first 7 chapters and it’s a retelling of the story with an AU twist, which I normally don’t like doing retellings but at least I can go back to the book for inspiration (or skip over entire scenes of the book because this is my fanfic and I can do what I want!).

    But, yeah… I’m trying to remember all my strategies from like 8 years ago for keeping my muse motivated on this fic because I really want to write it. It’s okay to ignore challenges if I have a run away muse, and it’s okay to take a break (maybe do a few challenges or other vignettes), then come back to it. Thankfully this fandom is fairly popping and has a really great discord(which I feel like a grandma in) so hopefully I’ll have a ton of support once I start posting.

    any other tips for long fics I’ve forgotten?
     
  2. darkspine10

    darkspine10 Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Dec 7, 2014
    Maybe to keep a log of any notable dialogue or descriptions you think of in advance? I often come across a random bit of inspiration that I jot down for later, even if I'm not sure where it'll eventually fit. In longer fics I find it helps too, cause you have some freedom to move bits around and they'll still more or less fit.

    In the last fic I wrote I also expanded it to about double the length, merely cause I thought it was paced better that way. The plan never changed, just the way it was meted out over the full length.
     
  3. Briannakin

    Briannakin Former Manager star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Feb 25, 2010
    Yes! I kept grabbing my phone last night as I was trying to fall asleep because I kept thinking of scenes and character motivations (for some reason that’s the one thing I really struggle with when actually writing but they come to me as I’m falling asleep or in the shower, and I know myself better than to think I’ll remember because I never do). I’m going to have to start keeping a notepad by my bed (because I try to avoid screens as I fall asleep).

    and yeah, my outline is open enough for change. I also have an ending in mind, and the plot is much more about a character arc so, I doubt it will be a full retelling of the book, and I have a few different spots where I can stick the ending to this fic depending on how long my muse sticks with the story.
     
  4. Dark Ferus

    Dark Ferus Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Jul 29, 2016
    I’m thinking for completions sake, I will eventually finish my Chitty Chitty 3.


    After I finish my Episode IX- I’m thinking I want to write a story idea I have for Spider-Man 4- it is strictly a finale rather than a continuation. It involves a 15 years older Peter and MJ, with their kids. Lizard and Kraven are the two villains, but they are working against each other.
    - realistically may not see daylight until 2023.

    I also have an idea for a Calvin and Hobbes movie. The basic premise is that Calvin is 9, and his dad decided it’s time for him to get rid of Hobbes because of how much his imagination is taking over the rest of his life. - also 2023, if not 2024
     
    Last edited: Feb 22, 2022
  5. devilinthedetails

    devilinthedetails Fiendish Fanfic & SWTV Manager, Interim Tech Admin star 6 Staff Member Administrator

    Registered:
    Jun 19, 2019
    My apologies in advance if this post seems kind of word vomit-y. I am struggling emotionally with a comment I received on a multi-chapter, in progress Tamora Pierce fanfic I am writing over at Archive of Our Own. I don't want to sound arrogant or like I think my stories are perfect (I know they are not--no story is perfect, especially not one written by me). I don't expect people who read my story to leave a comment, even if they like it. Especially on Archive of Our Own, a lot of my readers just leave kudos when they like my work as a show of appreciation, and that's a nice enough gesture as far as I'm concerned. So, basically, it doesn't bother me if I write a story and get no comments on it. It doesn't really register as a negative for me because a bulk of my feedback comes in the form of kudos and bookmarks over there, and that seems to be the nature of the site, or at least the nature of the site in the fandoms where I write.

    Most of the time for me a comment is like icing on the cake. Something sweet and extra I wasn't expecting. So I would say that I deeply appreciate 99.9% of the comments I receive across sites. They are super motivational and make my day and make me see rainbows and unicorns and feel all the golden feelings in the world.

    The flip side of that is I sometimes get a .1% comment that makes me feel like my work just isn't understood or appreciated and is therefore super demotivating to me.

    I don't want to necessarily dump all the blame on the commenters who make me feel that way since some of it is definitely what I bring to the table, psychologically and emotionally. Like I know I am super sensitive to criticism, and it is kind of a coping/compensation mechanism I've developed for dealing with my high-functioning autism like if I get negative feedback or backlash of any sort, it registers to me very strongly as "Note to self: do not do that again. You must have violated one of those social rules you didn't even know existed and unintentionally offended people again." And I also struggle with generalized anxiety disorder and low self-esteem because of abuse I experienced as a child. So criticism can definitely cut deeper with me than for a lot of other people, and it can feed into my anxiety, and lower my self-esteem. I know that in a sense these issues are mine to deal with, and I don't necessarily expect readers/reviewers to know about them or take them into account when engaging with me. Especially since I don't always disclose those details about myself. It takes a lot of courage and willingness to make myself vulnerable to disclose private stuff like that. So I have disclosed on here (where everyone has been super nice and supportive) but not so much on Archive of Our Own where there is less space for discussions like this that allow me to feel like I am really getting to know and connect with other users of the site.

    That being said, I do kind of wish that .1% of reviewers would take a stance of, "I don't know what demons or difficulties the author may be dealing with right now, so if I don't have anything nice and positive to say about their story, I just won't say anything at all. I'll just hit the back button and move on with my life."

    I guess to me I've kind of reached a point in my fanfic writing life where I don't want unsolicited constructive criticism that often doesn't feel constructive to me. Just hurtful. I write fanfic in my leisure time. It is one way I have to enjoy myself and de-stress and be creative and hopefully engage in some lovely dialogue with readers and other authors. And I share my stories in the hope that even one or two readers might enjoy what I post. The one or two readers who might enjoy what I write are my target audience in a sense, and anyone who doesn't enjoy what I write is just not my target audience. I know I write kind of niche stuff (more often general fic than romance; more focused on themes, character development, and world building than action or adventure, etc) so I don't expect popularity or acclaim or anything like that.

    I guess it's kind of like to me if my hobby was baking and I shared a tray of white chocolate macadamia cookies I made. I wouldn't be offended if someone chose not to eat the cookies because they are allergic to nuts or they don't like white chocolate or they are trying to watch their sugar intake or whatever. But if someone does take a cookie, I think it is nice to say "Thank you for the cookie" (leave a kudos/make a positive comment) or at least not say anything negative like, "These cookies would've been better if they were crunchier." And it becomes especially annoying to have someone be like, "I'm disappointed these are white chocolate macadamia cookies and not snickerdoodle cookies" when the cookies were labeled as white chocolate macadamia cookies.

    I guess bottom line is if I write a white chocolate macadamia cookie story, that's the story I wanted to write, not a snickerdoodle one, and I would like readers to engage with and appreciate it for what it is instead of wishing it were something totally different like a snickerdoodle cookie story.

    I mostly deal with the .1% of reviewers by still trying to be polite but it does take a toll on me emotionally and psychologically and decrease my motivation to write.

    Does anyone else struggle with these feelings and insecurities? Is not wanting constructive criticism on fanfic writing (basically hobby writing) make someone a worse writer or arrogant in your opinion or do you understand and find that natural that at least some fanfic authors will feel that way?
     
  6. Thumper09

    Thumper09 Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 9, 2001
    [:D] I'm sorry you're having to deal with this. To answer one of your last questions first, there's absolutely nothing wrong with not desiring concrit for a hobby pursuit. Hobbies are supposed to be fun, not stressful. I think that's one of the reasons offering concrit here is frowned upon if it's not specifically stated to be accepted by the author, and I think I know more people who want to keep it positive and fun for themselves than the other way around.

    Dealing with negative comments is always hard, especially if it's disguised as being "helpful" and "constructive" but actually isn't. One of my favorite authors even wrote an advice chapter for aspiring authors on how to deal with negative feedback, and I wish I could link to it but I heard it in an audiobook. If I find it on his blog or something, I'll post a link.

    I don't think this anecdote will be entirely comparable to what you experienced, but maybe bits and pieces might be relatable. Years ago I was part of a writing group that met in person once a month. The other members were all trying to get published professionally, and then there I was, the lone fanfic hobbyist writer. It took me a long time to get up the nerve to submit one of my fanfic chapters to the group for critique, but I finally did. So that critique meeting comes around, and I'm sitting in a room with a dozen other people, and they go around the room for each person to take a turn saying, out loud, their comments and critique of the chapter I'd submitted. The receiving author wasn't supposed to talk during the critiquing session.

    We got to one particular person, and they started talking about their impressions. Then they said something that directly contradicted what I'd put in the prose. It wasn't a different interpretation or unclear writing-- it was the equivalent of my prose including the sentence "The sky is blue" and this person commenting on how it was such an interesting decision to make the sky be red. I smiled and nodded, and I even remember seeing the other people in the room looking at each other like "??". But that comment is the only one from that night that's still stuck with me years later. It wasn't even particularly negative, but it threw me so much and I started wondering how another author could read what I wrote in black and white and come away with something completely not what I intended. My writing must be horrible.

    I obsessed over it for a long time, trying to figure out how to fix it and prevent it from happening again. I even started changing my writing style to spoon-feed the readers more, so I began writing stories that went "The sky is blue. It's not red, it's blue. Did you hear me? It's blue! HONEST, IT'S BLUE!" I developed a horrible habit from it, and backing off from that and learning how to let readers draw their own conclusions and read between the lines, even if their interpretation might not match what's in my head, has been a struggle for me. This has been a very long way of saying that I get the feeling of one's work not being understood, and how that notion can worm its way into one's brain. I had to consciously convince myself that that comment was an outlier, that everyone else knew the sky was blue in my story, and maybe the commenter just wasn't paying attention, and that's on them, not on me. I can't control what they pay attention to or how they choose to word things. If the person doesn't read the white chocolate macadamia label, that's on them. I've heard way too many stories about ads that say "For Sale, Widget, $10" and the numerous replies the seller gets asking how much it costs or that $10 is too much and the seller should give them the widget for free. People are weird.

    It's a shame some people aren't more conscientious and understanding before leaving unhelpful feedback, and it's definitely a rough thing as a receiving author to go through. The dump truck analogy helps me intellectually at times like that, though it doesn't necessarily make the emotional sting disappear.

    I hope your day gets better! [:D]
     
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2022
  7. ViariSkywalker

    ViariSkywalker Chosen One star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 9, 2002
    @devilinthedetails I really want to give you a big hug right now. [:D] I went through something very similar to this a few weeks ago, and if it weren't for my amazingly supportive friends and a well-timed response to one of my stories that actually was very positive and encouraging, my creative well might have dried up completely and I wouldn't be writing the things I'm writing right now. It was a really difficult situation for me - I actually get shaky just thinking about it, which seems like such a ridiculous reaction, but there it is - and even with my friends encouraging me, I still had feelings of "Well, if I'm really such a good writer, why can't I accept constructive criticism? Why is my writing so unclear that this person doesn't understand what's happening? Do I even understand any of the characters I'm writing or the story I'm telling or how to craft a compelling narrative, and why didn't I think of all these little nitpicky details before now, is it because I'm not smart enough to have thought of them? Does the fact that I want to write the white chocolate macadamia story make me more shallow than if I were writing the snickerdoodle story?"... and so on and so on.

    I don't have time right now to write as much in response as I would like to, but for now, just know that you did nothing wrong, and you're not wrong or weak or arrogant or somehow less because you don't want unsolicited constructive criticism (or just unsolicited criticism, let's be real, because I get the feeling there probably wasn't anything "constructive" about the comments you received.) Again: this is not on you. The problem is the person who felt compelled to leave you a comment when they could have just hit the back button.
     
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2022
  8. pronker

    pronker Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 28, 2007
    It surely does take its toll and is completely natural to think about it. I'd keep going back to it for most of the afternoon and similarly to what you've described, wonder what I could have written to make it agreeable to all concerned. *bleurgh* I've found little interaction on AO3, which contains my nicest comment ever and also the one that rhymes with "duck shoe." fanfictionDAHTNET is much the same. I just erase the comments because once I've wrung every last drop out of them, it's time to move along. Best wishes for an easier time of it, pronker
     
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  9. Seldes_Katne

    Seldes_Katne Force Ghost star 3

    Registered:
    Mar 18, 2002
    One of my degrees is in Newspaper Journalism from Syracuse University. I jokingly tell people that I have survived the Severus Snape School of Newspaper Editing, because our Editing professor loved to read someone's work out loud and then rip it to shreds in front of the entire class. With the author's name attached, so everyone knew who it was. Probably the most important thing I learned in that class was that there are ways to help someone improve their writing without treating them like garbage (and that my professor apparently knew none of them).

    Granted, as a journalist, my work was going to be out in the public eye and I would be receiving criticism from plenty of people and needed to learn to take it. But fanfiction is a different deal. Criticism (constructive or otherwise), should be done in private. And unsolicited criticism should be offered only if you've already contacted the fanfic author and asked if they want it. If you get no response or they say, "No," then take it at face value and drop the subject. No one needs any more grief than they're already getting in life.

    So, no, @devilinthedetails, it's not you. Mr. or Ms. "Point One Percent" is the one who violated the social rules that pretty much any decent human being should know. You keep writing. The rest of us here will have your back.
     
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  10. amidalachick

    amidalachick Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 3, 2003
    @devilinthedetails I'm sorry you have to deal with that, and I know it can definitely take a toll emotionally and mentally. Big hugs to you. [:D]

    I don't have much to add to all the excellent posts above. But I do want to repeat the points made that it's the commenter who has a problem, not you. They actively chose to leave a mean comment and that's entirely on them. If someone clicks on a story and doesn't like it for whatever reason, that's what the back button or the 'x' in the corner are for.

    I also totally understand the feelings of insecurity and demotivation. I struggle with them all the time. I don't know if this is helpful at all, but last summer I was already struggling to write and one day I accidentally clicked on an 'anti' tag for one of my favorite ships. The level of hatred and toxicity directed at fictional characters, a fictional relationship (it's not even canon), and the people who liked this ship was mind-blowing. That experience, not even directed at my fics personally, made me stop writing entirely for a little bit. I felt so bad about shipping these characters and I even started wondering if liking this ship really did make me a terrible person. Was it a complete overreaction and silly of me to get so worked up about it? Yes. Were the feelings real anyway? Yes. I eventually decided I didn't want some random strangers (who are obviously dealing with severe issues of their own) to dictate what I can and can't enjoy in my own life, so I started rereading some of my favorite fics in that fandom and then I started dabbling in writing again. But it really wasn't easy. Anyway, all that is to say I completely sympathize with how you are feeling now.

    And finally, I agree that there is absolutely nothing wrong with not wanting criticism, constructive or otherwise! As a depressed perfectionist with anxiety I know how difficult (sometimes impossible) it can be to convince yourself it's okay to do something just because it's fun and you want to. But it is! It is totally okay to just have fun and do what makes you happy!

    [:D]
     
  11. gizkaspice

    gizkaspice Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 27, 2013
    I totally emphasize and I do not take criticism well either because of dealing with a lot of negative experiences and negative people in life. Being sensitive to criticism does start to become a coping mechanism and I also agree with that "note to self, don't do this again" and for me, it's also dwelling on it. I think it's very easy to take it personally as well, but what I try to remember is that it's not about me, it's about them if they leave a rude comment. Constructive feedback (I don't even like calling this "constructive criticism" because criticism is NEVER helpful) is not something most people do well since they don't know how to frame it as actual feedback.

    Even though the last statement is indeed negative, it could easily become something constructive using an "I" statement. Like, "I would have personally preferred the cookies to be crunchier. I can suggest adding more flour if you choose to appeal to a wider audience of cooker eaters" (or something, I am literally making this up). The last one is more about them, the commenter, and not about you or your story. The first one is finding a fault, the second is giving a suggestion. I think often (as I mentioned) people just don't know how to frame the feedback and I completely agree it can feel like an attack on you (and your story).

    I would say this is totally normal! I also feel it's up to the author to DECIDE (or write explicitly) that they want that kind of feedback and not up to the reader. I also think it's totally reasonable to reply and say you weren't looking for constructive criticism, or really just ignore them completely. It doesn't make you arrogant; it makes you in control of your story and any feedback you receive.
     
  12. Briannakin

    Briannakin Former Manager star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Feb 25, 2010
    I get this. I am currently working on my first long-fic in like 8 years and I'm posting it over to AO3 while getting to know some of my fellow writers on the fandom discord (waaaay different than here. People are (mostly) kind and encouraging but it just isn't the place for lengthy intellectual engagement over there as there is here. Anyways). Posting over on AO3 is scaring the fodder out of me. As you said, it's an environment of Kudos and the occasional comment, which have so far been so sweet and encouraging, even if they tend to be REALLY quick (which, I'm not one to judge, I'm horrible with my comments beyond "I really love it!" etc). And I'm writing in a decently active book fandom - so not like the popularity of Star Wars... but it's also not a TV show that's been off the air for nearly 20 years (which is what I had been writing in).

    But as I mentioned, it's my first long fic in like 8 years, and there's a good reason for that. My brain just fails miserably at anything over 5k words. My muse tends to wander off and I have a habit of rushing endings because, in my eyes, a finished fic is better than a perfect one. I am currently 22k into this fic with another ~3k left to go. Now, its a freaking MIRACLE I've made it this far and I am SO proud of myself for attempting this (and likely finishing). However, I know the last chapter I recently finished was a bit rushed (I smashed together two chapters from my outline because they were just so short and my brain just wasn't elaborating on the plot anymore). I just know someone is going to say "great story but I feel it was a bit rushed in places" because it's a comment I've gotten even here and it really hurt (especially to someone with attention span and exhaustion issues).

    It's like I know what people are going to criticize about it so it's making me criticize my own work. And that's not okay with me because I write for the fun of it. I tend to stay away from telling stories that require more than like 5k words for a number of reasons and this is one of them.

    I do think its okay not to want criticism. Not everyone is out to become a better writer. Would you criticize knitter who just knits to keep their hands and brain occupied while watching TV? No. Why should fanfic be any different (and even when it does come to people who want to improve through concrit... some people just suck at giving it).
     
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2022
  13. Briannakin

    Briannakin Former Manager star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Feb 25, 2010
    Kinda going off the above discussion, does anyone get ‘performance anxiety’ or like imposter syndrome when it comes to writing/finishing fics that get high praise? Like I’m not trying to brag but people have been really enjoying this long fic I’m writing and I’m really happy because I’ve put a lot of heart into writing this. But I’m at the last chapter and I just don’t want to start writing it because I feel like I’ll let people down? Idk. I just feel like I’m not going to be able to “stick the landing”. I love a good ending but for reasons above, I tend to suck at writing endings. I know what is going to happen (though maybe I need to sit down with a physical piece of paper and do a detailed outline), I just can’t put the pretty prose to the ideas.

    It’s a pretty serious climax (the POV character gets pretty ill but doesn’t die) and I really wanted to sit down to write it this weekend, but I’ve just been in a mood to write silly, goofy stuff (which is what I’ve been doing). I know better than to force myself into a mood I just don’t want to write, but I do want to get it done.

    I think I will (eventually) listen to some sad music, watch something sappy and reread the fic so far, which will help, but I just don’t want to yet.

    I also haven’t written a ending for a longfic in many years so I think I’m just kinda freaking out.
     
  14. pronker

    pronker Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 28, 2007
    I think you're on the right track here. Music reaches a different part of our brain and perhaps touches the soul to make us more expressive. You'll stick this landing!
     
  15. devilinthedetails

    devilinthedetails Fiendish Fanfic & SWTV Manager, Interim Tech Admin star 6 Staff Member Administrator

    Registered:
    Jun 19, 2019
    Thank you so much for the kind words of support, everyone[:D]Everybody's comments made me feel a lot better and less alone. I think that can be one of the hard things about criticism, especially about unlooked for and unexpected criticism, is that it's easy to feel so alone when receiving it. Since getting that bit of "tough to swallow" feedback, I got some supportive comments from other readers, which was a big confidence boost and helped give me the motivation to continue with the next chapter in the story. I think am just going to try to keep in mind that this story does have its audience of readers who appreciate what I am doing (or trying to do) and that I should keep the story going and alive for them as well as for myself, and not let the lone critic stop me from writing because then the lone critic wins, and I lose and so do the readers who want to follow my story and discover where it goes next.

    Ah, yes, performance anxiety is one of the many forms of anxiety that I can relate to having (I am just a bundle of anxiety and nerves all the time, so it is fun to be me:p) and I am sorry to hear that you are experiencing it too. I think performance anxiety is one of the reasons I might have moved toward writing more one shots rather than multi-chapter stories because with one shots, the story is over and done with so any praise the story gets feels permanent and set in stone. Whereas with a multi-chapter story, when I get praise, I am happy that people are enjoying the story, but there is also that little bit of self-generated pressure when I want to keep writing an awesome story enjoyable for everyone and not disappoint anyone. And then there is the added fact that my muse is kind of a flighty creature flitting from inspiration to inspiration and project to project so that I know there is a real chance of me abandoning or neglecting the multi-chapter story if my muse gets distracted my another pretty butterfly inspiration/project. At which point, I will have to inevitably wrestle with some guilt for abandoning and neglecting the multi-chapter story and whatever faithful readership it may have accumulated.

    I also can relate to that feeling of worrying about not being able to "stick the landing" of a multi-chapter story. Like you, I really love a good ending. In fact, I often say that I'm willing to overlook and forgive quite a bit in a book or film (etc.) if only it can manage to "stick the landing" as the saying goes. Endings, especially of multi-chapter works, can be tricky for me to write. For me, personally, I think a lot of the difficulty is that I am more of a "discovery" writer than an outliner or planner. With all my stories, I do start with a vision of how the story will come together in the end (what the resolution will be, basically), but during the writing process itself, I often go on what amounts to a journey of discovery that changes things I thought I knew about the story going into it. In my head, I might have imagined that a character would say or do a particular thing, but in the writing, I discover the character actually should say or do something else, and that produces a ripple effect of changes in the story. Or I decide that what I had initially planned to be a minor, almost tangential point merits more exploration or development, and then the story expands in ways I wouldn't have expected at the outset. And the ending of the story will have to be altered to take into account all these changes and developments and expansions. So that it can be true to those changes and developments and expansions. And the longer a work is, the more opportunity that it has to take those unexpected twists and turns, and so the more complicated the ending can become. The more it can diverge from whatever I had initially envisioned it to be.

    It does sound like you have the ending that you want to write planned out, though, so that makes you "ahead of the game" in that way.

    You are definitely not alone with performance anxiety or ending struggles, my friend. Big hugs, and I know that the ending will be amazing and powerful when you do have the time and the mood to be able to write it (because it is always impressive to me when people finish a multi-chapter fic, a true testament to their dedication and determination as writers that should be celebrated and respected). [:D]
     
  16. Briannakin

    Briannakin Former Manager star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Feb 25, 2010
    I just wanted to share this somewhere. I finished my first "long fic" in 8(ish?) years!!! (not counting vignette series or diaries which mine lean towards really fractured plots), AND honestly about a year of fairly lacklustre writing. The story ended up being just over 25k (which I know to some is nothing but for me, that's n epic).

    Physically, my body isn't cooperative. But my decision to buy a tablet has really helped with my creative outlet. Mentally - also uncooperative and I have a brain definitely more suited for shorter works - but I found a fandom that reinvigorated my muse. But yeah. I just feel so proud of myself.

    But lets just say, I think I'm going to enjoy going back letting my muse run free with vignettes and short stories for a bit! However, with the right idea and preparation, I think I wont be so afraid of long fics! (though limiting it to like 20k)
     
  17. brodiew

    brodiew Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Oct 11, 2005
    @devilinthedetails, I'll throw my hat in and say that it really stinks when you get random nastiness in the comments. That one negative can impact so much more heavily than all the positives that went before. Add into it some of the personal things you mentioned above and I imagine it having a somewhat nuclear effect. I saw this on Tumblr today and thought I'd share a link. The author admits to imperfection, but the meaning of our/hers/ your writing can have a much higher impact on readers than the one who decided to be nasty. Check it out.

    I've been there. It is especially hurtful when the negative comment comes on a fic of which you are particularly proud. You do an excellent job. Keep on doing it.
     
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  18. Gabri_Jade

    Gabri_Jade Fanfic Archive Editor Emeritus star 5 VIP

    Registered:
    Nov 9, 2002
    This Tumblr post seems to pop up every so often, and hoo boy, do I have some thoughts on it. Let me start with: if this post is encouraging to you, then by all means, hold it close. The world is hard and encouragement is a necessity and if this is what does it, then tattoo those words on your heart.

    But I also know that part of the sentiment of this post bothers some people deeply, because, well *raises hand*, so for anyone who feels similarly, let me address a little bit of this in a different way.

    First of all, though: unsolicited criticism, constructive or otherwise, is rude, full stop. There are roles in life where you need to offer constructive criticism and guidance (parent, teacher, manager, editor, etc), and even in those cases, it needs to be handled carefully and kindly. But if you're not in that role, and no one asked your opinion, and your opinion is negative? It's rude to speak up; keep it to yourself. Don't tell someone you don't like their story, or their outfit, or their haircut, or how they're raising their kid, or anything else. It's rude, and it only drags someone down. So when we get rude comments and they hurt - because they do, and for the pros too, never tell yourself otherwise - try to remember that it's the commenter who's at fault for being unkind and impolite. We do not need to be perfect writers or perfect people to expect basic courtesy from others.

    However, it's neither impossible nor undesirable to be a good writer. It's just not. When you work hard to improve, to be told that all of that time and effort was for naught, and that even your goal was always an unreachable illusion that you shouldn't even want in the first place? That's not encouraging. Additionally: "good" does not mean "approved of." It simply doesn't. Merriam-Webster lists thirty-three different potential definitions of "good," and not one of them is "approved of."

    Now, look, as has been pointed out, for us amateurs, this is a hobby. We don't have to get a publisher's approval, we don't have to be marketable, we don't even have to get a good grade. We can write whatever we want, and put as much or as little effort into it as we please, and that is glorious. I've written stories where I've agonized over getting every detail right, and I've dashed off quick short crack fics just because they made me laugh. There's room for all of that, and that freedom is one of the best reasons to write fanfic. But that freedom includes being able to work hard at improving your craft, if you so choose. Just as when I learned to knit, I didn't stop at learning knit and purl stitches but made the effort to learn increases and decreases and short rows and cables and intarsia and all sorts of other techniques, in my writing I'm always trying to do better than I did the last time.

    This Tumblr post makes a very good point - a crucial point - that I'll get to in a minute, but it also declares that no, no one is a good writer, no one can be a good writer, why would anyone want to be a good writer, essentially because a random rude troll said as much. Why does that random rude troll get to define the value of anyone or anything, let alone define the entire concept of an incredibly broad concept such as "good"? My take on it: they don't. The original poster got a rude comment. It does not follow that the rude comment was correct, and that the original poster or their story wasn't good. And to go further and say essentially that to be a good writer means you can't be "heartfelt, sad, funny, inspiring, romantic" - I just can't get behind that.

    I consider it more accurate to say: you don't have to be perfect to be any of those things. We can all improve, in pretty much any subject, for pretty much our whole lives. That's not a bad thing, and it doesn't devalue our imperfect efforts and contributions. We can be varying levels of good throughout our lives and still always be worthwhile and positively impact others.

    Which leads directly into what this post does right: you never know what the impact of your work on someone else will be. I can name fanfic stories that I have deeply loved for twenty years, that I reread regularly and still draw on for inspiration in my own work. They are not perfect stories. In fact, if I was beta reading them, I'd red-pen them all over the place. They have plenty of flaws, from minor right on up to my completely disagreeing with the ultimate conclusion of one of them. It doesn't make that story any less dear to me. Are they good stories, despite being flawed? YES, THEY ARE. Because they resonated with at least one reader in such a way that they're still beloved decades later. They are good stories, and the writers are good writers, and they made an impact and touched someone's heart and inspired creativity.

    Similarly, a few months ago I reposted my first ever fanfic, itself almost twenty years old, to AO3 (backdated), because the old boards here got truncated in the move and the Archive isn't active anymore and I thought it probably shouldn't be lost entirely. I dithered over that decision for a long time, and came close to not reposting it, because I see so many flaws in that story now. I still see good in it too, don't get me wrong, but oh, the things I'd do differently if I was writing that same story today. But I went ahead and posted it, because a friend who remembered and loved it encouraged me to do so, and I thought about my own imperfect beloved favorites and how crushed I'd be if they suddenly disappeared, and you know what? I got not only some random positive comments, but one from another reader who did remember it from a long time ago and was so happy to see it again, and I am still just so incredibly touched by that. I wrote something that someone remembered and loved for years. It's not a perfect story, it's far from it, but it was the best I could do at the time, and it resonated with at least some readers, therefore it is good. My subsequent fics have improved, because I've worked hard to improve, but they're not perfect either, and that's okay, because I don't have to be perfect to be good, or to matter.

    So I disagree 100% with the "no, we're not good writers, but why would we want to be," but oh, that "never doubt there isn't at least one person out there who needs to read your story"? Truer words were never spoken. Do your best, by all means try to improve, but never hold back from writing something that matters to you, and be brave in sharing it, because yes, someone out there needs to read your story, in your voice, and to that person (maybe many people! We all know that lurkers outnumber commenters in fanfic) your story and your voice will mean so, so much. Never, ever let a random rude troll define your worth or dissuade you from sharing your creativity, no matter how imperfect it might be. Write the best story you can, something that matters to you, and trust that someone out there is going to love it beyond measure, because they will. You don't have to be perfect to be good.
     
  19. amidalachick

    amidalachick Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 3, 2003
    So this is my latest rant/vent post/emotion dump/I don't know what to call it. I'm also aware that this is a very privileged problem to have, in every sense of the word. Don't worry, you will not miss anything by skipping over this entire post!

    Is there a secret to becoming brave about sharing? :p (Also, I'm using this quote as a jumping-off point for the rest of my vent post, not because I expect a reply!).

    I've tossed a couple of fics up onto AO3 anonymously, leaving them there with no notes or apologies or whatever and slinking away again before anyone noticed. Last time I logged in there were some kudos and comments on the fics, and honestly? It scared me. Apparently even when nobody knows it's me, I still can't deal with people seeing my ****** stories.

    Part of me truly does appreciate comments and interaction on my stories. I've gotten comments that I treasure and remember and reread even years later. But part of me feels like I don't deserve it. I don't read and comment on other people's stories as much as I'd like to because of RL reasons, so I feel guilty about that. I feel guilty if I post something without a disclaimer that hey, this is actual trash and you don't want to waste your time with it when there are a million better stories you could be reading. And then I feel even guiltier if someone actually takes time out of their day to leave a comment anyway, because if I don't like the things I write and I don't think they're good, why would anyone else?

    I have written things strictly for myself before. Once I made it 18,000 words (that's huge for me) into a completely silly self-indulgent fic I had no intention of ever sharing before my brain decided that lol, this is stupid and I gave up. The whole point of posting and sharing stories is to let people see them and interact with them. Obviously every time I write something and decide to post it, part of me wants that interaction. But the other part is terrified and full of second-guesses and regrets, and that part is louder, so it usually wins out. I end up deleting things I've posted, or just ignoring them and pretending they don't exist, and feeling guilty and so conflicted about wanting interaction but not wanting it at the same time.

    I also know all of this is tied in to the RL issues that go a lot deeper than fanfic that can't be fixed overnight. So I guess I'm just wondering if there are any quick fixes for this issue in particular. Write things and don't post ever even if I want to? Start small and acknowledge feedback with a simple blanket statement? Just push through the fear and 'fake it til you make it'? Give up and find a new hobby? Go be a hermit on an island and milk sea-cows and daydream the rest of my days away ([face_tee_hee])? I don't know. I guess for now I'll just keep writing when I can and hoping somehow something clicks and I can have fun again.
     
  20. Gabri_Jade

    Gabri_Jade Fanfic Archive Editor Emeritus star 5 VIP

    Registered:
    Nov 9, 2002
    For me, it was practice. I was almost shaking the first time I posted a story; now I'm all lemme at 'em (except for my eternal fear of messing up the technical part of posting. Ask Vi how many times I send her a screenshot before I post to have someone else double check that I'm not about to post my story in Resource or something :p). But different people are - well, different, and may need different solutions.

    [:D] I am perfectly fine posting fanfic these days, but in real life? I hate hate hate being the center of attention in any group for any reason for any period of time. It's not, for me, as serious as the social anxiety some people deal with; I'm just a shy introvert who prefers to observe from the shadows. And that's still enough for me to spend most social interactions with a running commentary in my brain telling me what a fool I'm making of myself and how everyone is probably just trying to be polite to the awkward weirdo. I know that this isn't true overall (pretty sure I make a fool of myself sometimes, but not all the time :p), but that doesn't stop me from thinking it, even in groups of friends that I love and trust. I rather suspect that everyone deals with imposter syndrome in some area of their life.

    I don't have any magic solutions, but I'll repeat what I said earlier: we don't have to be perfect to be good, or worthwhile, or to have a positive impact on someone else.

    If someone comments on a story, it means they liked it. I know that it's hard to overrule the internal voice that tells you that no one will like what you have to offer. Believe me, I know. Besides the shy introvert thing, I dealt with depression for a number of years and I remember that voice very well. One thing that helped me deal with it was seeing someone say very plainly, "depression lies." Sometimes our brains lie to us. Sometimes the chemistry is mixed up, sometimes we're overwhelmed by circumstance (like probably everyone these days, because *gestures vaguely @ world*), maybe it's something else entirely, but any little voice that says we're not worthwhile is lying, and we need to work hard to remember that. Everyone has intrinsic value, and everyone has worthwhile contributions to make, and everyone deserves to feel happy and secure. Everyone. If there's a voice inside your head saying you're the exception to that rule, it's lying. Knowing - and even believing - that doesn't mean you'll always be able to silence it, and that sucks. But it's still lying.

    And there are precious few people who are going to comment positively on a story they didn't like. You're hardly alone in not reading or commenting as much as you'd like. I can't even keep up with the handful of stories I really love in a timely manner, let alone branch out much farther to try to read and comment on more. If someone takes the time out of their day to leave a comment (and they're not a troll), that means they genuinely liked your story, and it meant something to them.

    I'm going to try an illustration that may wander a bit here, bear with me :p I really love art museums. Pre-covid, I tried to visit my local one pretty regularly, even if there wasn't a new exhibition. Some pieces are old friends, and I always go out of my way on a visit to go look at them again. Then there are others that I just - don't get. I try! I stand in front of this piece that someone poured their heart and soul into and that an art museum probably paid a small fortune to acquire, and I just don't get it. I don't understand what I'm supposed to take away from it, I don't understand what the artist was trying to say, sometimes I don't even understand why this specific piece qualifies as art. It just does absolutely nothing for me. But you know what? Once I hit that point, I tell myself, "well, this piece isn't for me, but maybe the next person will love it. Maybe in an hour someone will walk past this piece of art that I personally think is a waste of time, and it will touch something deep inside them and their whole life will be changed." Because different people are touched by different things. Even if you personally don't think a story is worthwhile, even one of your own, I guarantee you that someone else does. Someone else loves it. It is an act not only of bravery to share our art, but of generosity, because someone will love it. Not that I'm advocating that any of us should go to the other end of the spectrum and get all egotistical here :p But seriously, sharing one's artistic output is a gift, and someone will treasure that gift.

    This is so common! There's a dinosaur webcomic I particularly love that features this sentiment regularly (not Dinosaur Comics by Ryan North, though that is also an awesome webcomic; this is dino_comics on Twitter and dinosandcomics on Instagram) - one that I particularly loved was a dinosaur at his therapist's (also a dinosaur :p):

    Therapist: You suffer from social isolation.
    Dinosaur: oh no
    Therapist: it's okay, you just need to talk to more people.
    Dinosaur: OH NO

    Look, people (and apparently dinosaurs) are complicated. We contain multitudes. Sometimes those multitudes are contradictory. It's normal! Kinda sucky at times! But normal.

    I don't think that anyone can really answer this question for anyone else. I wish I could [:D] But you know what? Whatever insecurities you're dealing with, you still ended this post with "I'll just keep writing." I feel like that's your answer right there. Clearly writing is something that's still calling you. So answer the call! My suggestions would be to add "start small" and "fake it 'til you make it", with a heaping dose of "my inner critic is a filthy liar" added to the mix. I believe in you [:D]
     
    Kahara, pronker, Tarsier and 8 others like this.
  21. devilinthedetails

    devilinthedetails Fiendish Fanfic & SWTV Manager, Interim Tech Admin star 6 Staff Member Administrator

    Registered:
    Jun 19, 2019
    [:D] I would definitely say that you deserve all the comments that you treasure, remember, and reread years later. You deserve all the kind and affirming words that are ever said about you and your stories. The people who left those comments were moved by your stories and then were inspired to leave kind words that then touched you. The best sort of chain reaction. The positive impact your stories had on readers and that you as a fanfic author had on your readers is for sure a real thing. You put time and effort and creativity into your stories and so you totally earn any praise your readers give.

    I can absolutely relate to that guilt you describe about not reading and commenting on other people's stories as much as you'd like to for real life reasons. My contributions to the fanfic community tend to be more in terms of writing and running/responding to challenges/events. And even though I really appreciate the wonderful people who take time to leave supportive reviews on my works, I don't find myself giving out as many reviews as I feel I "should" or reading as much of other people's fanfic as I wish I could.

    I try to deal with that guilty feeling I sometimes get by reminding myself that people contribute to the fanfic community in different ways as their times and talents allow. For example, there are plenty of people over at AO3 who have left comments, kudos, and bookmarks for my stories without writing stories of their own, but that makes them no less a part of the fanfic community because they are readers and reviewers but not authors, and I don't think less of them because they read and review but don't write their own stories. So I like to think that other members of the fanfic community aren't keeping a ledger in their heads like, "Oh, that devilinthedetails, she writes lots of fics but she hardly ever gets around to commenting on anyone else's." I hope they are just appreciating and respecting whatever I can contribute.

    Communities are ultimately made up of people with lots of different strengths and weaknesses, and the fanfic community is the same. We all just do the best we can to contribute as positively as we can and hopefully find some shared joy in this hobby and passion of ours. At least that is what I try to tell myself when I start kicking myself with guilt about not being able to reciprocate as much as I would like with reading and reviewing other fanfic. Maybe it will help you feel better too. I hope so!

    I also can relate to having that urge to post an apologetic disclaimer since I do that sometimes especially when I am feeling rusty in my writing (often after a bit of a writing drought when my creative wellspring has run dry, shall we say?) or when I feel like I have spent a lot of time and effort writing a story/chapter and am still not entirely satisfied with it but reached a point where I can't really make it better and it kind of is what it is at that point. But I really do think that we can often be are own harshest critics (I certainly am never so rude to anyone else in real life as I am about myself in my head) and I also think we are often comparing our story with some ideal version that we had of it in our minds and hearts as creators when we were inspired to write it or brainstormed for it (etc), while our readers do not have access to that ideal version and vision we had inside ourselves. They see the final product we publish and can't compare it to some imaginary standard of perfection that we made for ourselves (and that maybe would have been impossible for us to attain) and so they might be more likely to approve of the real, published version they got. They aren't comparing the story to perfection, basically, so they can perhaps more clearly appreciate the story's merits.

    At any rate, one of the nice things I've noticed about being a fanfic author is that readers do seem to be able to love and appreciate stories that I can be more harsh about myself as the writer/creator. Sometimes it also is a case where I've written a story a long time ago and grown as a writer since and mostly have even forgot that it existed since I've moved onto other projects, and then I get some really thoughtful and sweet review from a reader. And it will totally make my day and I'll go back to that story and re-read it. And often shake my head, thinking to myself what a terrible writer I used to be. But somehow that reader still genuinely enjoyed the story enough to leave a review on an old, long-finished fic, and that is amazing and encouraging. So I guess what we might in our harsher, self-critical moments as authors see as "trash" is truly a "treasure" to readers who find something in the story that resonates and connects with them. So maybe we really shouldn't be so harsh about our creations and with ourselves if what we are creating does connect and resonate with others even years after we wrote it? There is apparently something meaningful in what we are writing. Or at least are readers seem to think so. And that is pretty cool even if scary to think about sometimes.

    I can relate to that anxiety around reader interaction with fanfic. Every time I post a story, I get nervous wondering if readers will like it or if they will ignore it or hate it entirely. Personally, I do want a positive response, and no response would still be better than a negative response (a reader/reviewer telling me they hated it or thought it was terrible, etc). So every time I get a notification that someone commented on one of my stories, I go through a little tornado of contradictory emotions. Excited that someone read and reviewed but also nervous that maybe when I read the review in question, it'll be a negative one. Like it is just a kind of "helpless" moment for me because I want to know what they said about my story but I have no control over what they said about it, and that makes me super anxious. Because I guess I am a sensitive control freak, haha.

    I guess I think that when we write stories, we put a lot of ourselves into them, and so when we do share them on the Internet for all to see and read, we are making ourselves vulnerable. Putting our true selves out there in a real way. So of course we are worried about being judged or criticized or having something that we put so much of ourselves into being disliked, hated, or rejected by others. I think that is a natural feeling for us to have as authors and creators.

    I'm like you in that I do want interaction when I post a story. Otherwise, I wouldn't share it online. I do want readers to be able to read and hopefully enjoy my story or find it meaningful or insightful or moving in some other way. I also do welcome positive and thoughtful comments on my fic (which can sometimes even make me consider my works or tendencies as an author in a new light, which is super cool). Bookmarks, kudos, or likes, or recommendations also can make me smile or make my day. That being said, I don't tend to really want negative reviews or even con-crit unless I specifically request it from someone. I am doing this for a hobby, ultimately, and don't really want an in-depth analysis of everything I do wrong. The voice of my inner critic is hard enough to deal with sometimes.

    I also will say that I personally do not try to judge the amount of interaction a fanfic author wants on his/her stories. Plenty of published authors write stories and the main envisioned reaction is that readers will read the story and maybe post reviews to sites like Amazon/Goodreads (where the author isn't generally expected to respond and doesn't have to read the reviews) or to publications if the reader is a journalist or professional critic (and it would be seen as unprofessional for an author to respond to those industry type reviews). I think the way fanfic sites and communities are structured can be both a great gift and challenge in this regard. Most sites with fanfic are structured so that reviews are connected directly to the story in some way and the author often gets quick notifications that a comment/review has been posted, and may even feel a certain social pressure/obligation to respond to the review. All of which is very different than in traditional publishing, where responding to reviews can often be seen as the unprofessional thing to do rather than the courteous thing to do.

    Which is why I've started pushing back against the idea that there is any expectation or burden on fanfic authors to respond to every review they get, because that seems to put more expectation and burden on fanfic authors than on published authors in that regard. I say if the author wants to respond, that is awesome, but if not, that is cool too. The author isn't obligated to respond same as a fanfic reader isn't obligated to review every story he or she reads. I guess this is my rambly way of saying that if a fanfic author only really wants to share their stories but doesn't necessarily want to read or respond to reviews, I think that is absolutely okay and not something to be ashamed of.

    There also might be ways to tinker with preferences on various sites to maybe turn off notifications when comments are posted or to close comments entirely. Like on AO3 I believe there is the option to shut off reviews for particular stories so things like that are a possibility to be considered by authors who might find such measures helpful for managing the degree of interaction on their stories or just even for dealing with what I might call "feedback anxiety." It is good that such customization options are available on the Internet today.

    [:D] I definitely think you should keep writing things if you feel the inspiration to write and get pleasure out of writing. I hope you do keep posting because I know that I and many other readers enjoy and appreciate your work, but I absolutely respect whatever your decision turns out to be regarding whether you want to post or not.

    You could also see if there are ways to post but turn off notifications for comments or close comments entirely if that would be helpful to you. I would say as an author, you are free to acknowledge feedback as you want whether that is with long replies to every comment or a blanket thank you for feedback or no response at all. Whatever works for you as an author and a person in that regard is I think fine. Certainly published authors are under no pressure to reply to every review they get, so you don't have to demand more of yourself than what we expect of a published author.

    I really hope that you don't choose to give up and that you do keep writing. And if you do find a way to keep sharing your writing online I think that would be wonderful, but whatever your decision is, I will respect your choice and you.

    I don't know if I have a quick fix beyond maybe just tinkering around with various fanfic platforms to see if there is a way to control the interaction in a way that suits you as an author and maybe also to just remind yourself that you aren't obligated to respond to comments in a certain way or at all if that creates anxiety, pressure, or any other issues for you.

    Ultimately, this is supposed to be a hobby that brings you joy. People don't have the right to demand that you keep sharing stories or that you respond to every comment you receive or anything like that. So really do whatever you think is best for you at any given moment and know that your judgment of what is best at any given time is allowed to change. So if you want to give up posting fic for a little while and then come back to it there's nothing wrong with that either.

    You have my support whatever you decide. I'm in your corner, my friend.
     
    Kahara, pronker, Tarsier and 7 others like this.
  22. amidalachick

    amidalachick Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 3, 2003
    @devilinthedetails and @Gabri_Jade thank you for those long, thoughtful responses and for all of your support and encouragement! It definitely makes the struggle easier. Thank you again! [:D][:D]
     
  23. earlybird-obi-wan

    earlybird-obi-wan Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Aug 21, 2006
    Kahara, pronker, amidalachick and 3 others like this.
  24. Dark Ferus

    Dark Ferus Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Jul 29, 2016
    Writing my climatic, but not my final, lightsaber duel.

    I’m worried because I have yet to get to the meat of one subplot with major imperialist themes that will mean a battle between the Tatooine citizens and the Tuskens and the Republic, and explore one character’s dynamic with her family.
    I also have not yet introduced the setting where I plan for the final lightsaber duel to take place, and for a major character interaction to occur.
    I’d say I’m about 80-90 minutes of screen time into my Episode IX.


    Agree about @amidalachick ‘s stories, especially Stranger Things
     
  25. amidalachick

    amidalachick Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 3, 2003
    Found a reddit post (can't link here because there's a naughty word in the link title):
    The comments are all so supportive and encouraging too! Idk, it just made me smile. I can't internalize it for myself and my own writing, but it just makes me so happy to see other people still having fun. That's what fanfic and fandom should be! Anyway I just love this and I thought I'd put it here so maybe it'll encourage someone else or at least make someone else smile too.
     
    Last edited: May 13, 2022