BTS The Secret History of Star Wars

I think you're entirely right, Nub--that is, judging by the notes Rinzler quotes, Lucas probably first thought "hey, wouldn't it be weird if Vader and Luke's dad were actually the same guy?" while throwing around ideas for the overall plot of ESB, probably in 1977 or so. He clearly wasn't committed to the idea of Father Vader at that stage, though, because neither his early ESB story synopsis nor Leigh Brackett's first-draft script includes Father Vader as a plot point.

I suspect that it was Lucas' disappointment with Brackett's finished script which persuaded him that Vader needed to become Luke's father. In particular, I suspect he wanted to up the dramatic/emotional stakes, and illustrate exactly why it would be dangerous for Luke to accept Vader's temptations. To improve the film, he needed to make concrete the peril of the dark side, which Brackett's script explained only in the abstract. The "I am your father" revelation, where we see that Vader (whose evil has repeatedly been demonstrated on screen) was once the heroic Jedi knight whom Luke reveres, gave him a way to do that.

Incidentally, this is the same reason why the Han-in-carbonite subplot of ESB replaced the "Han goes off to find his stepfather" subplot of Brackett's version. In the original script, Han was heading into abstract danger by crossing the galaxy to meet his powerful trader-baron father figure; in the final film, he is in concrete danger, frozen in suspended animation and being transported to a crime lord who has a grudge against him. They serve the same dramatic purpose--endangering Han--but one is much more potent than the other.

 

While plausible, such a scenario is unnecessary . And, as far as "judging by the notes Rinzler quotes" - remember, Rinzler also says that these notes are undated , so they could very well be from early '78, as much as late '77.

I agree that the 'drama' factor was a primary motive for the Father Vader subplot (and Rinzler even says as much in similar terms).

 

The various undated notes Rinzler quotes really muddy a few issues, particularly the early 5 episode prequel outline. The way he presents it - quite simply, earlier in the book - one would think GL was roughly planning the entire saga (as opposed to the non-chronological serial model referred to publicly in 1979) before writing ESB, but I don't buy that. I think Rinzler & LFL might be pulling a fast one on us there, I suspect those notes were made by GL later on, after he'd settled on the Father Vader storyline & the idea that the films he was currently making would have episode numbers placing them later in a specific chronological structure.

 

I agree, Darth_Nub.

Lucas did a 'saga-plan' in Dec '75, but that was a three-movie* plan of SW plus two sequels (and maybe ONE prequel episode, if any). And, the fact that Rinzler doesn't mention any of this 'Episode 4 or 5' business in the first book - The Making of Star Wars - tells me that it's because such notions simply didn't exist in '75 or '76 when they were making the first film.

*or, one movie (SW), plus two sequel "books"

 

*Bump*

 

This is the 2nd time you've bumped this thread without adding anything. Please stop.

 

This early three-movie/story plan - call it the OOOT, if you like - is one of the strangest loose ends that seems to exist, because the second chapter actually was made & still exists in print as a part of the EU:

[image=http://img1.fantasticfiction.co.uk/images/n2/n10656.jpg]

Supposedly GL instructed Alan Dean Foster (his ghost writer on the novelisation of Star Wars) to write a story that could feasibly be made as a low-budget film, hence the fog-shrouded planet. What I'd be interested to know is just how much input GL had into this second chapter. zombie suggests in TSHOSW that he did have some, but doesn't elaborate.

I imagine that while Foster would have been putting together his own story, he must have been working from certain information that was provided by GL initially, & would have been instructed not to do certain things, so it seems to be a unique glimpse into the pre-Empire Strikes Back, pre-Saga vision that Lucas had. There's the sexual tension between Luke & Leia (retconned as mere bickering between siblings ), the inclusion of the notorious Kaiburr Crystal from the earlier drafts of The Star Wars, plus a confrontation with Darth Vader himself which results in Vader losing his arm.

Just as Foster's novelisation of SW reveals more than a few tidbits about the larger picture, Splinter appears to be more than just an EU novel. It's the original "Episode II" in 'The Adventures Of Luke Skywalker'.

 

And there's the absence of Han Solo, because Ford didn't have a sequel deal.

I'll never catch up with you guys on all this speculation about what was meant to be the future at what point in time (sorry, I don't mean to be rude), but Splinter Of The Mind's Eye is a great example of how real life works. It wasn't really meant to be the future of the series at any given point. It was designed to be a fall-back solution in case the original film didn't do well enough to warrant more expensive sequels. It was probably a spin-off in Lucas' mind, a spin-off from what he thought he might be able to knock into shape if he scored big with the first one. Planning for contingencies and all that, making the most of whatever happens.

Not really a loose end, just an alternative if Empire could never be.

 

Actually, it was designed as the most probable continuation of the SW. Lucas never thought that the original movie would do well enough to warrant expensive sequels.

 

There's an aspect of this "OOOT" plan that you guys seem to be missing, though:

It would be the movie SW plus two sequels - either movies OR books. In other words, if SW wasn't successful enough to warrant two more films , Lucas could still have released the two remaining stories as books, in which case budgetary considerations would have mattered little.

If you read the story/'saga' discussion Lucas had with Kurtz, Foster, and J. Dykstra (?) circa Dec '75, as annotated in the TMOSW book, you'll see that the continuing story superficially resembles that of ESB/ROTJ...ie Luke gets Jedi training (albeit solely under Obi-Wan) and ultimately becomes a Jedi, and the Rebels finally defeat the Empire in "book three".

 

Most probable, maybe. But definitely not what Lucas really intended his series to be. It was a "if this happens, then that" kind of design, to milk whatever possible out of it if the film didn't hit big. An alternative if the preferred plan didn't pan out.

 

I don't have the full HC version of Rinzler's TMOSW, so don't have the full interview, but looking at this part (quoted on zombie's site), I see what you mean:

I'd completely forgotten that he mentioned the idea of a prequel as well as his OOO trilogy.

Just how Splinter Of The Mind's Eye relates to this 1975 vision is a bit muddy. It's not quite the 'second book' GL seems to be talking about - for a start, Han's not in it, so can't leave at the end, plus we don't learn who Vader 'really is' (meaning the murderer of Luke's father - at this point it wasn't going to be mentioned in SW). You could hardly describe the swampbound story as 'Gone With the Wind in Outer Space' on any level, either.

The most telling change on just where Splinter fits in - Harrison Ford wasn't contracted for a sequel, so Han doesn't appear. This seems to suggest that GL did want to make another SW film, even a low budget one. If it was only ever going to be just a book, yes, it wouldn't have mattered who or what appeared in it.

In that sense, I'd place it somewhere in between the 1975 'three book' vision and the 12-part/indefinite serial structure that was announced following the release of SW in 1977. I've heard the 'Planet Of The Apes' sequels mentioned as an analogy.

There's a number of elements connected to earlier drafts of SW, the Kaiburr Crystal being the main one, also a few hints of things to come - swamp planet, Vader killing an officer, Luke/Vader duel and so on. It's still not even a prototype of ESB, however, so yeah, it's more a low-budget alternative to grander visions GL had had earlier.

 

I agree that it was a 'low-budget' alternative to grander SW sequels.....but, imo I don't think it relates at all or fits in with his late 1975 saga/vision (to answer your point at the very top).

His late '75 vision for "book two" actually brings me to his later TESB treatment/story meetings with Leigh Brackett, and ultimately Brackett's first draft of the script. I would say that Brackett and Lucas (at the time) were superficially adhering to that earlier iteration of the post-Star Wars stories: Han 'leaving' at the end (he goes to look for his old 'mentor' in order to bring him to the Rebel's side), and finding out 'who' Vader 'really is' (or 'what' he is, as he himself puts it later on when developing the sequel story in late '77/early '78, as this has become a mostly psychological character study of Vader, since the first film ended up having revealed him to have been the killer of Luke's father).

 

^^^
Right. Attempting to match Splinter with 'Book Two' of the 1975 vision was the result of my leaping to an incorrect conclusion, based on two strongly related pieces of information:

- Alan Dean Foster, author of Splinter Of The Mind's Eye, was present at the 1975 discussion where GL outlined his early trilogy (plus potential prequels);
- at this 1975 discussion, it was mentioned that the two sequels would most likely be published as books only - just as Splinter Of The Mind's Eye was. It was also completed before the May 1977 release of Star Wars & its subsequent success.

So, no, the 1978 novel is not the second chapter of the trilogy discussed in 1975, it's the second part of yet another possible direction the SW saga may have taken (low-budget film series). What's fascinating, however, is that it actually was completed, albeit as a book, & as such, exists as a type of relic of the pre-May 1977 Star Wars universe. Certain interviews with Foster indicate that both he & GL hammered out the bare bones of the plot together, unlike the rest of the EU.

 

Yes, the bold part IS important to remember...it brings up another question however:

When did this 'hammering-out' of SOTME take place?

Sometime in '76, after Foster had completed the movie novelization, or

Sometime in '77, preferably right after the movie came out (which is my belief)?

 

I don't know, but I think it would be before the movie's release. Once it was out, and a huge hit, it was obvious that Lucas wasn't gonna have to go the alternative low-budget route with the sequel.

 

You're probably right.

 

According to a 2002 interview, Foster claims that Splinter was written & completed before the release of SW in 1977. He probably did it roughly back to back with the novelisation of SW.

As far as him & GL working together on it, I think it was mostly just Lucas walking him through all his early drafts & notes (which had happened anyway), hence the inclusion of the Kiber Crystal and the recruiting of the native populace to fight off the Empire.

However, as zombie has pointed out in TSHOSW, there's also a few elements that foreshadow ESB & even ROTJ:
- swamp planet;
- Vader is given more power & kills an Imperial officer for his failures;
- Luke must confront a spirit in a dark tunnel;
- duel between Luke & Vader, during which Vader overwhelms Luke by hurling stones at him with the Force;
- a character has his arm cut off, which is re-constructed later;
- Vader hurls an energy bolt from his hands.

Clearly, Foster wasn't just looking at the official drafts of SW, all of these familiar scenarios couldn't have been coincidence.

 

When did that happen in SOTME?

 

That answers the question.

 

That's probably not the best description, but in Chapter 9, Luke & Leia go down a tunnel lit by phosphorescent growths & find an underground lake. While rowing across they're confronted by a 'lake-spirit', which Luke kills with his lightsaber.

It's not exactly the same as Luke's experience in the cave on Dagobah, but it's very reminiscent of it in the way the environment is described, even more so after having read the early development of Dagobah in Rinzler's Making Of ESB.

 

One element that "foreshadows" ROTJ is the primitive aliens doing battle against the Imperial stormtroopers.

 

Back to this end of things - I don't believe that this scenario is 'unnecessary', as you put it, if you mean that it doesn't really matter when the Father Vader concept popped into GL's head. From Rinzler's Making of ESB and the 1978 articles that revealed the alternate storyline in the mix while Brackett was doing her draft of ESB, it's apparent that Father Vader didn't occur to GL as a result of the flaws that GL perceived in Brackett's draft - which is what zombie puts forward in TSHOSW. The idea was there earlier, but it wasn't something that Lucas necessarily wanted for the second film, hence why he probably didn't mention it to Brackett in any way. But it was there in his mind.

So, what I'm interested in finding out is what led to the merging of Father Skywalker and Darth Vader. This new evidence indicates that it wasn't simply a case of "too many Jedi" in Brackett's draft. I think it has its roots in:

- the dramatic effect of making the main character's father a dead hero, which was first established in draft 3 of The Star Wars;
- GL's desire to include the hero's actual father, not just a father-figure, which he eliminated in Draft 3;
- establishing that Darth Vader was the murderer of Luke's father;
- too many Jedi at the Battle Of Condawn, which is where Vader originally killed Luke's father & dueled Obi-Wan Kenobi on the lip of a volcano.

It's a step-by-step illustration of what was going on in the back of George Lucas' mind, IMHO. By Draft 3 of The Star Wars, GL realised that it was far more effective to include the hero's father as a memory & an ideal, rather than an actual character. However, given the own issues he had with his own father, the character kept pushing its own way back into the story, hence making the existing villain his murderer.
When it came time to figure out just what went on with Darth Vader, Obi-Wan Kenobi & Annikin Skywalker, GL came up with the volcano duel which rendered Vader a crippled monster in an iron lung, which included Annikin being killed by Vader - prompted by the breathing effect developed in post-production of SW, as well as Vader's outfit. It's this scenario which, I believe, Lucas thought had too many characters involved, not Luke's Jedi training on Dagobah. The next step really wouldn't have required all that much inspiration at all.

 

Just popping in to say ta-ta.

Sorry to go off-topic, but this seemed like the most appropriate thread in Saga for this.

It's been fun, gang, but I think I've spent enough time clarifying what works and what doesn't work in this franchise.

tl;dr version of the last decade:

Star Wars: From the Adventures of Luke Skywalker

The End.

 

I mean it in the sense that it's unfalsifiable , strictly speaking.

There's a dispute about exactly when those 1978 articles were actually published....as for Rinzler's book, rembember, as I pointed out, many of those notes are undated.

Setting aside for a moment whether the idea first came about in '77 or '78, if you look at the above scenario in bold closer, it doesn't really wash. First, for it to work, one would have to assume that Brackett came up with the Father Skywalker ghost on her own. Rinzler's book puts that notion to rest. So, if Lucas was really considering the Father Vader idea, but only for the third film, why would he put something in the second film which would so thoroughly contradict* it - Luke's dad as a ghost?

*and let's face it, a ghost interacting with other characters in a script/movie can't be waved-away with "Obi-Wan/Vader lied!"

While I find that more plausible than the 'Dagobah crisis', it still doesn't mean that Lucas had definitively opted for Vader-as-father prior to Brackett being hired. At best , it would only mean that he had the notion post-release of SW but before he had hired Brackett, as the volcano duel storyline doesn't appear until the summer of '77, after the movie was out. It certainly wouldn't allow for Vader-as-father to be part of the mix in '75 or '76, while SW was being made, which Lucas still maintains.

Edit to add:

Another thing from Rinzler's MOTESB:

"A key element that Lucas often revisited during the conference was the identity of Luke's father, which changed as the plot developed and the needs of the story