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Lit Books The Secrets of the Sith

Discussion in 'Literature' started by Jid123Sheeve, Feb 18, 2021.

  1. SyndicThrass

    SyndicThrass Jedi Master star 4

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    Sep 25, 2016
    You can have be completely evil characters and it can work, but you have to make said characters have really mesmerising personalities to offset their lack of depth. Anime often does this well I think (which I think bodes well for Visions).
     
  2. Jid123Sheeve

    Jid123Sheeve Force Ghost star 6

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    Jul 9, 2016
    Probably why Emperor Valkorian doesn’t work for me or as I call him Palpatine but boring and very OP
     
    FS26 likes this.
  3. SyndicThrass

    SyndicThrass Jedi Master star 4

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    Sep 25, 2016
    Palpatine’s gone that way for me. He’s never been as colourful and fun as he was in Revenge of the Sith, which I think in-universe was him at his peak.

    That whole movie was Palpatine in a state of pure euphoria that hasn’t been matched before or since.
     
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  4. VexedAtVohai

    VexedAtVohai Jedi Master star 4

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    Jul 4, 2020
    It can make for a very entertaining watch when the villain (and seemingly the actor) is having fun.
     
  5. Jid123Sheeve

    Jid123Sheeve Force Ghost star 6

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    Jul 9, 2016
    I can’t agree with that but that’s personal taste

    I do see a point that recent Star Wars has tapped more into Sidious Evil Wizard side

    (much like my favorite story dark empire)

    but I would argue Star Wars has upped its fantasy aspects more in recent years
     
  6. SyndicThrass

    SyndicThrass Jedi Master star 4

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    Sep 25, 2016
    it’s less that they’ve made him more of an evil wizard, and more that they’ve made him an omnipresent power.

    He’s the Crimson King in canon.
     
  7. Jid123Sheeve

    Jid123Sheeve Force Ghost star 6

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    Jul 9, 2016
    well I guess then that’s just when subjective personal taste kicks in
     
  8. SyndicThrass

    SyndicThrass Jedi Master star 4

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    Sep 25, 2016
    I think “external evil” figures like Sauron, the Crimson King, Cthulhu, One Below All etc can all work. But they are very distinct and different than characters who are evil.

    Within Star Wars Marchion Ro is a completely evil scumbag who has no redeemable qualities. Ditto for someone like Sauron. But he’s distinct from Sauron, in that he has wants and needs. Marchion has a journey he goes on as a character. Because he is a character, whereas Sauron, conversely, isn’t so much of a character as he is an obstacle for the protagonists to overcome.

    Palpatine starts off like Marchion Ro, but then he stops being a traditional character once he becomes emperor. His personal journey is complete. He then transitions into being a power, or a force of nature. Which is fine, he serves his role as that source of evil that needs to be overcome and fascilitates Anakin and Luke’s arcs. It’s a fine storytelling function, but not one that should be used for every Sith character or every villain within Star Wars.
     
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  9. Jid123Sheeve

    Jid123Sheeve Force Ghost star 6

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    Jul 9, 2016
    Fair enough

    Although I myself am not necessarily opposed to a Sith version of Morgoth among other Sith Lords if they're looking for a new overacting villain for a new era.

    Feel like Tor Valum from the DOTF script was almost that

    Hmm...[face_thinking][face_thinking]
     
  10. SyndicThrass

    SyndicThrass Jedi Master star 4

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    Sep 25, 2016
    I think you can have a “Morgoth” type as well, but I think you keep them few and far between.
     
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  11. Dawud786

    Dawud786 Force Ghost star 5

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    Dec 28, 2006
    I personally really enjoyed Sidious in TROS. He's at near ROTS levels of basking in his own depravity and I love it.

    Same with that episode of Clone Wars where he lays the smack down on Maul and Savage.

    Sent from my SM-G973U using Tapatalk
     
  12. Jid123Sheeve

    Jid123Sheeve Force Ghost star 6

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    Jul 9, 2016
    Same I especially love Sidious in TROS for I feel his decayed form is a continuation of his arc of being less and less human and more just dark side embodied
     
  13. cthugha

    cthugha Jedi Master star 4

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    Sep 24, 2010
    Don't. Jinx. It.

    I'm still not over the "tragic lover Sheev" rumors from Underworld. At this point I wouldn't be surprised if we got Palpatine's Mom getting killed by a pack of feral Midichlorians at some point...
     
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  14. Jid123Sheeve

    Jid123Sheeve Force Ghost star 6

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    Jul 9, 2016
    You know so far in terms of Sith of NuCanon while limited i wouldn't say have been that nuanced.

    Guess closet is Momin but that's because he's got the whole crazed artist kinda thing going for him.
     
  15. Sable_Hart

    Sable_Hart Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Nov 28, 2009
    RE: Star Wars villains & Sheev

    Yes, Sheev was, is, and always should be the exception to the rule.

    Vader, Tyranus, and Maul all work better because there's varying levels of nuance to them. Ditto Ventress, Opress, Grievous, Talzin, Viszla, etc. Even the Son and Abeloth, who are canon and Legends' respective attempts at eldritch dark side manifestations are amusingly more "human" and sympathetic than Darth Sidious. Likewise, even Bargain Bin Sidious aka Tenebrae/Vitiate/Valkorion aka Failkorion from the SWTOR MMO was fleshed out in the subsequent expansions and revealed to have fostered a family that he once genuinely loved.

    Sidious works best as a grandiose malignant narcissist. He's a flat, one-dimensional character whose entertainment value comes from how he does his evil... not why. He's a character who prioritizes style over substance and is the rare case where that's not only OK, it's eminently preferable to the alternative. This is partly why I'm so disdainful of James Luceno's schizophrenic attempt to seemingly humanize Sheev in Darth Plagueis and why I'm glad that interpretation is an outlier largely abandoned by previous and subsequent works.

    The best-written Sith viewpoint character imo is Sean Stewart's take on Dooku in Yoda: Dark Rendezvous. There, Dooku is intriguingly humanized without being whitewashed. He's brilliant, skilled, powerful, well-intentioned, self-aware, thoughtful, anxious, fearful, etc. Possessed of all the strengths and understandable foibles that most people experience in their lives. But then there's also the outright flaws: he's petty, jealous, spiteful, wrathful, manipulative, vindictive. And Stewart packs all of it together in a way that makes Dooku seem very real and very understandable.

    Sidious, on the other hand, is just an ass. He's an internet troll, a gadfly, who happens to have the ability to zap his enemies to death. The Sidious of Yoda: Dark Rendezvous, of Return of the Jedi, of the Rise of Skywalker... that's the real Darth Sidious. The Palpatine of the Phantom Menace, Attack of the Clones, the Clone Wars, and most of Revenge of the Sith is just pure artifice.

    Love it!
     
  16. FS26

    FS26 Jedi Knight star 2

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    Jul 8, 2018
    Could you elaborate? I'm not quite sure what you mean by a "Morgoth"-type, and how it would differ from a "Sauron"-type villain
     
  17. Jid123Sheeve

    Jid123Sheeve Force Ghost star 6

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    Jul 9, 2016
    Morgoth is sorta the OG Dark Lord...Or even Dark God of all....Literal Evil Incarnate and very ancient.

    Not sure if Star Wars could ever go that fantasy but it's possible.
     
  18. FS26

    FS26 Jedi Knight star 2

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    Jul 8, 2018
    Oh, you meant as in a character being the origin of Evil/Darkness in-universe. I thought you meant as a character/personality. Thanks for answering
     
    Last edited: Jul 8, 2021
  19. Sable_Hart

    Sable_Hart Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Nov 28, 2009
    They kinda did already with the Son... and the results left much to be desired IMO.
     
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  20. SyndicThrass

    SyndicThrass Jedi Master star 4

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    Sep 25, 2016
    Well, I suppose there’s not much distinction for me when it comes to Morgoth and Sauron. They fill the same narrative role as this big external evil figure who the protagonists have to overcome.

    Morgoth was basically just Sauron before Sauron with some creationism elements added in.
     
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  21. Ghost

    Ghost Chosen One star 7

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    Oct 13, 2003
    Luceno's novel "Darth Plagueis" covered young Palpatine well.

    Those chapters of how he was an angel and how he slowly fell from grace, the beginning of the Silmarillion is basically a detailed psychological profile and origin story for him.


    Their motivations are very different though. We know how Melkor fell. And while Sauron's fall is covered more in other supplemental materials beyond the Silmarillion, we also know he had a very different and distinct fall, with Tolkien clearly talking about their different motivations. Sauron was still deferential to a higher power, and originally wanted to bring better order, coordination, and logistics, to make good things happen faster. He saw Melkor's way as how he could help achieve a paradise in Middle Earth after the Valar abandoned it. Melkor was more focused on all of creation and wishing to create, while Sauron was more focused specifically on the people and influencing them (think how Melkor poured his essence in the universe itself to dominate it, while Sauron poured his essence into some rings to subtly and slowly influence the leaders).
     
    Last edited: Jul 8, 2021
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  22. darklordoftech

    darklordoftech Force Ghost star 6

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    Sep 30, 2012
    I don’t recall Darth Plagueis humanizing Sheev.
     
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  23. Vialco

    Vialco Force Ghost star 5

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    Mar 6, 2007
    Greetings, @Sable_Hart

    While I share your appreciation of Palpatine as a villain, I have to partially disagree with you. Like all good characters, Sidious is multi-dimensional. I view the character’s various portrayals in different works as multiple facets of a single, inky black gem.

    Personally, I love the origin story that James Luceno gave Palpatine in Darth Plagueis. Nobody is born evil, not really. Palpatine was touched by the Dark Side of the Force, but even that could have been overcome to some degree by the love of a good family and a good upbringing. Just as a good upbringing and a mother’s love wasn’t enough to keep the child Anakin Skywalker from growing up to become a monster.

    Palpatine’s power was unlimited and his malice and hunger for power was unsurpassed. He had nothing but contempt for his father, disdain for his siblings and sliver of pity for his mother. He spent his childhood and adolescence as a rebellious boy, enjoying the vicious thrills of life with no regard for the lives of the innocent. He already had a deep thirst for power when he met Hego Damask, and left alone, he would have discovered some measure of control over his nascent power, pursued power and rule as far as he could.

    But it was the intervention of the Sith, the introduction to their philosophy and powers that led young Sheev Palpatine to become a soulless monster who terrorized and oppressed the entire Galaxy.

    Sheev Palpatine would always have discovered the Dark Side of the Force and would have engaged in some kind of evil as that power always leans towards anger and hatred and pursuit of power. But, without the abuse of Cosinga and the dark teachings of Plagueis, Darth Sidious might never have come to be.

    It’s vital that we see that aspect of Palpatine, that he had a chance to be a good person and he didn’t take it. That moment on the family yacht, where Sidious finally opens himself to the Dark Side at last and becomes a dark storm, giving into the rage he’s always felt inside him and slaughtering his entire family. That moment would no doubt have happened even without Plagueis’s sinister whisperings.

    But it’s what happens afterwards that’s so key. Plagueis victimizes that confused young murderer, cementing his fall to the Dark Side and his dark path. On some level, Palpatine knows that he wouldn’t be the monster he’s become without Plagueis. But his greed and lust for power, his absolute desire to dominate and rule is all-consuming.

    Sheev Palpatine wanted to rule from a very young age. He saw himself as superior and mighty and even without the Force, he would have found a way to harm the Galaxy and indulge his self-aggrandizement.

    But it’s the power of the Force and the teachings of the Sith that led him to the path of galactic dominion. It’s very important to see this, as it shows us that the real cancer corrupting the Galaxy is the Sith. The Sith and their teachings are the cancer in the Force, the corrupting teachings and philosophies that lead Force-wielders to evil.

    That’s the fundamental message of the ancient conflict between the Jedi and the Sith.

    It’s why so many Sith can’t turn away from the dark path.

    Sidious, Maul, Tyranus

    The one way to escape the darkness, to turn away from the shadows and return to the light is through love. To reject greed and selfishness and embrace the selflessness that is the best part of love. Love is the strongest emotion sentient beings can feel and it is love that saves Ventress, Anakin, and Ben.

    Sidious being one-dimensional and completely beyond saving is ultimately an unsatisfying concept-for me. By the time we see him in the Saga, Palpatine is behind saving. But there was a time that he wasn’t, there was a time when there was a chance for him to just be a normal decent man and not a galaxy-conquering psychopath.
     
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  24. Ghost

    Ghost Chosen One star 7

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    Oct 13, 2003
    Yeah… it made Palpatine seem more like the Antichrist kid in The Omen.
     
  25. Sable_Hart

    Sable_Hart Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Nov 28, 2009
    In Darth Plagueis, young!Palpatine seems to have a genuine attachment to Plagueis/Damask; he shows signs of daddy issues regarding Cosinga's scrutiny and detachment; he has an attachment to Vidar Kim and is reluctant to have him killed for this very reason; and Plagueis observes a filial attachment from Sidious to Maul.

    All very human to me and none of these make Sheev a better character imo.