The Seedy Side: A characterization thread and index for the SW underworld - MOVED December 27, 2005

This is a little belated, but welcome to the Seedy Side, Splendorion. You definitely make some good points. I think you'll like it here just fine.

As to the topic, I've done some reflection on the topic myself, and I think there are a couple things that cause groups like that to get stuck in underworld roles. For one thing, it's partly just laziness on our parts. Whenever I want a stock nameless thug, I have to fight the urge to just make him another Gran or Rodian.

The other problem is that it still has to be Star Wars. When I was coming up with a crime lord for my work-in-progress Penance, I debated for a while what species they might be. Ultimately, I chose the Hutts. I know we've seen many Hutts in that kind of role before, but, well, they're there. We always need something to anchor fanfic to its source material, especially us OC writers. What we can do if we do cast a species in one of their typical roles, is tweak them or the way they go about their business just enough to give them a feel that isn't "just another crime boss" or what have you.

This may be on more of a meta level than the question really asked, but it's what was on my mind.

Edit: Hey, replies just hit triple digits! Awesome.

 

SpeldoriontheBlended, I must echo Forcefire and say Welcome To The Seedy Side?. Excellent points on the general concept of the GFFA?s underworld. I?m not terribly familiar with the other two, but Jacob Nive?s Survivors are a very good example. They were all different levels of gray, representing the melting pot that the shadows encourage. They don?t fit in with one camp or the other so everything in between falls through the Dark-Light schism (well it?s more than a crack).

Forcefire: Yes, generic thugs do get the most typecasting. I?ve assembled a list of all the GFFA species I could find and now when I need a character, I go to it instead of my memory. I?ve found that it diversifies things. If you want, I could PM it to you. Or anybody else who?s interested. I don?t pretend it?s complete, but it helps. Be aware, though, that some are extinct in certain eras (Sith) ? or practically (Camaasi).

And it is the Star Wars style to do that to species. Star Wars is, obviously, a movie series first and foremost. Thus, there are simple visual clues so the audience will know immediately what a character?s like. Examples: Red for Sith, blue and green for Jedi, purple for Samuel L. Jackson. Eww, a big fat slug: he?s a crime lord. If it?s mechanical (battle droids) or armored (stormtroopers), it?s bad. Vader hits both counts, he is the villain. Good is nature-inspired (Ewok and Gungan tech, Mon Calamari ships). These cinematic clues are then expounded upon by the EU and pretty soon if it?s a Rodian, it?s seedy, and Mandalorians are mercs.

But then again, some SW stuff blurs the lines. The prequel clonetroopers look like stormies, Vader ends up saving the galaxy from Palpatine, Palpatine seems a decent fellow in Episodes I and II, etc. They?re more guidelines, anyway.

That?s the look at it from the technical aspect. The in-universe explanations are where we can justify the stereotypes with rich historical and cultural backgrounds. Species-wide motivation, if you will.

I will.

Anyone else want to tackle the topic? Oh, and while I?m posting, if you have an idea for a suitably seedy subject of discussion, feel free to bring it up once a topic is pretty well covered. Then we can make it all bold and official.

EDIT: Page 5, huzzah![/pirate]

 

*cough* Up. *cough*

Anybody else?

 

I have edited in my new Galaxy Noir story and pulled out The Astoundingly Amazing, One and Only Boushh. I don't want this to be The_Face index. Please PM with any seedy fics you find. And also, don't forget to weigh in with your comments on the current topic, "Never Trust A Hutt."

 

Anybody? No? Well, then does anyone have an idea for a new topic or challenge?

 

Hi, there.

I know, I know - she lives, right? But seriously, I don't know what to say. It was stupid of me to start something I couldn't finish, but then you guys are doing an awesome job of keeping this place going.

I've been gone a really, really long time, and a lot's changed in my life. I don't know how much I'll be around TFN anymore, and I realize I should have told you guys this from the beginning. More than that, I really should have started "The Seedy Side" under a sock, but I guess I just wasn't thinking that far ahead.

Anyway. No time for apologies or excuses. Let's get down to business, shall we?

What I need is a right-hand man/woman. And The_Face, you've definitely proved yourself up to the challenge. PM me if you're down, and we'll discuss the particulars.

Also, I skimmed through the latest posts (heading out for now) and I saw that you guys wanted another topic for discussion. Why don't we discuss this "Order 66" business? Do you suppose any of our favorite bounty hunters/assassins would be eager to cash in on this? Do you think they'd kidnap the few Jedi stragglers and hold them hostage for a hefty bounty?

Discuss at will. I'll catch up.

You're all awesome.

 

*rubs eyes*

Hello there. Fate, it's good to see you again.

You're too kind. I've just been trying my darndest to keep the thread alive. Mixed results. Anyhoo, I'd be glad to continue to help out in any way I can, and am heading off to my PM box, digital pen in electronic hand.

As for your proposed topic, it sounds great. Unfortunately we're not allowed to talk RotS without a disclaimer until the 30th. I'll save my thoughts for then.

 

*raises an eyebrow* "Not allowed"? I can see nothing's changed around here. Oh, well. I wouldn't want to spoil anyone, anyway - not after I fought so hard to keep from being spoiled myself.

Plus, it's fine for our purposes - it'll grant a little extra time to get this place back on track, and hopefully enough time for us both to get on the same wavelength, The_Face. Would you like a title for your sig, or do you care about such things? I'm on my way to reply to your PM, after which I'd better have a look at this Spoiler Policy. I'm thinking we'll just make it a June topic for discussion, though - just to be safe.

 

Like a true seedy sider, I have no need for titles.

...

But I'll take one.

I have replied to your reply to my PM. Convoluted, no?

I understand the spoiler policy, though. I too, managed to remain unspoiled, and it's not easy. We can take pity on those who have been unable to see it. As for the way the boards are run, there seems to be some kind of war going on with a bunch of Rebels and the "government" of the boards, so to speak. I wasn't involved in whatever discussion spawned all the chaos, so I'm just letting it all sort itself out. Seedy-siders don't tend to take sides in such manners, after all.

 

*nods sagely* Aye. No profit in it, and a waste of time, besides.

And very well. *draws cutlass and touches The_Face on both shoulders*

I dub thee... ScarFace, Scourge of the Seedy Side (and first mate, besides). Until I can think of somefing bettah.

Rise, matey. Arrr.

*polishes cutlass and returns it to sheath*

And now to business. *paces*

I've received your reply and shall verily reply to your reply posthaste. Spoiler policy makes perfect sense, and I'll have no mutinies here, even if they do make me laugh in th' evenin'. Aye. No, but we'll be lettin' this foul wind pass o'erhead, as we've matters of our own to tend ta.

Arrr - swash-swash, buckle-buckle. And so forth.

 

Thank you very much. I have updated my sig to provide a link here...

 

Very pretty. I applaud yer initiative, matey. I'll be showing a bit of my own soon, with the first real update this place has seen in far too long.

 

Hi. I?m SeedySider. I?m here because after many, many months, Fate's finally had the bright idea to ask for help. Thus-and-so-ly, here I am. You might also be interested in knowing that Fate has fixed me up so either she or The_Face can post using me, on the off chance she decides to disappear for another six months. Blood grant us escape from such tragedy. But in either case, consider me the official face of the Seedy Side, or TSS, as Fate has recently nicknamed it.

Also, Fate has asked me to take this moment to publicly acknowledge, in order of postage:

Â¥ Forcefire
Â¥ JaersteinCysse
Â¥ PulsarSkate
Â¥ R_Zion
Â¥ Mjsullivan, and
Â¥ SpeldoriontheBlended

- all of whom did an excellent job of keeping this place going, and are to be commended.

But I have been instructed particularly to acknowledge The_Face because, and I quote:


I only just now saw the entire two-pages of effort you basically spearheaded.

I don't know what to say. I'm so grateful. And now I'm going to the update you had the gumption to post, and incorporate those fics into the list as well.

Bravo, matey.


Indeed. Well done, The_Face - there?s a good man.

And now, to business, with a long overdue update. And again, it?s thanks to The_Face, that Fate found it such smooth sailing.

---

[color=teal][u][b]Fifth Update[/b][/u][/color]


Our first two fics mark the debut of the very worthy [b]Apocalyptic_Jawa[/b] , who, much to TSS?s everlasting shame, did not even receive a reply PM after initially contacting our own flighty captain. Fie for shame, milady. Fie for shame. Here are [b]Apocalyptic_Jawa[/b]?s fics then, and long overdue they are.


1. [link=http://boards.theforce.net/The_Saga/b10476/17426120][color=green]Legerdermain[/color][/link]

[u]Timeline[/u]: Between ANH and ESB
[u]Genre[/u]: Action, Vignette
[u]Main Characters[/u]: Taren Vellic and crew
[u]Summary[/u]: A band of thieves work to relieve a museum of its most valuable display.


2. [link=http://boards.theforce.net/The_Saga/b10476/17566796][color=green]The Cloud City Caper[/color][/link]

[u]Timeline[/u]: During ESB
[u]Genre[/u]: Action
[u]Main Characters[/u]: Taren Vellic and crew
[u]Summary[/u]: Taren and crew try to get their ship back as the Empire takes over Cloud City.


Thank you, [b]Apocalyptic_Jawa[/b]. B-) Welcome to the Seedy Side.


***


Next we have the equally worthy [b]R_Zion[/b], who I regret to report was ignored as well. And with two new fics to offer us, no less. Dis[i]grace[/i]ful, [b]Fate[/b]. You ought to be ashamed of yourself. Here, then, are the noble [b]R_Zion[/b]?s fics.


1. [link=http://boards.theforce.net/The_Saga/b10476/17678719/?8][color=green]Tales From The Fringe: Relentless Entanglements[/color][/link]

[u]Timeline[/u]: Between ANH and ESB
[u]Genre[/u]: Action
[u]Main Characters[/u]: Marikk Danar and crew, Mara Jade
[u]Summary[/u]: The Duros Captain Marikk Danar and his crew have found themselves in some hot water before, but that's been nothing compared to the situation they become embroiled in after accidentally picking up a scientist on the run from the Empire.


2. [link=http://boards.theforce.net/The_Saga/b10476/18348671/?0][color=green]Tales From The Fringe: Bittersweet Reunion[/color][/link]

[u]Timeline[/u]: Immediately following Relentless Entanglements
[u]Genre[/u]: Action, Drama, Romance, Humor
[u]Main Characters[/u]: Marikk Danar and crew, Naemi Alto
[u]Summary[/u]: The crew of the Nova Hound arrive on the tropical planet of Vaynai where Captain Marikk runs into an old flame that has a habit of getting both of them in over their heads.


Thank you, [b]R_Zion[/b]. B-) Welcome to the Seedy Side.


***


And last but most assuredly not least, we have four, actually [i]four[/i] new works from [b]The_Face[/b] himself. If anyone ever deserved a custom-made button, it is

 

*does a shifty little dance*

Its back! I wouldn't have belived it if I hadn't seen it with my own eyes!

 

*laughs* Me, neither. And it's all thanks to The_Face and the rest of you guys, so don't think I had anything to do with it.

Good to see you back, PulsarSkate.

And to the rest of you, I'm going away for a few days, but TSS should be okay, what with SeedySider and all. Plus, I've left The_Face in charge, so we shouldn't have any problems. But if we do, PM SeedySider and I'm sure one of us will take care of it.

In the meantime, we're all caught up. So since no one's jumping at the chance to start off our new discussion, I'll do it.

***

A seedy fic, to my mind, can center around any situation in which you, as the reader, aren't quite sure which side to take. These people, these seedy-siders, are not evil, per se; they just abide by a moral code we're not familiar with, nor would likely agree with if we were. They feel themselves beyond the rules, so when we read about them, we feel free.

So to my point of view, any fic that creates that sense of the surreal, like walking into a bar just to take in the atmosphere - any fic that has us almost wanting to look over our shoulder would work. Any fic that paints a world only a few are privy too, where the light and dark intersect, and we're left in the middle of the unnerving gray, is more than welcome here.

So basically, it doesn't necessarily have to be about a bounty hunter. But there is a definite difference between dwelling in the gray because you don't know any better, or because that is the life you feel you were born to live, and deliberately turning to the dark. Even though I'm not much of a Before-the-saga person, what little I know of Xanatos, for instance, would make me disqualify him as a Seedy-Sider.

But that's just me. What do the rest of you think?

 

PulsarSkate, welcome back!

The topic. Well, I?d say that a seedy story is anything falling in the cracks of good and evil. They take place in the gray sea of moral ambiguity where choices rule each individual?s fate. And though they may be occasionally spurred to larger selfless action, individual is often a key word for most seedy-siders. Other times, however, their behavior could be completely out of desperation, doing dark deeds toward a relatively good purpose.

In the uncomfortable environment of the underworld, alliances shift like so much sand. Speaking of which, one never knows what land gives purchase and which gives way. That is the danger of defining a seedy fic: It is, by its nature, an ever-changing subject. The beauty of these characters is that at any time their position on the scale may move them darker or more heroic. They are unpredictable, so we must take a reasonably broad, encompassing definition. Traitors, hired help, noble criminals. All are seedy-siders. Anything which is, as Vader said of Mara Jade, neither light nor dark. It?s in the shadows between, the shades of morality. Neither night nor day. The essence of an underworld tale is twilight.

That?s the elaborate metaphor-laden version of it anyway. Basically, your good guys need sizable bits of not-so-good (or loads of it), and possibly vice-versa. It?s a subjective thing to deal with, really. But that?s the beauty of the underworld. To them, there is no right or wrong.

Of course, they?re full of it, but it?s fun to read about ?em.

 

I really liked your description, The_Face, especially the bit about 'twilight'. For those of us who've read Shatterpoint, do you think those on Haruun Kal would apply here? I'm personally inclined to think that the Dark Force-sensitives would not, but the inner-city beings would.

Why? Maybe because with the Dark Force-users, you're pretty certain that they will always be/think/act the way that they currently are, whereas you get the feeling that the inner-city beings are walking the thin line between good and evil. You get the feeling that they hold their lives in the balance every moment of every day, and that the smallest action could push them over, most likely to the darkness, but in theory, to the light as well. And as long as they continue to vacillate, we are captivated, but once they make their choice and hold firm, they pass out of our sphere of interest. It's the conflict that we crave.

But what do the rest of you think? I'm sure The_Face are more than happy to keep the discussion going if we must, but really, some friendly dissension would be most welcome at this point. If there's anyone out there who, for whatever reason, simply doesn't agree with our seeming consensus, now's the time to say so.

 

I agree that a seedy story is one that follows characters who exist in the in-between-world where pretexts like legality are a bit more malleable than in your typical citizens life.

I would also add that, in most cases, a seedy character's focus is on themselves. They're not in it for your revolution, they expect to be well paid. They're typically not dedicated to a higher ideal, at least not enough so that they wouldn't bend that rule to help themselves out.

Now, this may call to mind the Sith (who "think only of themselves"), but I don't think they count. What the Sith, and most Dark-Siders in general, want, is to impose their will on others. Seedy types don't expect everyone else to follow their rules (though that would sure make it easier or a better work environment sometimes), they're only trying to make their way in the universe.

So, I think that Force users can be gray types, not dedicating themselves to one side or the other, but they are also not likely to be, because of the greater benefits from joining the light (peace, knowledge), or the dark (power, cool lightning). It would take extraordinary circumstances to leave someone on the fence (like Jolee Bindo of the excellent Knights of the Old Republic).

 

It's awesome to see you in here again, ForceFire; The_Face told me how busy you've been, so it's cool of you to take the time to drop in.


I agree that a seedy story is one that follows characters who exist in the in-between-world where pretexts like legality are a bit more malleable than in your typical citizens life.

I liked how you phrased that - "a bit more malleable". Not that they don't exist, just that they're a little more subject to debate.


I would also add that, in most cases, a seedy character's focus is on themselves. They're not in it for your revolution, they expect to be well paid.

*laughs!* Indeed. Case in point are the Fetts, particularly Boba. He saw the Han Solo opportunity and instantly filled in the blanks, deciding to obtain, not one, but two bounties for basically no effort at all.


They're typically not dedicated to a higher ideal, at least not enough so that they wouldn't bend that rule to help themselves out.

I think some of them feel that they are the higher ideal. Or is that the same thing?


Now, this may call to mind the Sith (who "think only of themselves"), but I don't think they count. What the Sith, and most Dark-Siders in general, want, is to impose their will on others. Seedy types don't expect everyone else to follow their rules (though that would sure make it easier or a better work environment sometimes), they're only trying to make their way in the universe.

I think this sums up their attitude to a tee. They'd much rather if more people saw things from their point of view - less messy that way - but it doesn't particularly bother them when they don't, so long as those who disagree with them don't allow their difference of opinion to place them within the seedy sider's sights. Then it becomes a problem.


So, I think that Force users can be gray types, not dedicating themselves to one side or the other, but they are also not likely to be, because of the greater benefits from joining the light (peace, knowledge), or the dark (power, cool lightning). It would take extraordinary circumstances to leave someone on the fence (like Jolee Bindo of the excellent Knights of the Old Republic).

I've never read about Jolee Bindo, but Quinlan Vos comes to mind. It seems to me that living on the fringe between light and dark would be a constant struggle for any Force user, Jedi or Sith. I mean, look what it did to Anakin. But I do think that such a story could fit our definitions, so long as it was more about the environment that creates the conflict within the Force user than about the conflict itself. Of course, as soon as the conflict ended, and the Force user was finally forced to choose, the story would cease to fit here.

I'm not sure how much sense that makes.

 

Faaaaaate!

Look at this. Just as I take the longest absence from the boards EVER, everything starts rolling along at lightspeed in the Seedy Side! Maybe I should take absences more often Anyway, now onto the apologies to you all!

Sorry!

Phew, glad that's out of the way

I see we have adopted a new leader - I will do whatever you ask of me, Seedysider Well, I dont know that saying that sort of thing is very 'seedy side' of me, but "I'll do whatever you ask in exchange for a cut of the profits" just didnt seem like a great way to usher in this new era

It is really great to see the place thriving again though, I must say! The lists have been updated, the discussion is going at full tilt full powered red hot maximum pace...Forcefire is back (HEY forcefire!). I'd like to take this moment to echo Fate and say the following words to Face:

Legend. Deadset Legend.

For keeping the place up and running while nearly all of us seemed to fall off the face of the earth, I offer you my most humble respect And as payment for this, keep an eye out in the GNIII thread for my longest reply yet!

So now, discussions and other comments

Fate:
First of all, welcome back to the boards, though I know i'm a little late in saying that I hope all the changes in your life have been for the better! And that even if you cant be around here as much anymore, you'll still stop in to say hellow from time to time

The Discussion:

Is it too much of a cop out to say "I agree with ya'll"?

In my opinion, a Seedy Side fic can be defined on all sorts of levels. At the most basic level, I think it can be classified as anything to do with an individual in Star Wars that isn't immediately on either side of the prevalent war (Rebellion/Empire - or in light of the PT, Separatist/Republic...or, in light of the NJO, Human/Yuuzhan Vong...my, how convoluted ). So here, we're talking smugglers, pirates, criminals, dodgy-yet-well-funded Hutt organisations...the works. By their nature, I reckon these constitute Seedy Side stories.

But to delve into the grey areas of this ALREADY grey area (we are talking a SERIOUS shade of grey here, people), what happens when there are stories of canon characters partaking of semi-legit activites? Take the Wraith Squadron series for example - Wedge Antilles leads his band of not-so-merry misfits in criminal activities across various planets. Does the mere act of commiting these crimes constitute seedy side-ed-ness (if anyone knows a better way to denote 'of the seedy side', let me know)?

I'd suggest that they dont. I'd suggest that, as Forcefire and Fate have pointed out, that criminal actions taken for the purpose of furthering a cause, be it evil or good, do not constitute what we're talking about. You both summed it up well with this little exchange I feel:


Forcefire: They're typically not dedicated to a higher ideal, at least not enough so that they wouldn't bend that rule to help themselves out.

Fate: I think some of them feel that they are the higher ideal.

Too right they do! I think its this sort of thing that really defines a seedy side fic - people that are in it for themselves. People can be too power hungry to conform to an embattled state, or too scared to. They might think they own the universe and have every right to play two sides of a war against one another for their own personal gain.

But then again, maybe being a seedy sider aint such an evil thing.

Maybe they just dont like the idea of being party to something so destructive and (depending on your point of view) evil. Maybe their loyalties just lie elsewhere - whether that be themselves, their own organisation, or perhaps (an often overlooked option) even the people they love. If you think about it that way, a Seedy Sider could actually be more virtuous than any Rebel because they choose to be loyal to the ones they love, and not the cause beyond them. Anyone that's read a Clip Argentsso

 

Mjs! Welcome back to the Seedy Side!?

Thanks for the kind words.

And as payment for this, keep an eye out in the GNIII thread for my longest reply yet!

I look forward to it. Not sure if you can top the last one?s survey response, but ?twill be great to see either way.

Yeah, seedy things for the greater good (the Robin Hood effect, ya might say) does not necessarily an underworld story make, though it?s already a step closer. Now, if these loyalties begin to shift and the greater good starts to fade away into the gray of the protagonist?s (we can?t very well say hero anymore since that, to me, denotes total dedication to the light) criminal environment, it enters into the center of this thread?s area of interest. For example, an undercover cop might not be a seedy fic. If the cop shares equal focus with the less-scrupulous around him, I think it fits. Even better, if he starts to agree with some of his criminal cohorts and doubts his previous conceptions of right and wrong, things really turn to the seedy side.

That made sense enough to me, especially for 1 in the morning.

 

Fate and Face have come up with a new activity we could do here at the Seedy Side in addition to the challenges (which will return) and discussions, and Face thought this would be a good time to bring it up, as the current topic is cooling down. The idea is this:

Author interviews.

Nothing revolutionary to these boards, but fun and I?m sure we can all work together to give them suitably seedy spins. Simply send a PM to Face, Fate, or me to vote on which author you would like to see interviewed. Neither of them gets a say, and I am but a puppet for their will, so it?s all up to you wonderful rogues. The votes?ll be tallied and th? winner announced. That?s when you, the democracy-loving pirates ye are, can submit questions for them to add to the basic questions I, SeedySider, will already be asking. Ye know them and their stories. This is yer opportunity to answer what burning questions linger still.

That?s it for now, mateys. Send in your vote for what underworld writer ye wish to see interviewed. Savvy?

SeedySider out.

 

Arrrr! That sounds fine with me! Excellent idea!

 

*clears throat*

Hello? I don't know about Fate's PM box, but SeedySider and I have gotten a grand total of one vote thusfar. Is it a matter of interest or simply not seeing the Seedy Side around?

 

Well, one vote is one vote. Try doing the interview...perhaps it'll bring us some more publicity.

*clears throat and begins corny pirate immitation*

Arrr, we scurvy Seedy Siders get no respect. Blimey, if we aren't laserswordin' force users, we don't be cared about. Arrr! Even worse if we be OCs. Aye...the fan fiction forums be a cruel mistress! Arrr!