Senate The Senate is splitting off

Considering that the early mods up until after Kimball were more of a tyrant than any of the later mods I'd say Lowie's been fairly tame as a moderator.

 

ahaha what? Fire_Ice_Death at any point in your rather illustrative personal diatribe there did you address my point that your posting style (which, i, personally, have no problem with whatsoever) is exactly the kind that the senate rule-set tends to exlude and marginalize? how often have you been warned or banned in the senate for posts like the one you just made (posts that, again, i personally think are an entirely valid form of discussion on a star wars message board)

what makes you think having a posting style is a bad thing? everyone has a posting style. just like everyone has an accent. its nothing to be ashamed of, its just the nature of the medium.

 

(This response is more of an address to everyone, not just you)



More people HAVE been posting in the Senate since the move/merge. There used to be 2-3 active threads a week, and maybe only one that was really active at a time.

I remember scrolling through topics on the old Senate forum, and right near the top of page TWO, began a long list of strike-through threads that had been locked due to inactivity. When did threads begins to auto-lock in the Senate in the old boards, after 18 months or something? That would mean we just had a little over a page worth of threads over 18 months. And there were plenty of locked threads and threads that never got more than a few posts on the first page too. This had been the status quo of the Senate since at least 2009, and it gradually deteriorated to that point since 2005.

On the other hand, now, there's even more threads in half the time, and the vast majority of them (69 I'm counting now) were all very active for a period of time, and many keep getting bumped when it's relevant.

Yes, it's not as good as the Senate was in 2002-2005 (there's still sort of an echo-chamber in many threads), but it's better now than it was before the move/merge. There's more people contributing, and more activity overall. It might not seem like that since you see all the other threads with different tags too, but there's an easy solution to this, click the tag "Senate."

Yes, more users have gotten away with posting without really explaining their beliefs or backing up their opinions with evidence when pressed (like in some of the religion threads I started). But for Lowbacca to say in his post "it seems unfair to punish JCC regulars for posting in Senate threads with the same mindset they post in JCC threads" (or something to that effect)... no, it's not unfair! You edit, you warn, you give temporary bans, and no member should be immune. I shouldn't, you shouldn't, Ender Sai shouldn't, Jabba-wocky shouldn't, Rogue_Ten shouldn't, Knight Writer shouldn't, Mr44 shouldn't, Kimball shouldn't, Jabbadabado shouldn't... nobody should be immune to getting edits and warnings. (and honestly, there's been a few people who should have been warned or temp banned but weren't due to prestige or something, both Senate regulars and JCC regulars, even some ex-mods). And if it's JCC regulars, that's how they learn, and if they don't like it then they can leave it. (I wonder if this forum allows temporarily banning someone from a certain tag or board, instead of the entire forums?). And for JCC regulars like anakinfansince1983, that doesn't mean it's not fine to tell jokes in the Senate, it's a community too. At worst, if you haven't already typed up a well-developed post on your thoughts earlier in that thread, a mod might ask you "do you want to explain your position more?" or "why do you think that?" to gently guide it back to discussion. Just more guiding, editing, and warning in the Senate-tagged thread would reset the tone. I have noticed that there hasn't been as much editing and warning and banning now, as opposed to the old boards. And doing this might help people like Fire Ice Death to start posting again. And if they don't... so what? It's their loss. That's their choice. We also didn't lose that many people from the move that didn't already stop posting. (and Fire Ice Death, really, you've been acting more like your stereotypical version of a JCCer).

As for mods getting poked fun at, don't take it too personally, everyone gets poked fun at. If you think it's really over the line, discuss with another mod if they also think it's over the line, and if you agree then edit, warn, and temporary ban. Everyone in the JCC, mods and users, have been made fun of, some light-hearted and some mean-spirited, it's not just you guys. There was something particularly nasty said to me, for an example, that really bothered me but then I just shrugged it off, decided not to take it that serious or personally, and an internet message board shouldn't be able to make anyone feel that bad, you just need to keep it all in perspective. And I have a self-deprecating sense of humor anyways (though this example in particular wasn't funny at all).
Also, most of us are thankful for you guys just being Senate mods, and Lowie, you've done a great job the last half-decade!




Overall, I'm not that strongly for or against this split, but being against the split seems like a much more logical position. I hope that some of the new people who have begun posting in the Senate will visit it. One of the big problems before the movie is that the Senate had become an echo chamber, so I've welcomed the more diverse views, even if I have strongly argued against some of them.

And if this does turn out to not be for the best, then it can always be reversed.

But I don't think anyone should ever expect the Senate to have more than 10 active threads in a week, I don't think that's ever been the case. The current setup just makes that lower activity more apparent, and actually hides the fact that activity has been increasing.

Lastly, from the other side, while I'd rather the Senate be more active, it doesn't have to be that active to exist. There's fan region forums on here that get maybe 10 posts a year. The Senate not having as much activity as the JCC or Amph or Lit or Episode7 doesn't matter. I'd rather have more activity, but I think it's bad for the Senate to expect it to have more than 10 active discussions in a week or so (that's an expectation of 10 as a maximum). Different boards/tags should have different expectations, or else we might as well just have everything on the facebook group.

 

ugh

 

Well, I already put him on ignore. Sooo...there's that. Anyway, If you ask me, the merging of the two areas and the other pieces under the 'Community' label was more of a travesty and ignoring the userbase than re-splitting the Senate is. Mostly as there was very little input from people that were Senate regulars in the original discussion because the temporary boards were such a mess and people saw them as that--temporary. And now the crew here whinging about the Senate breaking off just strikes me as silly.

And they're mostly JCC regulars, so I'm not sure why the Senate should be put under the whims of such people who don't care about what the Senate was originally. To me it just speaks to a level of disrespect for the idea that -gasp- someone may prefer to see something that's not just thread-*****ing and randomness. Again: if it's that much of an offensive idea to you all then don't post.

Show what a failure it is, but to outright dismiss the idea as a failure and as an 'unworkable' thing is just nonsense since it hasn't happened yet. Some things just work better as separate entities than as whole units and people that decry such a thing that absolutely has no affect no affect on them strike me as the same type of cynics that find fault in every single facet of life and maker forbid someone might actually enjoy something harmless that they don't. That's just a terrible idea. They must hate and find everything repulsive that they do--that's where I see most of this hate stemming from.

Edit: yes, I read through the whole temporary discussion. Every page.

 

yeah as everyone knows ive always opposed Teh Anschluß and ive been celebrating this new re-split, but at this point my new position is do whatever it takes to keep this guy posting lmao

 

And nobody should be dismissed just because they were more of a JCC regular, or they were more of a Senate regular. Not all of the old Senate regulars have good points, and not all of the JCC regulars have bad points, or vice versa.


All this talk about the "Senate regulars"... anyone care to make a list, and tally where everyone stands, and who doesn't post anymore? I know the poll wouldn't be binding, but it would be interesting to see the results.

 

Half Asian.

 

No, I'm just going to hang out in the Senate and clip my toenails as I watch the tumbleweeds blow by.

 

Only 4 people want a split. That's not the same thing as tallying the number of people that would tally the consequences of said split if it were to take place.

 

There are no consequences of the split other than the disappointment that is going to be felt by the people who want it once it's proved to be a failure. Again.

 

Here is the list of the "JCC regulars" who have made wonderful contributions to the Senate:

 

2edgy4me

 

Fido, please stop flaming the JCC userbase. It is hurtful and uncalled for.

 

I'm not saying anything about infallibility. I'm saying that the userbase that made the decision originally weren't very fond of the Senate to begin with and as such the choice was erroneously thinking those that agreed to it represeted the people who posted there. You can see this attitude in how people like rogue constantly drug Senate tagged threads off-topic and seemed to have a real grudge against a mod whom he'd never personally dealt with. So yeah, I think bias creeped in on a discussion where there was very little representation of the other side of the argument.

When I brought up these points earlier, Jello's circular argument was, 'It's been done therefore it's done.' Which is great if you're trying not to listen to someone's concerns. And IIRC I did have a few supporters of the separation at that time. So it's not as if there weren't any doubts about what went down and how it was carried out; it was just this typical mindset that the Senate is, oh, that other forum without a lot of thread traffic so it's okay to merge them. But no one considered that the forum worked because it was separate and therefore easier to enforce the rules.

Here with the merged community you either have to listen to five different sets of guidelines, rules and regs or all of the forums that were merged have to start acting like the JCC with a more 'relaxed' feel and with random topics being inserted into threads because, hey, it's what the JCC does. And five different rules for tags in one community is just asinine. Did you really think that one out clearly? Anyway, I'm more concerned with my blagh these days than I am with the whole of the JC, but I do think this merger was a bad idea and destroyed the Senate's identity most of all because it'd become an entirely different culture. Rightly or wrongly, the two boards were too different to be absorbed into the JCC.

 

I just don't think the Senate was ever intended to be "absorbed" into the JCC. There were Senate regulars who contributed to the original discussion on the temp boards, myself included, though that could have been handled better.

And it hasn't been 5 tags with 5 different sets of rules, it's just been the Senate with a different set of rules, the others are just different categories of topics but operating under the same rules (I believe). I think more warnings and edits and temporary bans, especially in the beginning, to establish the expectations should have been done, and still could be done. The Senate mods should have complete domain over Senate threads.

But like I said, I don't care too strongly about this, and I'm starting my full-time job in a few weeks, so I'll be posting less anyways,. I hope the Senate does well with this split. And if it doesn't, it can always be reversed.



The boards probably can't support it, but it would be cool if we could individually create our own customized boards, and choose which tags from which forums we want to see and not see. That would probably satisfy everyone.

 

Both FID and Rogue_Ten have made many valuable contributions to the Senate. At the moment though, FID is discouraged from posting because of the merge, and Rogue often brings a slew of drive-by posters in his wake. This reality is detrimental to the quality of forum, while quality should be its biggest boon. And Rogue and FID are just examples; there are others with Rogue's people power, and there are other people like FID who have posted less since the merge.

From what I've seen in this thread, there are about as many vocal Senate regulars that support the move as there are those that oppose it. Most just shrug, though,

If it fails, then at least we tried.

I don't want to force an opinion out of people. This thread is up for a week; people who care will see it. I imagine that those regulars who haven't posted will have a similar opinion to LOH and Jabbadabbado.

But I have to say that I do find it a real shame that dp4m, epic, and GrandAdmiralJello have declared they don't intend to visit the new Senate.

 

JW- This is a terrible example. You're complaining that a JCC thread followed the typical course of JCC threads?

This is not a terrible example, it's exactly the point. No, I'm not complaining at all. You just illustrated my personal view though. JCC threads follow a typical course. Senate threads follow a typical course. For some reason, there are those who keep getting hung up on one being "better" than the other. They aren't, they're just different. As I've said, the problem with the merge is that while it took care of access (or forum position, if you will), nothing was ever determined on how the forums interact, so in essence, since the JCC is bigger, you have Senate tags that act like JCC tags, but the reverse is not true. In other words, the result is about 95% JCC, and 5% Senate. It most certainly would be like plunking the costuming and props forum down as a tag right in the middle of the JCC. Sure, costuming might enjoy a "bump" in traffic as a result, but it too would become 95% JCC. What happens is that the concentrated "essence of costumes" would become diluted within the JCC pool. Or it's like holding the 3D animation forum to the JCC standard, which doesn't make sense either. For the most part, except for some minor blips regarding cross over, all of the forums positively interact with each other and provide an outlet for those interests they represent.

Another proposal that would take care of this issue would be to increase the standard of the JCC overall, so the mix was closer to 50/50, instead of 95/05, but that's not going to happen. This isn't one group vs the other, and everyone could post in different forums depending on interest or feeling that day, or at least work together to find a solution. So what is the solution for a forum where people want to discuss issues with a more in-depth focus, without having to follow the typical course of JCC threads, which is no different than literally a dozen of different highly focused forums that aren't JCC either?

 

Mike

I love you man. Life-partners?

 

Ender Sai: love u toooo

but i honestly didnt intend for that post to be as controversial as it was received. i thought it was pretty straightforward

SuperWatto i loathe the senate ruleset (not any particular senate mods necessarily, the format and rules themselves) so any "contributions" ive made to the senate are purely incidental. the ruleset intended to stimulate "meaningful debate" in fact proliferates a particular kind of meaningless, overlong nonsense post from dunces who style themselves geniuses, while simultaneously cutting out entirely -- on pain of an edit or a ban -- the voices of many individuals with other --often better-- posting styles. this of course includes those of us who prefer satire, the most effective and appropriate form of commentary for the internet message board environment.

in short, and with all due respect, the senate (as an internet forum, not as individuals) can and should eat **** and die

 

i see what you did there

 

Rogue_Ten: thank you for this valuable contribution! I guess if you feel that way, then maybe I should reconsider.

 

wwwhhhhhhooooOOOOOOSSSSSHHHHHHH

 

Indeed. No matter, I shall carry on with your useful tips!