ST The Sequel Trilogy and Legends EU Parallels

Some of you may remember the Dark Empire comic book series. for those of us in the generation from the original trilogy, it was part of the early expanded universe that constituted the only new material for many years, and it was the second major offering to come along in that period, the first being of course the Thrawn Trilogy. Dark Empire introduced Holocrons, added many details the the Galaxy Far Far Away and also included material about the history of the Jedi Order. Since it centered on the resurrection of Palpatine, it also delved into his character in a way that had not been done before.

It's my decided opninion that Dark Empire is the most influential previous continuation on the sequel trilogy, and one could even consider the ST a cinematic adaptation of it, albeit a very loose one.

SPOILERS for the comic books follow.
Here is a list of similarities and echoes I have noticed between Dark Empire and the ST
1. Resurrection of Palpatine
2. Use of cloning toward that end (mentioned in ROS by a certain resistance hobbit)
3. Palpatine's secret dark side planet redoubt (Byss differs from Exegol, but they are similar concepts)
4. Emperor unleashes a fleet of mass destruction (World Devastators / Final Order fleet)
5. Emperor's preoccupation with "the creation of monsters" (e.g. Snoke)
6. Emperor proposes to transfer his spirit into a "good" character (anakin solo in DE, Rey in ST)
7. Holocrons important (the wayfinders resemble sith holocrons--I thought it was a holocron at first)
8. Planet-killing weapon that can shoot across the galaxy (galaxy gun, Starkiller base)
9. Luke temporarily joins the Dark Side (the first comic series plot; recalls a brief lapse in TLJ)
10. Luke faces off against an AT-AT all on his own (on coruscant in DE, on Crait in TLJ)
11. Luke uses the Force to project his image across the galaxy and fool other characters
12. Luke and Leia join their energy against the Emperor (this is evoked at the end of ROS in two ways)

Dark Empire came before much lore had come out concerning the Dark Lords of the Sith, so some of the Emperor's history was not addressed; as with the Thrawn Trilogy it is implied he got his secrets from the Jedi by deceit or by force. So it is definitely out of date, and it had definite problems but it was really interesting and in some ways it was better than Tim Zahn's work at evoking the spirit of Star Wars.

Has anyone else here read Dark Empire?

Did you see the same parallels?

Did you notice any others?

MOD EDIT:

THREAD MERGE AND TITLE UPDATE.

This thread will now be the catch-all for comparisons between the ST and Legends EU. Since it's apparent there have been more than a few parallels.

 

When astral projection was first realized in TLJ my first thought was Dark Empire but it had also been listed in several EU power books (The Jedi Path & Book of the Sith). Including the one Johnson owns and later shared was his inspiration.

TROS takes it all to a new level though and makes me wonder if perhaps the story group itself had maybe heard some of their ideas and steered things more toward Dark Empire terrain in discussions. Either deliberately or just from having read it and it being influential on them and forming part of their imaginations.

Definitely some good parallels by the end and when you factor in where Ben Solo obviously came from (Jacen) as inspiration as well it’s kind of no wonder that this trilogy won me over as it did. I enjoyed the ideas in both works more than the works themselves and have really come to love the idea of Rey Palpatine growing up in the junk of her grandfather’s former Empire and falling hard for the grandson of Darth Vader.

 

The fact that he cited ancillary material might have been a dodge. TLJ has actually got three (3) moments that strongly evoked DE for me at least. Luke vs the Walkers, force Projection (by the same character no less) and the moment when Leia is looking out of that huge door (this was almost exactly the same as a panel in the comic where she looks out off of a hangar bay that is like an enormous horozontal slit) then let's not forget the moment (however brief) when Luke went dark, as recalled in the flashbacks. Considering Rian Johnson's age, as a fan, I'd be surprise if he didn't read Dark Empire when it came out.

 

Yes!

And JJ and Terrio were quoted way back that they wanted to tie up all 9 films. And there were reports that they would tie into TCW, Rebels, Legends, and the new literature. When interviewed before the release JJ said what amazed him about Terrio is that Terrio wasn’t just familiar with the movies, but everything else.

Terrio said he loved the early novels and comics. I remember he specifically mentioned Zahn. And he said he liked the new stuff, such as Claudia Gray.

I remember seeing both books on his shelf in his Twitter image showing he hadn’t made up astral projection.

When did Luke go dark? He considered killing Ben. To go dark, he’d at least have to attempt.

However, he did show anger when he destroyed the hut Rey was in when she swas with Ren. But is that going dark?

 

I love this thread. And yes — I agree with all said before. I need to reread dark empire right now

 

I was referring to that brief moment, because for a jedi master at that level of responsiblity (the galaxy is in his hands) even to contemplate pre-emptive agression, against a defenseless victim, who is also in the younger generation of his own family--the mere contemplation of that act, to the point of raising his weapon even for a moment--that was enough to destroy his relationship with Ben, to seal the apostasy of his charge, to destroy his confidence in his own character, in short this temptation (which was presumably all in Snoke's plan, at the insidious leading of Palpatine) was the ultimate stroke against Luke. To make him doubt himself, to destroy the Jedi temple and the new Jedi order. Not just to woo Ben over to the Dark Side for his own sake.

This moment of truly dark contemplation led to Luke eventually abandoning active support of the light. So even though we didn't get Dark Luke as we did in DE, this was a moment of it. That's a point of irony to me because I have seen fans bemoaning this--and it was difficult to take, even for me--but many fans expected or even wanted Luke to be a bad guy this time around. Maybe not a huge fraction, but they were out there.

My writing here is sloppy, but basically I am saying that even a brief lapse into contemplating a dark act was a failing and a slip of colossal proportions in his mind, and I think rightly so. Just as for a moment the dark side got the better of him when he was about to kill Darth Vader. But at that stage a lapse was not so catastrophic, so long as he recovered. When you become a teacher, you have to live to a higher standard.

Having said all that, Yoda basically instructs him not to chase bad money with good. He's made it all worse by punishing himself with exile and losing faith in the Jedi cause. And by (apparently) keeping the details to himself up until the confrontation he has with Rey. It's unclear though, whether he talked to Leia about it in detail. Maybe he did. Fans get to decide that one.

 

yah TROS is basically a very lose adaptation of Dark Empire the same way that MCU's Civil War movie is a very lose adaptation of the comic miniseries. It's very Dark Empire-ish if not exact.

Let's not forget, around the time of DE there's also the Glove of Darth Vader young adult novels with a Mofference and finding something important in the wreckage of the Death Star at the bottom the sea and, y'know, Palpatine's grandchild.

 

I think there are plenty of differences. But I do prefer the Dark Empire trilogy over TROS. I think it's an interesting story about both Luke and Leia. Sidious is a fascinating character, as well. I did see quite a few similar ties in TROS. But I do think that Palpatine's motivations were a lot clearer DE.

 

The idea of Palpatine seeking out younger, powerful bodies with force sensitivity as vessels beyond his own clone technology to take over and targeting Leia’s son is also part of Dark Empire.

EDIT: image removed due to info on where it comes from.

 

Ok. I have never used that site. Was just seeking that panel.

Comicbook.com has smaller captures. Can those be posted?

In any case, I really like the idea of utilizing Legends as a mining ground for concepts that can be refined and polished into newer concepts and Dark Empire is a great example. There were always some very interesting concepts within Dark Empire and my least favorite aspect — Luke’s role in it — was changed for the better for me by way of TLJ. Particularly for a one-movie feature dramatic arc.

 

I also feel it adds some connectivity to the heightened powers overall that both Johnson, Terrio and the story group all saw some inspiration in aspects of Dark Empire.













Lucasfilm owns all of the ideas (not that one can truly own ideas anyway in terms of copyright law) and since they’re not canon any more... mining legends for cool concepts that connected originally with some readers is a good way to ensure some of the best concepts live on.

I fully expect a lot of NJO concepts to eventually be repurposed for Rey Skywalker’s new Jedi Order in time.

To a certain degree Marvel does the same. The Tony Stark and Peter Parker relationship is a repurposed take on the Reed Richards and Peter Parker relationship and the Infinity War played out very differently in the comics also.

 

I never thought that one day I would consider Jason Isaacs being the perfect Leia recast.

 

That's a great selection of panels, E & B, and it gave us another parallel, which I'd forgotten from the comic--Solo gets around the planetary shield by entering hyperspace in the atmosphere to pass through it. This is the exact reverse of what we see in The Force Awakens. I remember it bothered me now, in the comic, because the original novel said you couldn't enter hyperspace near a planet. But that solidifies the connection yet further. The comm tower on the world devastator is also an interesting catch, but it was for only one ship--it was the individual weak point, not a vunlnerability to the fleet as a whole.

For my part, the allusions to Dark Empire have enhanced my enjoyment of the sequel trilogy, although I didn't catch any of them until the second film. I'm not sure a person unfamilar with DE would appreciate any of it as much as I did, especially Rise of Skywalker. In particular, I think I was softened up to the resurrection plot which apparently bothers a number of fans. But my main objections to the sequels are technical, relating to numbers or details or formal issues. The overall plot, the main characters, and the main conflicts are all fine with me.

 

My biggest issue with Dark Empire was Luke. I enjoyed some of the concepts beyond his portrayal. Ironic, I know, since I’m a huge fan of his controversial arc in the Sequel trilogy.

 

TCF-1138, I appreciate your indulgence and your point is well-taken. I suppose this is clear in my case but I will affirm that my only goal here is to appreciate the ways in which the sequel trilogy honors a previous attempt at continuing the saga. I think some people might not realize that they probably had it in mind, and some people might enjoy having a look at dark empire to see how these continuations differ. I hope it will not be a problem if I say that I personally prefer the sequel trilogy but that part of my appreciation stems from this link. This is part of appreciating the sequel trilogy for me, not a contest between it and Dark Empire or Legends as a whole.

 

I didn't like Dark Luke either, really. And I didn't care for how he "investigated" the Dark Side, because I always thought of it as something that gets a kind of grip on you. I think the films had laid that out. But anyway, yes I did enjoy Dark Empire despite what I considered flaws in the narrative. I preferred it to the Thrawn trilogy in many ways, and saw them as alternatives although they are supposed to be compatible. I really felt like the comic captured the FEEL of Star Wars in certain ways and the look, while Zahn's take was too analytical. Also I didn't care for the ysalamiri (or any other force negating life form or effect) since I thought it undermined the concept of the Force, but I digress. At any rate it is marginally easier to accept the creatures in light of the midichlorians but that is definitely a topic for another forum!

There are things I liked about Luke in The Last Jedi, but I have to be honest. I didn't find a way to accept this part of the story in full the first time I watched it. The second time I saw the movie it became easier to accept. I'd still say I might rather have it all be different but this is the sequel trilogy we got, and for what it's worth I do think it has merit. I also have some respect of Rian Johnson even though I didn't care for some of his decisions. Both he and JJ are mixed, neither is all good or all bad. I'd still like to see what Lucas would have done had he kept the property, that is the main loss I feel but I guess that isn't as common among fans as I might want to expect.

 

I'd lapsed away from reading the EU at that point but thanks for mentioning these additional EU parallels. I'm happy with Lucas and Disney repurposing and reshaping stuff that came out in Legends material even though I didn't really like some of it. The main thing I don't like is when people other than Lucas treat material created by West End Games as canonical. Zahn did a little of that but he wasn't too bad about it. The reason I don't like this practice is that for the most part I think the WEG roleplaying game included some really "off" material. I refer to the writing, backstories of characters and some of the stuff about alien races and character names. There was some good or OK material too, but to me some of it was really bad. And after all it was only a game.

 

the initial post from April 2014 where they sent the EU to Legends does say "In order to give maximum creative freedom to the filmmakers and also preserve an element of surprise and discovery for the audience, Star Wars Episodes VII-IX will not tell the same story told in the post-Return of the Jedi Expanded Universe. While the universe that readers knew is changing, it is not being discarded. Creators of new Star Wars entertainment have full access to the rich content of the Expanded Universe."

And certainly the ST has drawn the most from the EU basic broad storyline, but to be fair, a lot of the post ROTJ EU basic story beats are what a lot of any writer coming with a sequel to ROTJ would probably stumble upon.

more specific bits I think from Dark Empire is obviously the Palpatine resurrection (I actually like that TROS keeps it vague as opposed to super-specific details that DE went into) and Luke facing down the AT-AT seems like a visual that was in DE first and since it was at the start of issue #1 it could have been something Johnson cribbed for TLJ.

 

Apart from the parallels I listed in the OP, Ender & Bean found two more good ones in Dark Empire, or maybe I should say three.

13. Han Solo circumventing planetary sheilds by using hyperspace
14. This involves entering/leaving hyperspace within the atmosphere
15. The use of a comm tower as a weakness in the Emperor's devastator fleet

 

DE was great and was my head canon's Ep 7-9 back in the 90s. It jarred with the Chosen One prophecy when the PT came around just as the TROS does now, but I never thought I'd live to see my favourite piece of EU literature make the big screen. Thank you for this post as it has brought back some very fond memories from the early 90s and also a new found appreciation for the real ST!

 

One of the most underrated aspects of Dark Empire was Cam Kennedy’s use of watercolor. It was quite evocative. I was less thrilled by his sketches but I did find his colors fascinating and dreamlike and somewhat ahead of where highly color graded cinema would eventually move more and more toward.

 

Yeah I loved Dark Empire back in the 90's (still do), and btw. that's a nice summary you created, Cratylus.

Still puzzles me why they did not just make a faithful adaptation of Dark Empire instead of this lovely mess of a trilogy. Maybe it's because it was "just" a comic and not a world wide celebrated book like Lord of the Rings.