ST The Sequel Trilogy and Legends EU Parallels

Technically, the First Order was the Empire 2.0. They became the official "government" after the New Republic's destruction. So Palpatine was ruling the galaxy by proxy. However, the Final Order aka the New Empire was never a thing officially. It was a concept and an idea. However, the Sith Eternal fleet never managed to leave Exegol, so the Final Order never really reached its potential beyond a insurrection. The Resistance and Free Galaxy fleet was basically fighting a Sith insurgency before it could become a bigger threat

 

The First Order is becoming a new empire but there are key differences with the Galactic Empire. The biggest difference is The First Order conquers the galaxy with a huge offensive attack to build it's Empire. The Galactic Empire was created politically as a direct extension of the Republic.

 

Sorry I am late to this party. I absolutely LOVE Dark Empire. Here's why: I really dug Zahn's Trilogy, but this was the first EU thing that truly felt like authentic Star Wars. I think it because, in general, comics work better for Star Wars since they are incredibly visual films.

Dark Empire are a bit 90's grim dark now. I did not like Luke turning to the dark side...this was more egregious than any thing that happened to Luke in the ST.

Anyways, I am totally down for any mining of the old EU than new Lucasfilm chooses to do. The fact that I saw so much of Dark Empire in The Rise of Skywalker is one of the reasons I so readily loved/accepted that film.

 

I definitely agree that Luke's moment of darkness and subsequent despondency were much less of a narrative transgression than his going to the dark side and serving Palpatine in the comics. It was really worse too, because he excused it as a way to find out more about what led his father to go to the dark side in the first place. I'll admit that Dark Luke sort of looked cool, and the concept could have been made more interesting, but I didn't like the idea that one could go over to the dark side as a spy and succeed at that. It sort of trivialized the dark side. This gripe wasn't enough to prevent me from reading and collecting the whole first series. The other main plot point I didn't caer for was the return of Boba Fett, even though of course he looked cool. But they were smart to skip over details of how he came back, granted they made the choice. Having the whole Hutt cartel out for Leia was an excellent choice.

Dark Empire had the right look and feel, even though it had many weak points. It was better than Zahn for me because I felt like they respected the importance of the Force and the special role of Luke and Leia in fighting the Dark Side. Zahn by contrast treated the Force as a mere mechanism for the most part, and it bothered me that he would have living creatures repel the Force, when it is generated by all living things. To me these two continuations were each partially good and partially not. Both were fairly derivative.

I'll have to admit, for me the experience of having read Dark Empire added to my enjoyment of the sequel trilogy. There were many nods to it, even before Rise of Skywalker. But also the problems in the actual sequel trilogy didn't seem as bad as the ones in the books or comics. Luke making a grievous mistake and sort of giving up is problematic, but at least he didn't turn out to be the power behind Snoke, which is something I actually suspected might happen. Also now that the novelization has removed the apparent ambiguity everyone gets that the phantom emperor was a clone. But to me it was clear already and the mechanism was similar to that in Dark Empire and I enjoyed that.

 

Agreed, the Dark Side Luke was visually awesome, but actually did to Luke what many accuse the ST of....it undid everything about the OT. Having Luke go through all of Return of the Jedi and Anakin's turn/sacrificed seemed trivialized.

Ysalamiri. Yuck. What a bad plot device.

Same.

 

yah making Palpatine officially a clone now adds more of that Dark Empire vibe, they really need to reprint it with "Now the Major Motion Picture - Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker!"

I wonder how bare the shelf of copies of Dark Empire is at Skywalker Ranch after Abrams, Terrio and Johnson snagged up a few copies. I bet damn skippy that Lawrence Kassadan never read a single page of it though

 

Dark Empire might be the series Daisy Ridley was talking about when she said Chris Terrio had "like ten versions" of something.

 

Like a lot of things in TROS that's implied but vaguely; they talk about a 'real Empire', so I gathered their conquest was only partial.

Looking back on it and DE...one thing that never really set right with me in the latter was that Palpatine was ultimately defeated by a human golfball introduced a ways into the story. I guess they needed a more expendable character to take him down like that, but TROS, much as I found the climax...wanting, at least had the lead finally deliver the killing blow (at least, we have to assume for now it was a killing blow).

 

The clone thing in the novel was really welcome; I'll be honest, even though it was the most obvious explantion I did'nt really expect it to be made canon, perhaps becuse it was so obvious.

The FO controlled terratory and worlds prior to the war, and they had already formed a goverment well before the ST, it's just that said goverment was a militery junta ruled by an dictator, and there's no indication that they were really intrested in making themselves anything more then that.

It's possible for the Ysalamiri to be connected to the Force and still be able to generate a feild that prevents Force-sensatives from using the Force. The two ideas are'nt really mutually exclusive.

Please no; I don't think my eyes could take it

 

From the annotated Heir to the Empire 20th Anniversary Edition:


10: I caught more grief for this one than even the hot chocolate incident. The complaints mostly focused on the idea that the Force is created by living beings, and that it can't be "pushed back" in the way I described, certainly not from other living beings.

Note, though, that I didn't say that was the case. Thrawn did, and contrary to popular belief, Thrawn doesn't actually know everything.

What's actually happening - and we'll see it in action later - is that ysalamiri simply suppress the level of the Force to something below the threshold that Jedi can access. It's a fine distinction, but an important one.

Still, the bottom line for Jedi - and more important for C'baoth - is basically the same. Thrawn can therefore be excused for oversimplifying his explanation.


Think of the Force as like an ambient "mana field" so to speak - with ysalamiri around, the field is weaker, so Jedi can't use it, and certain Jedi powers cannot manifest completely - but it's never completely gone. That's why vornskrs keep finding and attacking Luke and Mara on Myrkr - because, having co-evolved with the ysalamiri, their sense of it is so great that they can use it for hunting, even in a "ysalamiri-created suppressed area".

 

The Force has often been compared to mana, in the traditional polynesian sense. It's less similar to the magic energy used as an element of games like Magic: The Gathering.

I'm glad to read Zahn's defense of the ysalamiri, and to see how he tried to justify it, but it still doesn't quite fit my own interpretation of the Force. I'd rather not have them so I am glad this mechanic was not introduced in the sequel films. I don't deny that, once granted they exist, he made interesting use of them in the story.

What Dark Empire did was present the Force (especially the Dark Side) as powerful and mysterious. If anything, the comic exaggerates Force powers and makes them less subject to ordinary reading to unpuzzle. I prefer that mysterious depiction to the Zahn books where it's too much like physics. I mean I can see where he got that. But it's a different take.

When Lucas introduced midichlorians (and especially the prospect of counting them to measure someone's sensitivity) that seemed like much more moderated approach to treating it as in-universe science. The involvement of midichlorians didn't take away from the mystique in the same manner.

These are my preferences. But I am glad the sequels erred more on the side of Tom Vetich than Tim Zahn. My take.

 

Agreed. Zahn is a sci-fi writer and you can tell. His Star Wars lacked a lot of the swashbuckling/high adventure/comic book energy. The tone was a bit off, even though the stories were decent.

 

Keep in mind that the more analytical, non-mystical take on the Force comes mainly from Thrawn and other "muggles," who make up the majority of the charecters in TTT*. Luke, Leia and C'baoth still treat it as if its the Force from the films, and indeed part of the reason Thrawn looses in the end is becuse he both underestimated and did not properly understand the Force.

*the other books/comics that don't feature many (or any) Force users also take this route in regards to how non-Force users view the Force, so it's not something limited to Zahn.

 

I actually do know what muggles are, even though I haven't read Harry Potter. I'm not sure the contrast works the same between each mythos.

My point about the two different sorts of follow-up has to do with my own preferences--I am pleased that the sequel trilogy went in more of a mysterious direction, rather than a demystifying direction. I am very glad that no "force-negating" or "force-suppressing" anomalies were introduced.

One thing I may not have mentioned before is the emphasis on special items or objects that have unusual connections to the Force. This echoes the holocrons, which were introduced in Dark Empire, but I think the ST goes a lot further with this. You have the lightsaber calling to Rey, the special dagger, Darth Vader's mask, and of course the wayfinders. Rey's drawn into a dark side vision of herself when she touches a Sith Wayfinder, and apparently finds herself drawn further into the darkside when she is defeated by her phantom alter ego.

Talismanic objects aren't really a feature of the OT or PT, unless I am forgetting something but I think they are all over the EU, going back to the kyber crystal in Splinter of the Mind's Eye. while my overall feelings are mixed, I like the way this goes more in the mystical, mysterious direction rather than the sort of antiseptic fictional science direction. however the Force works scientifically, it is experienced as mystical by practitioners.

 

I mean, Thrawn lacks a connection and a proper understanding of the Force (ditto on the other Imperials, who few it as an "ancient religion" now long defunt per ANH) - certianly in this light, and with regards to Thrawn specificly given his charecterization, it would make perfect sense for the Force to be treated the way it is by most peaple in the TTT; I mean the majority of the charecters in that trilogy are'nt Force users, and those who are still treat the Force as mystical.

I think its less that TTT "demystifyed" the Force so much as it had many of the charecters within it approch it from a vastly different mindset as those whou could feel and use it - much in the same way its treated overall in the other "Force-light" EU works, such as the X-wing books/comics.

Is'nt Luke cutting himself off from the Force a form of "Force-supression" - even if its not an anomaly its still the same general idea, yes? Him doing it to himself is'nt really any different then it coming from an outside source, is it?

 

The Kyber Crystal as talisman was even in early drafts of ANH screenplay. It's been there from the start.

It would appear the Rey can touch an object and through the Force see it's past history. Also it's unclear how much these objects are giving Rey and Kylo Ren visions and how much of it is the Emperor or Force Ghosts working through objects to deliver a vision.

Depending how you feel about seeing the future through the Force, the dagger could be bait made years earlier to both motivate Rey to go to Exegol and lead her there. All of it created in advance to lure Rey into the Emperor's plans.

 

Rey has psychometry, the ability to sense an object's past upon touching it. This appears to be the explanation rather than a special property of the object(s) in question, although it seems to apply only to her contact with special objects that are linked to the Force in a particular way.

And I do think Rey was "meant" to find the dagger--at least that's an explanation that works for me. Not that she was meant by Ochi to find it in that way specifically, but that she personally was supposed to use it that way when it was made.

 

To me it is different, but I have to add that this is an element that echoes something from the EU (Dark Forces 2: Jedi Knight) and it's one of my least favorite ST borrowings from the EU. It's easier to accept than the others, but in my ideal version it wouldn't be there either. In any case he is consciously blocking out whatever leadings he gets from the Force, presumably so that he won't impact anything because he is afraid of doing further harm. That's different from something having the power to nullify the Force or being immune to it. Luke isn't immune to it like the Yuuzhan Vong or the Ysalamiri.

EDIT: Hopefully this double post will not offend, I am trying to avoid double dipping.

 

It's probobly just the fact that she accidently used the power in TFA and is'nt fully trained. Down the line she should probobly be able to do it with any object that has a proper "echo" embedded in like Vos and Cal Cestis can.

That's a misconception - neither the Vong nor the Ysalamiri are actually immune to the Force; the Ysalamiri create a bubble that negates the Force (and in all honestly they could just be using the Force to create the bubble in first Force place) and the Vong are cut off from the Force as a race, can't be sensed or "seen" by Force users and can't be affected by mental powers like mind tricks, but they can be affected by pysical abilities like push, pull or lightning.

I was going to invite you over for chips and dip, but not anymore!

 

Well in any case, I didn't like the ysalamiri or the vong plots, the concept was too alien to the "force mysticism" which I find central to Star Wars.

 

That's very fair. And honestly, while I don't have a problem with the ysalamiri and I do like the Vong, I did (and to a degree still do) find the "completly cut off from the Force and unable to be sense by in all ways" thing a bit hard to swollow, even if I did like that it helped distinquish and set them apart from previus villians in the universe.

It's defiantly interesting to see how many different takes on a universe different creators can come up with the longer a francise goes on and the more it expands.

 

Now I'm quite aware that Legends is not considered canon, but upon reading about the Legacy comic characters...such as Ania Solo...I couldn't help but see the similarities. I found an article that broke down all the similarities:

Rey: scavenger
Ania: junk trader

Rey becomes friends with a defected stormtrooper of the final Order
Ania becomes friends with a defected Imperial Knight

These are just a few mentioned. The author also points out the design for Darth Wredd and Kylo Ren are very similar. I can't seem to link the article so I'd suggest typing the legend of ania solo into the search bar. Add Rey to narrow it down.

Anyway, given the fact that it seems J.J pulled Palpatine's revival from Dark Empire. Add the Legacy of the Force plot and it does make one wonder. Now, I'm aware that nothing is entirely original but it makes Rey's story a strange amalgam of other stories all mashed together. The only difference I believe is I'm not sure if Ania is Force-sensitive...It doesn't seem so that I can recall.

Kind of on par for Abrams really since he's always borrowing stuff-even from his own movies: i.e. Star Trek.

Those are just my thoughts and something I wanted to share.

 

I didn't really read the Vong stuff but I buy them being cut off from the Force more now because Like cuts himself off from the Force in TLJ