Amph "The Sleeper Has Awakened" - DUNE DISCUSSION-

Those look straight out of Gundam Wing.

 

Look just because the Harkonnen captain keeps talking about the purity of piloted mobile suit combat and the need for Earth sphere control to be consolidated under OZ does not mean they're straight out of Gundam Wing, okay?

 

You know, I used to believe that the amount of political back-stabbing and double crosses that existed on this show was both surreal and completely implausible. After watching the Trump White House, I realize it's really just the former.

 

Well, part of the reason there is it was actually the rough of outline of Gundam through ZZ Gundam (That's like 140 episodes of tv all told) plus Char's Counterattack condensed into one 50-ish episode series.

And also because Gundam was secretly the most politically realistic show ever ever.

 

You will meet my favorite character of the series in Heretics.

 

Maybe after the Beast Trump has been disposed off the population will be more amenable to Feyd-Clinton?

 

Okay so I finally finished reading through this...can't remember when was the last time I actually finished a book. Anyway, I feel bad because this paperback copy that I've been borrowing repeatedly from the library looked all nice and new a couple of months ago, and now it looks all worn out after all the trips through my backpack...

 

libraries still lend out paperbacks?

 

Libraries still lend out books?

 

Looks like the Denis Villeneuve adaptation of Dune is still a-go, and it's being reported that he's found his Paul in actor Timothee Chalamet.

 

About the only things our library doesn't loan out are newspapers, the current issues of magazines, and microfilms. Pretty much anything else can go out, as long as you have a valid library card.

 

"Kevin J. Anderson will serve as a creative consultant."

 

Annnnnnnnd just like that any potential interest I might have had evaporated.

 

I tell ya, I almost want to read the non-Herbert books just to see what the problem is people have with them.

 

I only read the two "Dune 7" books so let me just sort of break down the descent there:

1. Want to know who comes back as a ghola?
   
   In and of itself this isn't the most egregious sin, considering Duncan Idaho and the precise way Chapterhouse ends (though I'm in the camp that by Chapterhouse F. Herbert was going through the motions), but, er...
2. Weird retcons immediately commence wherein it is revealed that absolutely everything originates from the Tleilaxu, except for
3. Machine super intelligences left over from the crusades (because apparently we need to tie in those earlier B. Herbert & KJA books) are chasing after our protagonists, but also creating an army. This is sort of the de facto opposition to the Tleilaxu and both factions oppose the no-ship, which, by the way
4. Finds a water planet with a bunch of... water... sandworms... but Leto II's ghola can control them but
5. Also there's a SUPER TURBO ULTIMATE DELUXE EDITION KWISATZ HADERACH THE THIRD STRIKE which turns out to be EVIL PAUL, THE PAUL THAT IS EVIL (as opposed to regular Paul who merely committed genocide???).
6. Also Yueh makes up for his mistakes by killing Harkonnen except they're both gholas and I long for the sweet embrace of death
7. Condemned to this hellworld and confronted with the angst of the nothing that awaits, I must live on.
   
8. Obligatory listen to Simon & Garfunkel while staring at the wall for a long, long time.
   
9. You get to the end and the super machines are... beaten... somehow... and Paul reunites with Chani but they're both gholas but they possess the souls of all their reincarnations or... christ, I paid $14 for this **** back in undergrad when I had no money to really burn, what was I thinking?

Edit: So it's kind of this situation where, if you read all of this as a fanfic "finale," you would maybe write it off as some really strange ideas hellbent on a level of recurrence the original series did not actually advocate, as middling-to-bad fanfic does. And indeed I suspect there are Dune fanfics which propose a more solid ending, if one even deems one necessary. If it were merely presented as licensed "canon" I think most folks would look at it that way. But instead the insistence here from the BH&KJA camp is that there's a core of The Real Frank Herbert ****(TM) courtesy of extensive notes, in the way that, say, The Wheel of Time was finished based on notes. But where the latter was permeated with certain characteristics of Robert Jordan's style such that it was clear the process was "on the level" (so to speak), in the Dune 7 books much of what made the core six titles so interesting is difficult to extract, to the point that conspiracies abound as to whether there were any notes at all. My belief is the more charitable "the input of the new authors smothered what material Frank left," which still isn't great, but in conclusion ugh, these ****ing things.

 

And I missed the edit window but now I'm ruminating on this nightmare so let me add: I could forgive all of the weirdness, terrible contrivances, strange retcons, &c. if the presentation was enticing, but instead we're stuck with the likes of

While I don't think of Dune as this masterwork of intricate prose constructions I would ask you to nonetheless contrast the very first instance of [thing] within [itself] within [itself]:

You will notice that what Frank Herbert does not do is constantly remind you of how plan the plans are, man, outside of that single formulation. There's a mercenary ugliness here, to be sure, but it's not redundant. Brian Herbert and KJA seem convinced that if you forget, for even a paragraph, that our heroes are lost in another universe, they have to remind you. Consequently I think they would render the preceding as follows:

 

So the most I've seen is Villeneuve adaptation being multiple movies is that it might be two. Having only seen the Lynch version (and Jardawoky's Dune) I'm assuming the split point is when Paul ends up on the sandworm planet?

 

Probably not; the arrival on Arrakis is too early in the book for the narrative preceding it to support an entire film. My best guess (in a two film scenario) would be that they take advantage of Dune's tripartite structure. With Book Two being largely disconnected anecdotes they could put some parts of that book in the first movie with Book One, some parts in the second movie with Book Three, and not even bother with some portions that can be inferred, referenced, or ignored.

 

I used to joke that Dune 8 would be called Dunes Within Dunes Within Dunes, so I fully agree with your depiction.

 

Is it the actor himself or do you feel he just doesn't fit Paul? I've never seen him in anything, so I can't comment on his acting. He's got the "hawkish" Atreides nose though .

I've read a handful to whet my appetite for all things Dune, but I can say w/o hesitation that they're about as flat as a 13th century globe. Not only do the younger Herbert and Anderson lack the elder's grasp on "bigger" ideas and concepts, their stories typically consist of filling in the gaps that don't need filled in. I thought maybe there was some fertile ground in their trilogy about the Butlerian Jihad, but I've read more compelling prose on the back of cereal boxes.

Many years ago me and a friend of mine agreed that what we thought would work best would be to split the original novel into two parts, w/the first film beginning w/Paul's shield practice w/Gurney and ending w/Paul's fight w/Jamis. Then we'd begin the second film w/Feyd fighting the gladiator in the arena and end it obviously w/Paul and Feyd's fight. Not only did the Paul/Jamis fight feel like a natural stopping point and a compelling climax, we liked the idea of beginning and finishing each film w/one on one fight.

 

You can if you wish to, but the difference will be painfully visible if you have some understanding of history and/or politics.

 

You misunderstand, I doubt anyone has anything against the actor, we're mainly expressing concern and distress over KJA's role as creative consultant.

 

Ahhh, yeah, re-reading that I see it now. That's what I get for replying after a 12 hour shift . Sorry 'bout that. And yeah, couldn't agree more.

 

Consultant is a pretty broad and vague term when it comes to big budget movies, though. I don't expect Anderson to be throwing around any creative force. Frankly he's probably just there for them to ring up "Hey, what's the name of that big bug on that planet?"

 

I have only seen Arrival and Blade Runner 2049 by Villeneuve. I am not worried about KJA.