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CT The soldiers on the Tantive IV

Discussion in 'Classic Trilogy' started by Palp_Faction, Feb 4, 2018.

  1. Palp_Faction

    Palp_Faction Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Feb 3, 2002
    Are they wearing a generic rebel uniform or is that the uniform of the Alderaanian fleet trooper? If it is a generic rebel uniform, then how can Leia make a case that she was on a diplomatic mission for the Empire?
     
  2. Among the Clouds

    Among the Clouds Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    May 18, 2001
    She can't. They were firing back at the Empire. When the Empire boarded, they continued to fire back at the troops. Leia was making a last ditch effort to claim diplomatic immunity. As for the outfits, there were Rebels on Yavin wearing that same outfit. So they're most likely "Rebel Fleet Troopers" as they have been known for a long time.
     
  3. Snafu55

    Snafu55 Jedi Knight star 2

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    Oct 19, 2015
    I've always been somewhat confused by the subject in canon and legends it's unclear... Sometimes they're stated as Alderaanian fleet or royal security other times they're just Rebel Fleet Troopers. I personally side with the latter because in the new canon we see them all over the Rebel Base on Yavin and being all the personnel on rebel ships in R, and in Battlefront 2 they're the troops who fight on Naboo and on all the rebel cruisers as well...so they're very much more than fleet troopers (and most of the time just the general infantry of the Rebel Alliance).

    Maybe they adopted the uniform from the Senate or from Alderaan (like @Lt. Hija suggested) or somewhere else, it'd make a great story to hear how the rebels adopted the uniform into their standard uniform over time because we don't see it in Rebels at all.
     
  4. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

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    Sep 2, 2012
    I thought we saw it (or at least a variant) in Season 3 onward: Mon Mothma's attache:

    http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Erskin_Semaj
     
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  5. Slicer87

    Slicer87 Jedi Master star 4

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    Mar 18, 2013
    Problem is, Alderaan is supposed to be a peaceful planet without weapons as Leia states to Tarkin. So likely they are rebel fleet trooopers, perhaps they were Alderaan funded.
     
  6. Sarge

    Sarge Chosen One star 6

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    Oct 4, 1998
    Alderaan may have been a peaceful planet, but I don't think that means their royalty and senators wouldn't have armed bodyguards. IMO, Leia's claim of "no weapons" means no military offensive capability, and doesn't apply to personal defensive sidearms.
     
  7. StartCenterEnd

    StartCenterEnd Jedi Master star 3

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    May 2, 2006
    I wonder how much the "no weapons!" Theme was Lucas expressing his liberal political beliefs.
     
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  8. Snafu55

    Snafu55 Jedi Knight star 2

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    Oct 19, 2015
    let's not turn this into a political discussion (it's a bit paradoxical if he states no weapons than has characters that "shoot first and ask questions later"). And I doubt Alderaan had no weapons, they were one of the chief suppliers and supporters of the rebellion and in R1, Bail Organa was going back to tell his people to prepare for war.
     
    Last edited: Feb 4, 2018
  9. StartCenterEnd

    StartCenterEnd Jedi Master star 3

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    May 2, 2006
    Star Wars is inherently political though. Leia is a feminist political revolutionary figure fighting against the militant government.

    And Lucas changed it so Greedo shoots first. ;)

    Besides even in the original Han Solo goes on an arc. He starts as a morally shifty character and ends up embracing the morales of the rebellion. Luke and Leia chastise him for shooting the place up and using his blaster too much.

    Star Wars is clearly anti-gun. It's described as random and clumsy and so uncivilized.
     
  10. Snafu55

    Snafu55 Jedi Knight star 2

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    Oct 19, 2015
    Maybe it is a variant indeed, might not be since he's a senatorial attache from Chandrilia, might be the uniform of that planet or a uniform of the senate. I wish we got a backstory on the fleet trooper uniforms!!!!!
     
  11. Lt. Hija

    Lt. Hija Jedi Master star 4

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    Dec 8, 2015
    Oh my goodness, one of my pet subjects. I think I better quote from a treatise from 2005 I forwarded to Mr. Hidalgo:


    Are the soldiers defending Princess Leia aboard the Tantive IV really “Rebel (Fleet) Troopers”?

    Right from the start the prologue of A New Hope makes it abundantly clear to the viewers that Princess Leia, “custodian of the stolen (Death Star) plans”, is a part of the Rebel Alliance. Both prologue and the subsequent events (and the screenplay) instantly enabled the viewer to distinguish the “good Rebel” from the “bad Imperial” guys, and understandably the action figures of Princess Leia’s defiant defenders were labeled as “Rebel Troopers”.

    However, from an in-universe point of view, this designation looks rather inaccurate. We can safely assume that Darth Vader never saw the film’s prologue (nor read the screenplay) or the action figure toy before he ordered his men to board Princess Leia’s consular ship and to ignore whatever resistance they might encounter there.

    When Vader enters the Tantive IV he takes a glance at the bodies of Princess Leia’s defendants, but obviously what he sees is so inconclusive that instead he chokes his way through the ranks of these to get the information he wants and resorts to speculation and accusations (“You weren’t on any mercy mission this time!” “Several transmissions were sent to this ship by Rebel spies!” “You’re a part of the Rebel Alliance and a traitor!”).

    It becomes obvious and clear that none of the uniforms of the soldiers his man killed or captured is a clear proof for the Rebel allegiance of the ship or its crew which he could use as an evidence to prove to the Imperial Senate that he caught the princess red-handed to justify his illegal assault on a diplomatic ship.

    Simply put, Princess Leia’s guards were to be expected aboard the Tantive IV, but if these were not “Rebel Troopers” what is their correct designation? Alderaanian guards, Imperial Senate Guards a private security service or else?

    According to the aforementioned Lucas Notes (and Princess Leia) “The people on the ships are the royal guard, more like guards than troops. All the men on my ship were essentially part of the Rebellion. They were handpicked because of their antipathy toward the Empire”.

    Being confronted with the prospect that her home planet of Alderaan is to become the first victim of the Death Star (an idea of Tarkin, not of Vader!), Princess Leia reacts “No. Alderaan is peaceful. We have no weapons.”

    This is not a little girl appealing to an ill-informed Imperial grunt for mercy, but the high-profile Imperial Senator Organa reminding the equally well informed Imperial Governor of the Outer Rim territories about what seems to be a galaxy wide known fact; and neither Tarkin, Vader or Admiral Motti object, which suggests that her statement is correct.[1]

    According to the Lucas Notes (and Princess Leia) “Some of the more militant systems started training military forces (for the Rebellion). The more peaceful systems, like [Alderaan], became gatherers of information”. But even if we were to assume that the armed units aboard her ship had just been soldiers of the Alderaan Royal Guard, it’s a fact that the kind of uniform worn by Captain Antilles (whom Vader choked to death) is also worn by General Willard (commander-in-chief of the Rebel Forces), General Dodonna and other high ranking Alliance officers at the Rebel base on Yavin IV, add to this the numbers of “Alderaan Royal Guards” patrolling and guarding the base and participating at the medal ceremony at the end of the film.

    Such overwhelming presence of Alderaanian armed units would then somewhat thwart both Leia’s “We have no weapons” claim and the one that others, but not Alderaan, were providing armed units to the Rebel Alliance!

    Wouldn’t the Imperial Senate see to it that its pacifist members like Alderaan can travel the galaxy and conduct their diplomatic missions unmolested by space pirates or overzealous Imperial agents? Providing such members with armed protection and vessels would then suggest that the guards protecting the Imperial Senator Organa were actually “Imperial Senate Guards”[2], which in Leia’s case undoubtedly consisted mostly or entirely of royal guards of Alderaan.

    The Phantom Menace
    featured the Republic Senate Guard in blue as a counterpart to the (later) red guards of the Emperor (first featured in Return of the Jedi). The Imperial Senate Guards seen near the beginning and end of A New Hope may look like a far cry from the original Senate Guards, but their shirts still reveal the blue colors, now (appropriately) faded and somewhat washed out.

    It’s also obvious that this uniform lost its significance in the sequels following the dissolution of the Imperial Senate in A New Hope, explaining its absence in the subsequent films.


    [1] Yet, the novelization reveals that Alderaan had defensive systems to repel a conventional attack from space.

    [2] In a manner of speaking the counterparts to the black, samurai-helmeted Imperial (Military) Guards featured in all three films of the Original Trilogy

    One should remember that "Rebel Fleet Trooper" was a conjectural designation the Folks from West End Games came up first. [face_sigh]

     
    Last edited: Feb 5, 2018
  12. Sith Lord 2015

    Sith Lord 2015 Jedi Knight star 3

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    Oct 30, 2015
    There were firing back? Wow! It's called "self-defense", so of course they fired back. What were they supposed to do? Legally, as far as we know from ANH, the Empire had no right to attack and board the Tantive IV, which is called a "diplomatic" ship. So should the soldiers just have stood there to be killed or taken prisoner?
     
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  13. Snafu55

    Snafu55 Jedi Knight star 2

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    Oct 19, 2015
    But, the new canon would say differently, these troops are the standard infantry of the alliance, in R1 they fill the rebel ships' support personnel. And are throughout the battlefront 2 game, which takes place before and after ROJ (throughout the liberation of Naboo and on Rebel Cruisers).
    The fact that Vader had to kill so many through his boarding of the Profundity kinda proves there was no reason to peacefully board the Tantive IV in ANH...
     
  14. Lt. Hija

    Lt. Hija Jedi Master star 4

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    Dec 8, 2015
    @Snafu55

    Obviously clouded by 'Uncle EU'. In ANH Vader boards the Tantive IV and stops (!) for a moment to see against whom his stormtroopers were fighting. Again, if the uniforms had any affiliation with the Alliance he surely would have said something about that to Leia.

    And let's not forget that there were other infantry uniforms present during the medal ceremony:

    [​IMG]

    WEG overlooked these and so did NuCanon. Heck, even Ralph McQuarrie acknowledged these "true" Alliance infantry uniforms and made something out of these:

    [​IMG]
    ^:)^
     
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  15. Snafu55

    Snafu55 Jedi Knight star 2

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    Oct 19, 2015
    @Lt. Hija
    we just grew up in different star wars generations XP
    it's why we have such different interpretations of uniforms
     
    Last edited: Feb 5, 2018
  16. Lt. Hija

    Lt. Hija Jedi Master star 4

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    Dec 8, 2015
    @Snafu55

    Interpretations are based on beliefs and assumptions, but already back in 1977 Lucas felt obviously compelled to clarify that Leia's defenders were "more like (Alderaanian) guards than troops" and that finally reflected in the cast credits of Rogue One.

    "Rebel Fleet Trooper" is and remains a WEG conjecture, the first time that designation popped up was in their Alliance Sourcebook. Before there was no name, and Vader definitely didn't say "These are rebel uniforms and therefore you're a part of the Rebel Alliance, and I'll have your defenders imprisoned for evidence".

    Lucas (and Edwards) clarified that Leia's defenders were handpicked members of the Alderaanian guard, but did they also wear the uniform of the Alderaanian Guard?
    (Lucas) “Some of the more militant systems started training military forces (for the Rebellion). The more peaceful systems, like [Alderaan], became gatherers of information”.

    Lucas clarified that Alderaan didn't contribute military forces to the Alliance, yet that's the uniform we see abundantly at Yavin IV and the top brass there wears the same kind of uniform as Antilles. Thus it's a logial conclusion that the uniform belongs to another service and since there are other senators and worlds supporting the Alliance's cause (at Yavin IV), "Imperial Senate Guard" makes the most sense, IMHO.
     
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  17. Among the Clouds

    Among the Clouds Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    May 18, 2001
    Can you show me where I said they either did or didn't have the right to fire back?

    Also, you're assuming the Empire fired on the Tantive IV first. Unfortunately when the film begins we don't see who fired the first shots.
     
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  18. Sith Lord 2015

    Sith Lord 2015 Jedi Knight star 3

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    Oct 30, 2015
    Yes, we can assume the Empire fired first. It would have been foolish for the Tantive IV to attack a star destroyer. True, in the movie it's not clear which ship fired the first shots, but in the novelization the Tantive IV doesn't fight back at all, only tries to evade the Imperial "cruiser's" lasers. I'm sure there are other sources but the novelization is the one I could find right now. Also I think it's pretty clear Lucas meant for the Empire to be the aggressor.
     
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  19. Lt. Hija

    Lt. Hija Jedi Master star 4

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    Dec 8, 2015
    "Alderaan is peaceful" - That's an essential premise which also makes the Empire's destruction of Leia's home planet and millions of her citizens so wretched.

    But given the prospect of pirates and other scum that would love to hijack a senator and a royal member of Alderaan for ransom, I don't believe we seriously have to ask why the Tantive IV had been armed for self-protection and accordingly used its main guns in a vain attempt to stop the Devastator from pursuing.
     
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  20. The Supreme Chancellor

    The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Master star 4

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    Sep 4, 2012
    According to the original radio drama they kept absolutely none. Leia's father (not sure if he was named Bail back then) is surprised and angry when an Imperial Officer shows up to dinner with his blaster in holster.
     
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  21. Lt. Hija

    Lt. Hija Jedi Master star 4

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    Dec 8, 2015
    ^ Yes, and Lord Tion (the Imperial) wants to hunt Alderaanian wildlife while he stays on Alderaan but is told that they just don't do these things.

    I don't see that as a contradiction. I can very well imagine young Alderaanians being fed up with the pacifistic attitude of their government and joining the Alliance instead (Leia herself was pretty good with a blaster).
    I have no doubt that there were Alderaanian pilots among those that got ready to attack the Death Star. Prior to take-off Leia walks through the hangar of the Great Temple on Yavin IV, probably not to get a top brass sightseeing tour but rather to talk and share a moment of grief with her fellow Alderaanians, equally affected by destruction of their home planet.
     
  22. Sarchet

    Sarchet Jedi Knight star 2

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    Jan 23, 2016
    It's perfectly perfectly possible that Alderaan is providing large quantities of "non-military" supplies to the Alliance - food, medical supplies, uniforms - but not blasters. This would account for it appearing as if there are lots of Alderaanian troops on Yavin IV. It's also deniable - those could all be provided as humanitarian supplies (surplus uniforms would.be an easy source of rugged clothing after a natural disaster) and "stolen" by Rebels.
     
  23. Lt. Hija

    Lt. Hija Jedi Master star 4

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    Dec 8, 2015
    "Alderaanian uniforms"?

    Lucas: “Some of the more militant systems started training military forces (for the Rebellion). The more peaceful systems, like [Alderaan], became gatherers of Information.

    The Alliance was created as a proxy, i.e. to fight the Empire but without providing any information from whom they got their support, so that the Empire couldn't punish individual planets or star systems for their support. That's why Motti - in an earlier ANH draft (and before the Senate had been dissolved) - suggested that the Death Star should destroy every planet suspected to support the Alliance, i.e. they didn't know who was actually supporting the Alliance.

    Providing uniforms whose origin could be traced back to Alderaan would have been suicide.
     
  24. BLemelisk

    BLemelisk Jedi Master star 4

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    Aug 19, 2003
    @Lt. Hija

    So what are we to assume about the uniforms of Captain Antilles and the rest of the command staff seen present at Yavin? Their rank insignia goes on to be used in at least The Empire Strikes Back.

    Were these standardized uniforms of planetary security forces under the Empire?

    Regular Imperial Service Ranks:
    [​IMG]

    Imperial-Sanctioned Planetary Security Ranks:
    [​IMG]

    By Return of the Jedi, we see the above phased out by more professional and standardized insignia after probably some kind of military reform as the Rebellion's military grew:
    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Mar 1, 2018
  25. Lt. Hija

    Lt. Hija Jedi Master star 4

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    Dec 8, 2015
    Imperial Senate Guards or some planetary or intergalactic security service. But given their (IMHO) obvious 'counterpart look' to the samurai-helmeted black guards of the Empire, I believe "Senate Guard" to be the correct costume design intention.

    Again, the Alliance (to restore the Republic) was set up by Bail Organa and Mon Mothma as a proxy to rebel and fight against the Empire so that no star system had to suffer Imperial retaliation.
    And IMHO it made sense for the senate to provide its senators with a uniform kind of protection, i.e. the moment you see that uniform (as a pirate or other criminal) and mess around, you know that the Imperial Senate will come down on you like a ton of bricks.

    Of course, after the dissolution of the Imperial Senate and new volunteers that had no affiliation to the 'Senate Armed Forces', the uniform lost its significance and was eventually replaced by the "official" Alliance uniform we saw in ROJ, which nevertheless kept the blue shirt of the former senate guards.

    [​IMG]
     
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