ST The ST: What Would You Change/Revise?

Maybe Luke was always a Dumbass?

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I guess everything. But basically I would just recommend having a plot for the trilogy.

Right now it's like if you watched "Labyrinth", followed by "Chinatown", and then had to think, "Gee, I wonder how JJ is gonna wrap all this up?"

It's a total debacle.

 

No, only at the Jedi academy prom. He felt lonely and drank too much blue milk.

 

Watch IV an V in a single sitting. It's jarring.

 

I think there is some merit in there being a slight disconnect, but Labyrinth and Chinatown? Honestly?

 

This is a fair and intelligent analysis as to why more politics were actually necessary in the ST

 

I like the ST as it is but i would've loved to see something somewhat similar to the Jedi Knight games.

 

Not sure where else to put this, but I figured here's a safe bet.

 

I feel obliged to say that I don't consider myself a ST "hater". For the most part, I liked TFA. I liked a lot of TLJ, while having some serious issues with it. I feel that if SKYWALKER "sticks the landing", it has the potential to change how at least some of us see TFA and maybe TLJ. That's the context for what follows. And I am sure much of this has been offered elsewhere in this Thread.

1) A coherent overall three part story outline, in place, at the start.
2) If Han, Luke, Leia (especially) and Chewie, ObiWan, Yoda, R2 and C3P0 are going to appear, use them in a way that sends them "off" with... I don't know... honor? I actually like Luke's send off, in many ways (now, his path TO that send off? Let's discuss... ;^) ) but wow was Han's story sad.
3) Resist the urge to make it look like the heroic efforts in 4, 5, and 6 didn't count for much. Sure, the new story needs a threat. No argument. Just saying...
4) Related to 1, figure out who Finn is. A battle hardened trooper with sudden pangs of conscience? A low level noncombatant support grunt thrown into combat? Comic relief?
5) Let the audience know in TFA that yeah, what Rey is doing IS unprecedented, the creative team knows it, it's not plot armor, it's something that WILL be explained.
6) A bit more coherent exposition re the Republic, First Order, and Resistance. How did we get here? Not Prequel level politicking. But - set the stage, well.
7) Subverting expectations isn't a positive unless you subvert cleverly and satisfyingly. Subverting isn't hard. Doing it well IS.
8) Don't set up fan expectations you have no intention of paying off. See 7, above - and yeah, talking about Phasma here for sure. Shades of Boba in ROTJ.

At the macro level, that's about it, for me, I think.

 

1. Instead of following the Luke story of a kid from a backward planet becomes a Jedi for the *third* time, I would use instead use Leia's story and have Rey be an adopted daughter on a rich, peaceful planet.

2. I would have Kylo Ren and Ben Solo be two distinct characters, but they would be the same person (that would be your ESB twist).

3. I would ditch Stormtroopers, X-Wings, TIE Fighters and all the lazy OT iconography. TFA is a remake of ANH - no ifs, no buts. Probably the laziest film of all time.

4. I would not assume that everyone in the audience is intimately familiar with Star Wars and I would introduce the force, lightsabers etc gradually through the film rather than spunk them away in the very first scene in a meaningless fashion.

5. I would not end the first film on a cliffhanger. Clanger of all clangers, that one. I wouldn't even have Luke in the first film, TBH. Maybe not even Han and Chewie either.

6. Agree with the poster above re. stetting the stage. I would not be blowing up multiple planets (and have it be of next to no consequence) in the first film. The threat would be more personal (more like TPM with just one planet under threat) with a far-right uprising that builds in strength and support.

7. The characters would drive the plot. In TFA awakens, it's the plot driving the characters which is why loads of things just happen just because.

8. NO SUPER WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION.

9. I would get anyone other than JJ Abrams to write or direct. Seriously, I'd rather have Michael Bay over him.

10. The Force Awakens really is naff, isn't it.

 

It's obvious that what the ST really needed was more exploration of the macrobiotic world.

 

I dunno....I loved the audacity of showing Luke and then signing off.

 

It's nice in theory but really hamstrung the next film, tie-in media, kids imagining between movie adventures with their toys etc

 

Well, yeah, actually. It would at least have been original.

 

The more I learn about Lucas' outlines, the more I want to say "just go with that."

The Force Awakens does have the rehash problem. Make an enemy that's not the Empire, grunts that aren't Stormtroopers, none of the same Imperial vehicles, etc. Above all, no Death Star. Yeah, I know Return of the Jedi was already pushing it with its Death Star II, but there wasn't as much a focus of overshadowing the original and trying to convince the audience by how different and more powerful it was. You'll never recreate how awe inspiring the original was, and trying to top it just diminishes the impact all around.

I would have also preferred a "show, don't tell" approach to following the leads of the original trilogy; this may have also given more credibility to whatever drastic changes happened to Luke over time if we encountered him at some point versus only explaining it. Plus a grand reunion was just about the only thing fans wanted going into it. The new characters were being passed the torch before it was even their time to shine, thus we never got a satisfying follow-up or even conclusion to the original cast.

To me, the Last Jedi was harder to watch than The Force Awakens. Most of that just boils down to a general feeling (also the not so stellar setup from TFA). Though the only concrete issue is Luke's characterization. I would have admired the film for at least branching out and taking more chances if it didn't do so at the cost of disrespecting one of the most beloved characters of the franchise. Also, the story with the slave kids felt like they were trying to pass off the series to the next generation when the current generation hadn't even been accepted yet.

 

Isn't that basically what happens in one of the NEU novels? Bloodline I think?

 

I think there are some workable basic ideas in the overall story of the ST and in its tie-in literature. Part of the trouble, IMO, is that these are hampered by unnecessary inclusion of elements from the PT and OT.

1. Kylo Ren, the combination of the "grandchild" and "Jedi Hunter" character concepts from the early drafts of TFA, is not necessarily a bad idea. There could be many reasons for why a Jedi of the new Order would part ways with Grandmaster Luke Skywalker. It could be a philosophical disagreement, or even just an argument over what to do in a particular situation.

What squanders most potential in the concept of Kylo Ren is the imprecise grafting of parts of Darth Vader's portrayal onto Kylo's. He doesn't just leave the new Jedi Order; he destroys it with the help of his gang, the Knights of Ren, and murders his fellow students. He dons a mask and commits more acts of mass murder. Naturally, a randomly inserted character exists to justify why he became so utterly twisted: through manipulation, we're told.

The result is a character who is uniquely repulsive and unimpressive in a way that no other SW villain has been up to this point. The grafting of Vader-like features onto Kylo was imprecise, because the particular reasons why Vader turned simply do not exist for Kylo. He's almost the anti-Vader in that sense: coming from affluence rather than poverty, having grown up in a time of peace rather than war, without even the villainous virtues of familial loyalty and competence that Vader had.

I think a better version of Kylo Ren would have either consistently leaned into the notion that he's deeply repulsive (TFA did this more than TLJ), or made him much more impressive and honourable, and possibly moderate.

2. The notion of a neo-Imperial faction emerging to challenge the re-established Galactic Republic is workable. It's the basis for the Thrawn Trilogy, after all. There just needs to be a credible reason for why the neo-Imperial faction emerges out of the squabbling warlord remnants that would barely survive, let alone thrive, after the Galactic government that paid their bills becomes a democratic republic again.

The notion of a neo-Imperial faction just being a rebranded old Galactic Empire, replete with cannon fodder stormtroopers, immense ISDs and swarms of TIE fighters, is not plausible in a sequel to ROTJ. It's especially implausible when the reason for this faction's emergence is a randomly inserted character whose OOU purpose seems to be to replicate Palpatine.

The Thrawn Trilogy used a tactical genius to give new strength to the Imperial remnants. An alternative ST could have used a similar character. My personal view is that Kylo Ren should have been that character: a charismatic, imposing 30-something warrior whose political and martial genius allows him to unite the emaciated warlord states on the edge of the Galaxy into an insurgent power that could conceivably challenge the New Republic. Unlike Snoke, a more moderate Kylo Ren - motivated by a desire to bring order to the lawless frontier - would be an internally consistent explanation.

3. The NEU book Bloodline has a pretty good idea for what could cause the political downfall of Leia: her dubious family ties.

I personally don't think that Leia and Luke would conceal the truth about Anakin Skywalker from the wider Republic. It seems like yet another failure on the part of the OT heroes for them to leave this issue to fester so long in the new canon.

However, Leia being the mother of the mysterious Kylo Ren would by itself be very scandalous. This isn't a long dead evil from decades ago, but a very real threat to the Republic which citizens could plausibly have doubts about Leia's ability to deal with. It occurred to me that even the canon ST films don't make it clear if the broader Resistance is aware that the man who is responsible for so much of their suffering is really the son of their leader. This, much more than the Anakin/Vader connection, would be a bombshell.

If the idea of Leia's political career being derailed by family ties were to have been brought from a tie-in novel into the main films, it could have been developed further.

In an alternate version of Episode 7, Leia would start out as a deservedly popular Chancellor of the Republic. She is a reformist who is ameliorating poverty and bringing power back to the people. She's everything Palpatine promised to be in TPM, and more, with the difference being that she's totally sincere about it. Her opponents are aware of her biological father being Anakin Skywalker, and they routinely accuse her of being a latter day Palpatine whenever she attacks vested interests. After 30-35 years since ROTJ, these attacks bounce off her.

Then the events of the film unfold. Captain Armitage Hux, a bellicose Republic Navy officer, pursues insurgents into the territory of the neo-Imperial state and discovers the identity of Kylo Ren: the son of Chancellor Organa. Senator Amilyn Holdo, who is outwardly a friend and ally of Leia's, is in league with Hux in seeking to conquer the neo-Imperial state. Holdo uses the information to bring Leia down and install herself as chancellor. This would be how Leia is shown to fall from power during the events of the film.

*

One issue that isn't related to the issue of grafting aspects of the OT and PT onto the ST is what effect Leia and Han's only child being a villain (a particularly repulsive one at that) has on perceptions of them. It does make their relationship seem like a total failure that arguably shouldn't have happened. If they had even just one other child, this perception could have been mitigated. If there were another "Skywalker" of the ST's younger generation, there might be less weight placed on Kylo as the final, failed conclusion of the family line.

 

The Knights of Ren. It's not good enough to make them Sith 2.0, they need to stand out on their own. There needs to be a sense of what they are and what they believe, and why that puts them in conflict with the Jedi and the Republic, and why they allied with the First Order. And if that's too tall an order, at the very least make each of them distinct characters rather than Kylo's entourage of faceless elite mooks.

 

Having Luke missing from the beginning of TFA really set things off on the wrong foot. He should have established his Academy without it being burned down. He needed that legacy aspect, and we needed a hook to care about. Introduce new characters but keep the heart and soul, which was missing.

 

The Force Awakens
Rey is not from a sand planet.

It's explained in brief dialog how the First Order channelled all its funding into Starkiller Base, the secret center of the First Order's forces. Starkiller being a planet is revealed dramatically after the speech scene.

No rathtar scene.

During Han's storytime about Luke and his students, Han mentions Snoke, and Rey asks who he is. Han explains that nobody knows. Just another bad apple that crept out of the shadows after the fall of the Emperor led to a power vacuum until Snoke asserted dominance.

Kylo Ren kills Han at the end of Act 2, in the forest outside Maz's castle when he takes Rey. Leia shares some final words with Han.

Poe is the only pilot capable of flying into Starkiller base at lightspeed.

Chewie heroically sacrifices himself in the Falcon to destroy the weapon portion of Starkiller Base,. The Base itself, and the planet, are not destroyed.

The Last Jedi

There's no Rose. Instead, its Poe's close squad-mates who are killed in the opening battle, all the faces we saw at the end of TFA. He feels guilty and agree about it. There's no Holdo.

Poe goes with Finn to Canto Bite after being stripped of his wings by Leia. Poe and Finn are at odds about how to handle a group of FO troopers, with Finn wanting to take a more peaceful route, given his past as a stormtrooper. They actually meet the master codebreaker, instead of coincidentally meeting another.

 

I always thought Han Solo's death needed a final "bada**" moment.

Check it out: Han is stabbed by his son. He still tenderly touches Ben's face. Then, he give his classic lopsided grin and Kylo's eyes widen. The camera pans down to Han's other hand. He is holding the detonator and he sets off all the explosives before falling to his death.

 

So after doing some more reading and rewatching this movie, it's clear GLs vision was to have a hermit Luke disinterested in his old Jedi beliefs. I think it hits the audience as a shock, but still feels like Luke has been through something and is looking for meditation on the first Jedi temple for answers. I would say most fans would understand this given the betrayal that took place.
However having Luke turn on Kylo instead of just confronting him or having a scene catching him train with Snoke, it leaves a bad taste in our mouths. Then we have Luke refusing to properly train Rey (as we know she needs training to warrant what Disney has in store with her powers) then Luke refuses to join her and Chewy after his friend Han had been killed, Leia is in a coma and his nephew is on a dark side rampage, then that leaves us fans even more stunned and confused where I believe by the third act or so having R2D2 show the hologram and Rey being so encouraging, we should have had a scene with Luke lifting his X-Wing out of the ocean and follow the Falcon to face the First Order. The feedback to the film would have been immensely different.
That being said, Rian Johnson was handed this situation and as much as I didn't agree with some of these scenes (overly used comic lines, slow speed space chase, the whole Canto Bight scene) he really did try to put each character in a dark situation which needed growth for them to complete.

Things to change (only did this for TPM and TLJ):
1. Do we need Luke blue milking?
2.No Leia floating in space -have her use the Force to talk to Ben.
3. No low speed chase -have the First Order track the Resistance to catch them at the end (use bounty hunters or Knights of Ren to do this.
4. No resistance members tried to leave the group
5. Rey to properly train with Luke - she then feels her friends in trouble at the end. Uses the beacon to find them on Snokes ship. R2D2 helps Luke change mind, have him lift his X-Wing out of the ocean and head to Crait to prepare for showdown.
6. No Canto Bight- no point to story, bad aliens in the ST still, how would Finn and Rose be able to even pay the codebreaker?? (Have Maz help them in a different way).
7. Show flashback of Luke training the 12 students +Ben (some are KOR). He then catches Ben practicing dark side and talking to Snoke. This sets off a battle which the KOR destroy the academy.
8. Recast the Resistance members (tough to look at) 9. No shirtless Ben
10. Have Rose as codebreaker and Finn sneak onto Snokes ship and use the beacon to meet Rey there after she battles the guards/Kylo.
11. No ironing clothes comedy scene
12. Treatment of the droids (R2&C3PO), Poe telling 3PO to shutup is just bad to me.
13. No BB8 driving an AT-ST in hangar, just have Rey save them...they are both on the same ship!!
14. Have Finn and Rose just land the darn shuttle with no overly dramatic landing.
15. No Rose kamikazing Finns speeder
16. Just a few Porgs on Falcon, not so overly done
17. Have Luke Force project himself to stall time for the Resistance, but have him waiting inside, in the flesh, to sacrifice himself to Kylo at the end. Would've changed the whole perception for the better.

 

A plan for three connected movies.

What a concept.

 

On a fundamental level it's clear they didn't know what story they wanted to tell. On its own, the OT tells the journey of Luke Skywalker and his journey of self discovery through training to become a Jedi and redeeming his father. With the PT, the overall story is recontextualized into one that's a intergenerational soap opera primarily revolving around Anakin - his rise, fall, and his redemption through his killing of the Emperor and his children's actions. This takes place against the political backdrop - the story of how a democratic government slides into autocracy.

Even though the ST takes place in-universe after the OT, I think it's important to recognize how the ST is actually really a follow up to the PT in many ways. The PT builds on the story of the OT, and the ST should have built on the story of both the OT and the PT. How would an ST build on/re-contextualize this story the way the PT did to the OT? I'd argue there were several thematic threads they could have pursued. The PT introduces a lot of new concepts into the lore that aren't necessarily directly addressed in the OT, but could have been more explicitly explored and resolved in the ST:

-Balance of the force. what does it mean to achieve a lasting balance? What does Anakin getting rid of the sith mean for the force?
-The political side: How do you build a strong, fair, lasting government for the galaxy after the fall of the Empire? How do you avoid the mistakes shown in the PT under the old republic?
-How does Luke's new generation of Jedi differ from the PT one? What lessons have been learned and what challenges come with applying those lessons to a new generation?
-The dark side and force ghosts. Palpatine opens a can of worms with his opera scene monologue about the Sith trying to extend life. What does he mean? The PT also reveals new info on FGs - what's the deal with them? What can they do and what would a sith trying to live forever in this same way look like?

Idk to me it seems like LFL didn't really ask themselves these questions until they got to IX and then decided to just tack Palpatine onto the ST for the sake of achieving this kinda unity between all 3 trilogies.