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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

ST The ST: What Would You Change/Revise?

Discussion in 'Sequel Trilogy' started by EzraSnoke, Dec 27, 2017.

  1. Daxon101

    Daxon101 Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jan 7, 2016
    In that respect it shouldn't have been a sequel trilogy at all.

    A sequel trilogy should have been a next step to the family story. even if new characters were added.
     
    Last edited: May 21, 2021
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  2. Something big like the Prequels Villains are not Sith
     
  3. godisawesome

    godisawesome Skywalker Saga Undersheriff star 6 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Dec 14, 2010
    In other words, the best sequel to the OT features a Skywalker as the new lead, and has a conflict that is somehow the fallout of the OT... so something like Rey Solo/Skywalker dealing with a brother/cousin in Kylo that’s succumbed to the legacy of Vader.

    Not doing that puts the two stories at cross purposes - the family story undermining the new heroes, and the new heroes undermining the family story.
     
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  4. a conflict like The Clone Wars or Mandalorian Wars not Sith around
     
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  5. Pro Scoundrel

    Pro Scoundrel New Films Expert At Modding Casual star 6 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Nov 20, 2012
    This is the most succinctly that you've made this point. Bravo. :)
     
  6. Darth PJ

    Darth PJ Force Ghost star 6

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    Jul 31, 2013
    I’d always defer to what Lucas’ intentions were for the ST, but failing that, yes, I totally agree I.e. something unconnected to the Sith, but maybe has connective tissue e.g. the 2nd Clone War, Mandalorian unification, Nightsisters etc. etc.
     
  7. sian1965

    sian1965 Jedi Knight star 4

    Registered:
    Apr 26, 2020
    I think that I would have 'reversed' the idea of 'good rebels', 'bad rulers' which they did in the OT. Have Han dying saving Kylo instead of the other way around, and made Rey and Finn more 'edgy' and less humorous. And have both opposing sides less black and white, and more shades of grey.
     
    Last edited: Jun 2, 2021
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  8. The Regular Mustache

    The Regular Mustache Force Ghost star 6

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    Dec 22, 2015
    I don’t care if it would’ve been too similar to the PT and OT, I’d rather that we got a trilogy that included a new, thriving Jedi Order, Rey being Luke’s daughter and Ben Solo being a good guy who was starting to fall to the dark side. Oh plus no Empire 2.0 and Palpatine. That could’ve still been fun!
     
  9. godisawesome

    godisawesome Skywalker Saga Undersheriff star 6 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Dec 14, 2010
    That actually was effectively what TFA had - the First Order was a smaller rogue state on the fringes of the Galaxy using a WMD as a terrorist weapon against the still positive New Republic.

    Then LFL wanted to double down on the OT stuff, so you get “The First Order Reigns” in TFA.
    I actually think that might have been awesome, but pulling it off would be tricky, and there are limits.

    The Dark Side would always just be evil - “gray” antagonists in that case would have to be struggling between the light side and the dark side, not actually adherents of it, and any time they gave into the dark side, it would have to be evil. And I really don’t think any pseudo-Imperial side could be portrayed as grey without a similar approach.

    And once any genocide entered the picture, that faction is the villains, with no grey side at all.

    Still, a Galaxy with numerous successor states to the Empire, where, say, Luke’s Jedi Order is torn between different loyalities, which gets aggravated by some of his students dark side dabbling, could work.
     
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  10. dagenspear

    dagenspear Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Sep 9, 2015
    Is that that similar to the OT/PT?
     
  11. darthfettus2015

    darthfettus2015 Jedi Master star 4

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    Nov 15, 2012
    id have had more visible ghosts. Luke and Leia having visions of Padme. ghosts of Anakin and obi wan involved and my number one thing..reveal that not just Palps was behind the star wars but created the skywalkers as his experiments in cheating death. id have had flashbacks with young Ben.. like we saw in Rogue one, despite it altering the star wars blueprint some what. As most know I like what we got, but like anything can be improved.. tho for me Rogue one and Empire are almost perfect
    oh more knights of Ren, a proper flashback scene of the temple destruction and id have Luke walking away from the sabre not throwing it
     
    Last edited: Jun 7, 2021
  12. The Regular Mustache

    The Regular Mustache Force Ghost star 6

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    Dec 22, 2015
    Well if Ben Solo started out as a good guy who was corrupted by a seemingly helpful but secretly evil mentor I could see people complaining that that would be too similar to Anankin and his relationship with Senator Palpatine. Plus if Rey was Luke's kid and she and Ben were close then people would complain that their story would be too similar to the dynamic between Obi-Wan and Anakin. Then on top of that people would say that Rey is just Luke 2.0 and Ben was Anakin/Vader 2.0 but hey they're saying that anyway!!!

    All that said just because something is familiar doesn't mean that it's inherently bad. I would've preferred the above mentioned to what we ended up with.

    Also they really shouldn't have worried so much about Luke overshadowing the ST. It wouldn't have been that hard to introduce a threat that was attacking the good guys on multiple fronts. You could have Luke and couple of the new Jedi busy fighting on one front and then Rey and a some of the other Jedi fighting on a second front and then you throw in the story of Ben Solo slowly being manipulated.
     
  13. ewoksimon

    ewoksimon Chosen One star 5

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    Oct 26, 2009
  14. Darth PJ

    Darth PJ Force Ghost star 6

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    Jul 31, 2013
    I think they could have easily done a Ben Solo story, where he starts as a good guy, but goes dark directly due to his own actions. The derivative nature of what's in the films, as they exist today, is that he gets seduced to the darkside by an Emperor type figure, whose heading up a very Empire type organisation etc. It's almost literally replicating what was in the OT. I mean, they could have just flipped the story and had a Ben Solo story where there's no evil mentor, but he's drawn to the cult of the Sith after finding out he was Darth Vader's grandkid. Or they could have just had Rey on a quest to resurrect her grandfather... and have her as the Sith incarnate, with Ben as the 'hero'. At least that would have made a bit more sense.
     
  15. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Personally I don’t think the ST was similar enough to the OT or PT. I don’t know if they wrongly thought that greater thematic similarities would not have resonated with Gen Z (which is an incorrect assumption, the Lucas Star Wars themes are timeless, but that’s what I have been told here by some ST fans) or they wanted to be different for the hell of it, but what we got looks almost like they were trying to replicate the OT but without the elements that make it work.

    For Ben Solo we should have either seen a past tragedy that led him to joining Snoke—being kidnapped and brainwashed by him, or losing a family member—he could believe cousin Rey was dead and that could lead him to going to Snoke for power. Similar to Anakin but that would work much better than the “he fell because he didn’t like having working parents and not being told that Grandpa was Vader—but you are still supposed to blame the OT3 for that” that we got.

    And TFA should have been about Ben Solo’s descent to the Dark Side and the story behind it. The argument could be made that the ST was supposed to be about Rey—but it really wasn’t anyway, not when it was about Rey trying to stop Kylo from abusing her and trying to fix him.

    …which is another element of the story that could be included and could work if Rey was reaching out to her cousin.

    We should have seen the new, thriving Jedi Order—cut down by Kylo at the end of TFA.

    Finn should have had his awakening at the end of TFA and then led a stormtrooper rebellion in TLJ and TROS.

    I would have had Han reach out to Kylo and get murdered for it early in TLJ but that could be pushed to the end of TFA if Harrison only wanted to do one movie.

    Kylo would leave the mask on until he turned back to the light side, to put an end to the “he’s so conflicted look at his face” commentary and out the focus back on his victims.

    Rey would be Luke’s daughter, kidnapped and believed dead. She would be trying to scrap a living on Jakku where her kidnappers dropped her, thinking she would not survive, but none of the “I have to stay here because someone is coming back for me”. She escapes as soon as she finds a way to get to the Resistance. Poe and/or Finn landing on Jakku and discovering that the First Order wants BB-8 provides her with that.

    Luke is still sulking on an island but is re-energized when he discovers his daughter is still alive.

    Snoke is Gallius Rax, and is killed at the end of TROS. No returning Palpatine, just a band of neo-Imperials thinking they can reboot the Empire.

    Kylo is redeemed through the combined efforts of his parents, uncle and cousin.
     
  16. The Regular Mustache

    The Regular Mustache Force Ghost star 6

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    Dec 22, 2015
    Not showing Ben’s tragic fall seemed like a massive missed opportunity.
     
  17. KyloLukeLeia

    KyloLukeLeia Jedi Knight star 1

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    Sep 10, 2020
    I would have started off Episode 7 with Luke/Wife having 2 kids, and Han/Leia having 2 kids, and they would be the focus of 7,8,9. They could each have a different personality, and we could grow with those characters for 4 movies.

    The plot of the ST should have been what was laid out in the novel Bloodline. Supreme Chancellor Leia is outed as Darth Vader's daughter in the Senate, and the new republic splits in two. Who stays on Luke, Leia and Han's side, who opposes them? Just like the PT, there is a Phantom Menace Sith villain pulling all of the strings. The kids could play a pivotal role in finding the new Sith villain and keeping the Republic from splitting again. Again, I haven't even developed this story as I'm just thinking off the top of my head so there is room to change things.

    That way the 7,8,9 plot does not undo what our heroes accomplished in 1-6, as this is brand new threat. It still boggles my mind that Luke, Leia and Han did not have one scene together in the ST (obviously it was never going to happen after Carrie Fisher died). The Saga could have went on after Episode 9 as the Skywalker name is the golden goose of the Franchise. To essentially kill off that family in The Rise of Skywalker and ending that story is one of the dumbest decisions in the history of movies.
     
    Last edited: Jul 24, 2021
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  18. sian1965

    sian1965 Jedi Knight star 4

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    Apr 26, 2020
    Thing is, the 'dark side' is fear, anger and hatred - and those emotions, like it are not, are what makes us human. I liked how Luke at the end of ROTJ, learned to recognise and accept that we ALL have those feelings inside us .....but the Jedi strive to completely stifle them, whereas the Sith embrace them. Ultimately I always thought the 'way forward' was to accept our darker emotions, recognise them but not let them consume us.
    I know I'm 'bible bashing' here and I don't want to, but the comment by Christ when they were about to stone a woman for adultery always comes to mind...'he who is without sin cast the first stone.'

    As for the 'genocide' bit...I didn't see the point in that happening again - but I do remember my mum quietly telling me about the bombing of Dresden, and to quote Captain America in Winter Soldier, 'we did it so people could be free'.
    That was what I hoped I'd see in the ST....not villains who were textbook 'baddies' and heroes who were sometimes forced to make terrible choices.
     
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  19. godisawesome

    godisawesome Skywalker Saga Undersheriff star 6 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Dec 14, 2010
    Now this is more interesting, and I’ve got two branches of thoughts here:

    - With the Force… I’m actually very interested in the possibility to having a Jedi character potentially discover a philosophical truth that the selfless serenity of the Jedi *can* be achieved with emotions - to, as you put it, not let them “consume” the Jedi, but not deny them either. The Sith and the dark side being an unnaturally spiteful and destructive Force would still hold true, but that the light side can still exist even with the swirling maelstrom of passion. It’s a point the franchise has debated occasionally before, but one I think would be worth exploring… but I feel that maintaining what makes Star Wars special is that evil is acknowledged as something that must be fought, and that someone like Kylo is comsumed by the evil of the darkside.

    - With genocide… here’s the thing: it’s a matter of context and whether or not you want the story to treat evil as a moral truth that must be opposed. Star Wars media fully embraces the morally gray and pragmatic interpretation of war… but they also flat out acknowledge that evil is evil. Genocide is a taboo, vile thing in fiction because we’ve recognized in the real world it always goes beyond pragmatism into pure hatred, spite, and malice. Star Wars has thus generally occupied a kind of “Black and Grey” moral scale: the Empire, First Order, Sith, the Hutt Cartels are evil and must be stopped by human beings who can and will screw up and mess up… but who must still be lauded for opposing such vile forces.

    Like, the First Order has to be evil after destroying Hosnian Prime, and Kylo’s actions in TFA have to be evil and undefendable and inexcusable… but Finn struggling with fear, Rey struggling with denial, both taking time to take up the good fight, and the general fact that our good guys have to kill as part of the story adds in grey to the story naturally.
     
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  20. sian1965

    sian1965 Jedi Knight star 4

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    Apr 26, 2020
    Which is essentially Jaina/Jacen Solo from the EU novels, which Disney ignored.
     
  21. sian1965

    sian1965 Jedi Knight star 4

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    Apr 26, 2020
    Hosnian Prime should not have happened. Kylo killing Han should not have happened. The former was JJ ripping off ANH. The latter was JJ essentially destroying the last Skywalker so he could replace him with Rey....who was just a Luke rip off.
    As for Rey 'struggling' ....she didn't. Not how Luke did. No one ever really questioned her 'darker' aspects; she was a very flawed person but by TROS was forgiven for all her 'sins', and presented as an almost godlike being of pure goodness. She ceased being the relatable character she was in TFA. Even the novel says that....Ben Solo was happy dying as he was 'giving Rey back to the galaxy'...ugh.
    As a woman she has none of the qualities I wanted to see in a leading lady...she was ultimately depicted as a morally perfect human being.Everyone - EVERYONE adored her. She could do no wrong.

    Disappointing.
     
  22. dagenspear

    dagenspear Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 9, 2015
    I think acceptance that you have bad emotions is a part of rejecting them. I think the Holy Bible essentially tells that, that only by admitting your sins, can you ask for forgiveness of them and be forgiven.

    Nowhere in the prequels did the jedi teach to ignore emotions though.
     
  23. dagenspear

    dagenspear Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 9, 2015
    Kylo didn't have to be the last Skywalker. Rey could have been a Skywalker. That problem solved. TLJ didn't do that.
    She wasn't presented that way, by TROS. I think TROS has her be more flawed than TLJ did.
    She wasn't adored by everyone. Poe was shown to butt heads with her, I think, more than once.
     
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  24. SHAD0W-JEDI

    SHAD0W-JEDI Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    May 20, 2002
    I've commented on this Thread before - will try not to be repetitious.

    (1) I'd have a thriving, vibrant Jedi Order, founded by Luke. Powerful, formidable, confident, cool, and fun. Not as angsty or troubled as in the Prequels. And that's not a dig at the Prequels - those times WERE dark and troubled.
    (2) A threat that didn't make the OT seem somewhat pointless. Even if a resurgent Sith were somehow involved, make it clear that the events of ANH, ESB, and ROTJ accomplished a LOT. In other words, no Empire 2.0, no return of Palpatine.
    (3) Fun and affectionate appearances by Han, Leia, Luke, etc. Their lives don;t have to be perfect, they can face dangers and challenges (although I'd be totally happy with them in more mentoring roles, with new characters tied to them doing the bulk of what needs doing!).
    (4) While temptation and the lure of the Dark Side will probably always be an element of the SW universe and Force users, I wouldn't have the "can he be redeemed" storyline, or "is he going to fall to the Dark Side" storyline, already so well explored in the Prequels and Classic Trilogies, be central here.
     
  25. Daxon101

    Daxon101 Force Ghost star 6

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    Jan 7, 2016
    Thats just replicating the OT style bickering that went on. really there was no reason for Poe and Rey to butt heads.
     
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