JCC Arena The Theist/Atheist Thunderdome™

U serious?

 

yeah man totally. someone wrote this down so we know it's true.

 

JSLCATGOT

 

That's not true, really.

"Hey, Thor -- want to see a neat trick? Here's some water into wine... drink up, buddy! All you want!"
"Thor likes this!" /smashes glass "MORE!"

 

If Jesus never claimed to be God, then why did the Sanhedrin and Romans kill him? For saying "love your neighbor" or "bless those who persecute you"? No...they wanted Him dead because He didn't claim to be a good moral teacher or inspirational figure. He told them directly, "If you believed Abraham, you would believe Me, for he wrote of Me...before Abraham was born, I AM!" That was a direct reference to God telling Moses His name in Exodus 3:14.

 

My point is that while many people claim to be God, if Jesus really rose from the dead, then He really is. The fact that the Sanhedrin never even denied the tomb was empty lends some credence to that miracle.

 

The Clippers don't deny that Blake Griffin beat the crap out of Justin Bieber at a Starbucks either, but people generally don't believe that story either, coming from a satire site...

 

And beyond the Bible, what other sources are there that can confirm these facts?

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What? No, for the same reason the CIA had the Bolivians kill Che Guevara.

Sometimes a charismatic radical socialist (like Che or Jesus) with ideas that threaten the status quo are executed because they're radicals who threaten the status quo.

Jesus was a threat to Roman authority, and if you think about it the Romans have gained mightily from letting the myth perpetuate that they all along tried to save him. You know, the Roman Catholic Church.

For starters, that proves nothing. You have taken a conclusion you formed and worked backwards. It's just as likely that his followers reclaimed and moved the body, or grave robbers took it. If indeed the tomb was empty.

 

Or if indeed there was really a tomb for a radical rabbi that may or may have not been crucified over 2,000 years ago. Again, beyond the heavily edited storybook, what other sources can attest to these so called "facts"?

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I wouldn't harbour any illusions, Moviefan2k4. These guys are pretty similar in terms of "reasons they died":

 

True, but the question is why Jesus was perceived as a threat by the Romans or Sanhedrin. The only possibility to that is His claims of divinity, which were considered blasphemous by both parties.

The tomb was definitely empty, but the question is how it got that way. First-century Jewish tombs were sealed with boulders that weighed several tons, rolled into place on stone tracks. It would've taken much more than 11 men to move one, let alone without waking up sleeping Romans guards. Second, guards who fell asleep on duty were executed in Rome, but those who watched over Jesus' tomb weren't. Thirdly, if you're asleep during an event in your life...how do you know what happened after you woke up? All the guards said the disciples stole the body, which makes zero sense from any historical or scientific standpoint. There's only three options about Jesus' claims of divinity: He was lying, crazy, or honest. No one in their right mind would allow themselves to be murdered over something they know isn't true, and if Jesus was crazy, no one would've believed Him anyway...but thousands did outside the Apostles, and they formed the early Christian church. So, the only option left is He told the truth...and the absence of His body for almost 2,000 years is evidence.

 

OK, so was Che Guevara a modern, post-WWII incarnation of Christ Moviefan2k4?

 

An absent body and a body that never existed look exactly the same, FWIW.

 

Bacchus, shown here in a sculpture by Michelangelo.





Or the more cheery, possibly homosexual one, by Disney.

 

Moviefan2k4

 

100 bucks on him saying it can't be proven because it can't be true

 

He dug himself out with his hands!

 

According to what source other than the Bible? It's just that if one intends to prove the claim made in the Bible, one needs to look to other sources than the Bible itself - that is to say, independent corroboration. And bear in mind that it must be corroboration of that particular fact, not corroboration in the sense of "The Bible says the world was created by God, the world exists, therefore the Bible's account of how the world was created must be correct." For this exercise it will not do to point out that Pontius Pilate existed and that the Bible mentions him is proof of every other claim the Bible makes is correct. Nor is it sufficient to assert that Caesar Augustus conducted a census that the Bible mentions and that therefore the remainder of the Bible is therefore correct.

...except those occupying the fourth category that you haven't mentioned: honest but mistaken. See also "crazy".

 

And a fifth option: it was just the author making stuff up, as all fictional writers do.

 

I think Saintheart reposited the question I've asked twice already Moviefan2k4: what other sources outside of the Bible do you have to prove the historical existence of Jesus, the Cruxificion, the Resurrection, etc.? Name them. Bring them forth. Show us your findings. Be wary of Josephus' though; his writings are bound to throw you for a loop and are disputed by many to be actual true references to a historical Jesus. Funny that a first century Jewish historian (traitor though he may be deemed) or other sources outside of the Bible couldn't be bothered to make lenghty, clear references about such a significant Galilean rabbi or even more significant events such as the Cruxificion and what followed.

If your answer is "The Bible holds the ultimate truth, I need no other source" then you fail. Because not one book - especially one as heavily edited as the Bible by old men who lived before and beyond the supposed span of time of Jesus' lifetime, determined to forge it into an instrument to validate their particular beliefs - or even any one man holds the ultimate truth. You have to look a bit farther than that and even then you may never find such ultimate truth.

 

God's 12 biggest **** moves in the Old testament

 

My my, the Good Lord could certainly turn into a petty, murderously psychotic SOB when he had one too many, wasn't he?

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I especially like the bit where God can't beat Jacob in a wrestling match.