ST The TLJ constructive catch-all analysis and debate thread

Right, I OK'd this with Darth Chiznuk so hopefully this title and wording is OK.

I don't know about you, but I'm keen to discuss the themes, characters, plot and potential future hooks raised by TLJ in a constructive manner. What I have zero interest in is discussing this with people who flat out hate the film or have no interest in any kind of constructive criticism or debate.

It's 100% fine to hate this film, but life is too short to waste arguing against a metaphorical brick wall, and neither side will ever change their minds or opinions. So the rules in this thread are:

We can discuss any of aforementioned elements: plot, theme, symbolism, how it ties in to other films (SW or otherwise) and other material within the canon. We can drop articles in here. Criticism and difference of opinion is welcome, but should as much as possible be constructive.

If you're here to slate, snark. moan, rant, organise a petition or flame, please take advantage of one of the countless other threads where those activities are ongoing. Likewise, I'm not interested in discussion about ratings, box office or critics. It's purely about the content and the text.

We'll see who is interested (seriously, if you're not - you don't even need to tell us, just move on) and then see what crops up and where the discussion leads. Hopefully it'll be fun.

 

There is a thread like this here but I can’t remember the users name.. Can we merge it to here?

Edit: This One.

http://boards.theforce.net/threads/...hy-and-inspirations-of-episode-viii.50047283/

Would be a shame for this to fall into the void.

 

Very happy to do so, although I would suggest we make the ground rules clear.

 

The Last Greedo?

 

Still no Rodians or Twileks!

 

I freakin' LOVE the movie, its FANTASTIC. Im staying on this thread.

My history - been obsessed with SW since I saw ANH as an 8 year old kid in 1977. Hate the prequels, LOVE TFA and RO, Empire is my favorite and I cant WAIT for Solo!

That out the way. Lets kick this off.

The Leia scene - I don't mind it. Its my least favorite scene, but they wanted to show off Leia's strength with the force, but It could have been done better. That scene was done when Ren took his finger off the trigger - leave it at that as it was a powerful scene. Or that could have been her death scene (and Ren goes nuts at the Tie Fighter pilot who killed his mother - making him even more of a conflicted character), but Im glad it wasn't. They could have showed off her powers in other ways.

There, that's my only (very minor gripe) with TLJ.

Canto Bight - oh the hate. LOL. My theory - it is a major location in Solo. That coupled with the whole lot of references to the dice (they were the ones Han won the Falcon with) - hint at this being a tie in with the next anthology movie. Han was a big gambler you know. I wonder if he meets Lando there?

 

I still need to write a proper text with my analysis of TLJ. I feel there are a lot of things to say, a lot of small details, life lessons, meanings and such.

For now, I will only drop a link to a video where some of the subversive aspects of TLJ are mentioned:

 

Hmm, interesting, yeah I guess Canto Bight could be in Solo. At least as a mention. The dice, definitely.

The Leia thing... I liked it. I think it was unexpected and quite ethereal, and I like that it was an instinctive thing. Plus Williams nailed it there. I can see why some think it's goofy, but to me, she's never flying, she's pulling herself through space, Anyway, i like the lyricism of it, it that's the right word. The best bit of it (other than seeing Leia use the Force) was the great bit of foreshadowing that shows Leia smash through the hologram of the Supremacy in exactly the place Holdo slices through. Very smart.

There is a lot of foreshadowing, echoing and mirroring throughout the movie. On first watch I thought it was disjointed in parts. On second watch I felt I had been mistaken and the writing is way tighter than I had noticed. Could you tighten it on the Resistance cruiser and CB? Maaaaybe... But I think you'd lose a lot if you did. One thing I would change is JGL's alien voice. Maybe its me and it's a nitpick, but I'm never a huge fan of those goofy human voices for aliens.

Anyway, back to the mirroring, I like that Finn and Rose also go on a similar arc to Rey in some ways. Rey is seeking the one man who can help the Resistance, only for things to not go to plan and finds herself having to trust an untrustworthy man who betrays her. Finn and Rose have the same seeking out the Master Codebreaker, only to have to rely on DJ. It's a fun parallel even if the experiences are very different.

 

Never mind. I thought this was an analysis thread on the film.

 

Good idea Satipo! It’s been quite depressing on here, what with the server problems and the constant whinging and trolling.

Right, for me some of the major themes are about failure, letting the past go and the fact that anybody has the potential to be special; you don’t need to be born into privilege, or be part of a dynasty.

Failure plays a big part in this film. Even the slightly maligned sub-plot of Canto Bight underscores this. Finn and Rose are ultimately unsuccessful but as a result of this doomed mission, Finn embraces being a ‘Rebel Scum’.

More obviously, Luke failed as a teacher. But he learned that failure can be the greatest teacher. It taught him that despite his failure his legend still lives on and that he can still inspire. His showdown with Kylo is suitably epic and his death is poignant and beautiful. Safe in the knowledge that a new hope has entered the galaxy and while there is hope the darkness will never win.

I loved the Rey Random reveal. It wasn’t bombastic, it was understated. Kylo showing his snobbery of being of Skywalker blood dismissively puts down Rey as a nobody, as someone who isn’t part of the story. But of course, Rey is. She is the start of a new breed of Jedi.

I really do love this film. Every new Star Wars film of this new era I’ve enjoyed and loved. But I’ve always felt it was third best; TFA was third best. Then Rogue One became third best. Because as much as I enjoyed them they still couldn’t match ANH and Empire. With this one? My honest immediate reaction was I need to process this. I knew I enjoyed it but I really didn’t know what to think overall. By the time I got home I was already falling in love with the film. The second viewing cemented it. And it’s the first time I’ve actually felt it belongs alongside the venerable episodes IV and V.

In a year’s time? That’s the real test. That it’s even what I feel now is testament to the depth of this film, the themes and risks that it takes.


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Oh, it is, I just wasn't sure how to merge threads that's all.

yassir.khan - totally agree. And I love that Poe's arc also deals heavily with failure. Actually all the characters do - even Hux, and even Kylo (who is reeling from his failure in the Forest). It's how you bounce back. Do you double down and suffer or accept your mistake and learn from it.

There is also a nice subversion of the usual kind of suicide mission heroics, which seems to be tied into the notion of hubris and characters believing their own hype.

The Other mirror that's fun is Poe stalling Hux at the start so the Resistance can escape, vs Luke stalling the FO so the Rebels can escape. And it's not just a mirror, it's showing how Poe has grown, while reaffirming a couple of themes - the danger of hubris, and the danger of destroying what you hate vs saving what you love. I honestly think this is by far the richest SW film in terms of what's going on under the hood.

 

Satipo what type of analysis will exactly be happening? I am truly interested.

 

Despite my own negative opinion of the movie overall, I REALLY loved the "Luke Lesson 1" scene where he explained the Force and how the Jedi were vain to think it only belonged to them. I was hoping for more of that. Ghost Luke in IX, maybe?

 

Several years back we spoke of Luke as The fisher king. Thought this movie embraced that theme really well.

 

Anything. We'll see what catches people's interest and where the conversation flows. If anyone has any ideas, fire away. It may take a little time to settle into a rhythm but hopefully we'll get there.

100%. Quite literally. And I think I saw that RJ mentioned that too. For me, while I can see it's not to everyone's taste, I love the Arthurian nod it brings, and I also like that it allows us to delve into the Return stage of the hero's journey which we've never got to before. I love that you really have three stages of a hero's journey going on in this main triangle - Luke a the old hero, now stuck on the Return. Rey on her own hero's journey. And Kylo on an inverse hero's journey, set on becoming the villain. With all three arcs informing the other, I think it's some of the smartest writing in the saga to date.

Here's a question.

Do we think Kylo was ever going to turn? Or was he manipulating Rey all along? Did he always know what he'd do, or did he wobble?

Yeah, that was a good lesson. I thought it really nailed the force and it was nice to see humour from Luke. Personally I'm really hoping for more ghost Luke in 9, Given his parting shots to Kylo, I would say there is a very strong chance we'll see more of him.

 

I don’t think he was ever going to turn. I think Kylo was always thinking of what is best for him. I LOVED his quiet, pleading ‘please’ to Rey when he asked her to join him.

That whole scene is just next level.


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Yeah, that was my impression as well. I don't think he was ever turning. He was incredible in that scene. I think they cast him so well. Not only is he an amazing actor but he sometimes as a real Ford vibe to me - when he plays it softer.

I think one of the reasons that the Snoke scene threw me the first time was that I didn't really appreciate that's not the main twist, that's just set up for the Kylo one-two punch about to follow it up. Not just Kylo staying dark, but then hitting the parentage reveal whilst mirror-flipping the ESB twist on its head. Again, really smart writing that I was a step behind on first watch.

Darth Chiznuk - good points. And I think that is spot on. For me, what the ST is doing is tying all the trilogies together. And balance is a key part, as is making explicit the failures of the PT Jedi and tying them to the rebirth of the new Jedi.

 

How about we analysis the relationship that Paige and Rose and why it's small part in the film; is what actually gives us the trajectory of the film as a whole. Poe begins with calling in the entire bombing brigade but doing so cripples the Resistance Air Force. But because of Paige's heroic act and her relationship to her sister. Rose embodies the resistance.

In the novel "Bomber Command" - It states "Nothing is more important than my little sister Rose" (page 4) and we see that connection by the necklaces they share. But how his ties into the overall plot is the sisters were refugees after the First Order decimated there planet, inspiring them to fight for the Resistance. The necklaces are keepsakes from the Otomork System. Which was blown up. There story is of hope and the undying love for each other, there connection is a ying/yang type of thing. But because of there relationship and there overwhelming passion to help defeat the First Order. They show the fight is not over, that the war has truly just begun and that no matter how many lives it takes, or years. Heroes will still find a way and hope will remain.

Is this something to think about??

 

Mark Kermode, a very respected British critic said much the same thing about balance.


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There are many things that I would love to discuss, but I definitely need a 2nd viewing.

But one thing in particular for me are the shadows that Rey saw behind the mirror / crystal in that dark cave; and which form part of my basis for my Rey Solo belief. I realise that this is not the Rey thread and I'm not looking at talking about Rey or her parentage (well, only to a limited extent), but were the shadows a "Harry Potter (The Philosopher Stone) moment" where the mirror was showing Rey what she wanted to see. Or does the mirror / crystal actually show Rey the truth, yet still conceals it from the audience so that it leads into 9.

I'm just curious at RJ's direction on this because to show the shadows of a tall man and a much shorter woman with a hair-do like Leia's, regardless of what he says about "she's a nobody", it continues to stoke the flames for parentage discussion and leaves the door open for JJ for a few different directions.

 

Personally I think it shows the truth. And the reason I say this is that the actual answer is one Rey already knows but has buried deep down. It's her that says they were nobodies, not Kylo, he just twists the knife with the details to make her need him more. I'm sure though that we were meant to think it might be Han and Leia.

Re Rose and Paige - I think there is several things going on there. One is making us care for Rose when we see her grieving (but then also investing in her when we see her steel, and motivation). I think another is showing the heroism of the Resistance but also the cost of reckless heroism and the hubristic obsession with destroying what we hate. And yes, Rose and Paige were just ordinary people. Rose especially goes from people who works behind pipes to becoming a Resistance hero and becoming the angel on Finn's shoulder to DJ's devil. Angels and Devils are another motif we see.

 

The way I use Rose and Paige is that the way they joined the cause; there system was destroyed and decided to take up the fight; we continually see this with Resistance fighters; Poe Dameron leaves the Republic fleet to join the Resistance, Rey leaves Jakku to help Finn, and then finds her higher calling all of which is giving into the theme that the "Last Jedi' projects " Hope is never dead, until the last bit of hope is destroyed.

 

Yeah. The spark stuff is really great I think.