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Senate The US Politics discussion

Discussion in 'Community' started by Ghost, Dec 6, 2012.

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  1. Vaderize03

    Vaderize03 Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Oct 25, 1999
    And also only 0.2% of all abortion procedures annually.

    Ending a late-term pregnancy is an extremely rare occurrence, one which requires the involvement of comprehensive team of physicians and nurses. The anti-abortion movement's disinformation campaign to paint "all abortion" as "late-term" is not only false, it's easily disproved by looking at the facts. So here are a few for general consumption:

    1) When a late-term pregnancy goes into distress, every attempt is made to deliver the fetus and save both lives. I cannot stress this point enough. It is a violation of medical ethics to simply terminate in the 3rd-trimester because "mom says so." It just doesn't happen, which leads me to...

    2) Most hospitals in the US aren't equipped to performed late-term abortions, either in regards to equipment or personnel either willing or trained to do the procedure. When you get death threats for providing a medical service, most people stop providing that service. Also, many residency programs refuse to train future obstetricians in the procedure, either out of fear of litigation or due to state laws, which lead us to....

    3) Many hospital by-laws prevent the performing of abortions at any stage within their facilities, necessitating transfer to another facility--sometimes out-of-state--when such emergencies arise. Doing so has, and continues to, cost lives. The hospital where I practice does not allow any abortion procedures to be performed under penalty of dismissal from the medical staff; when a woman arrives with an obstetrics emergency in the ED, she usually gets transferred. And when time is of the essence, that's not good for anybody.

    ***

    I hope this provides some perspective. If you'd like to discuss the points I've presented, I'm happy to debate with you. I have no interest, however, in emotionally-charged rhetoric that lacks any basis in fact.

    I also lack any interest in you coming back at me with "BUT DR. GOSNELL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! HE'S EVERY ABORTIONIST!!!!!". He was very much an aberration who was reported to the state board of medicine multiple times by numerous Philadelphia physicians and his misdeeds were referred to Harrisburg for years, but the Rendell administration declined to prosecute him. When Tom Corbett become governor, he put this charlatan away. It should've been done years earlier, but that has nothing to do with the points I've stated.
     
  2. appleseed

    appleseed Chosen One star 5

    Registered:
    Dec 5, 2002
    I hate it when that happens.
     
  3. SuperWatto

    SuperWatto Manager Emeritus star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Sep 19, 2000
    Hmm... it looks like someone just got owned here.
     
  4. Vaderize03

    Vaderize03 Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Oct 25, 1999
    Love me some good ownage!
     
  5. Jedi Merkurian

    Jedi Merkurian New Films Thread Reaper and Rumor Nay-Sayer star 7 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    May 25, 2000
  6. SW Saga Fan

    SW Saga Fan Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Apr 19, 2015
    Alec Baldwin calls to overthrow the republicans:

     
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  7. Vaderize03

    Vaderize03 Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Oct 25, 1999
    Last edited: Oct 15, 2018
  8. MrZAP

    MrZAP Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Jun 2, 2007
    Okay, this is going to come off badly, but please try to hear me out because I earnestly believe this.

    I'll be honest; I don't get this. Who cares? Why do we care? Why do we have to worry about a quasi-parasitic potential human being that is in so many way a non-entity? I don't care if it's got a heartbeat. I don't care if it can hear outside the womb. I don't care if it has genitals, I don't care, it's not alive. I spend so much of my energy worrying about the currently living. I hate death; everyone who's a regular here knows that. I'm a proud transhumanist, and I don't want anyone to die... ever. But my empathy stops at the currently alive. It has to. Why can't we abort 8 months and 29 or 30 days in? I don't care if it could survive outside the womb with help. A line has to be drawn somewhere, and drawn clearly. This fuzzy this trimester or that trimester or this week or this month or it depends on the fetus is too much! Birth is a clear and obvious delineation. We don't count age before then; why should it matter (hell I could make an argument for early infancy not mattering either but even I won't go that far because it just gets murky again and less defensible)? It's not like it's self-aware anyway. And for that matter why mourn people who are already dead? Why cry over spilt milk? It's not helping them! They're gone, and nothing can be done about it. The only thing we should be feeling about deaths is that they are tragic and we should feel angry about them and use that as fuel to help those currently alive, who we can help, because that it literally the only thing that matters.

    I don't care about potentially alive humans and I don't care about formerly alive humans. Caring about the fate of every single human already alive who has so much to lose is already more than enough, almost too much to handle really, but it has to be done, it's necessary. Let's just be done with the rest.
     
  9. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Mar 4, 2011
    There is no argument to be made on this. You don’t care. But there are enough people who do, who draw the line a hell of a lot earlier than eight months and 30 days (including myself; two fetuses born earlier than eight months and 30 days are currently upstairs in their bedrooms, thriving, over a decade later).

    If you want to steer a lot of people to the pro-life side, take the all-or-nothing stance that you are taking. I will certainly become solidly pro-life if the line is “abort up until 40 weeks or no abortion at all”. (Although I will continue to advocate for free birth control and widespread, thorough sex education.)

    Thankfully that is not the stance of, well, most anyone.

    Viability outside the womb is not important to you. No one can make it important to you. And I’m not going to try. Nor should you try to make it unimportant to me, because you would be about as successful. Not gonna happen.

    (And before anyone tries to throw out “b...bu...but emotional/not rational/letting motherhood color your viewpoint”—nope. My viewpoint on this subject was solidified well over a decade before my first pregnancy.)
     
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  10. Artoo-Dion

    Artoo-Dion Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jun 9, 2009
    That's exactly where your argument is headed though. I'd also suggest that your stance of "The dead are gone so who cares?!" is equally tone deaf.
     
  11. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Mar 4, 2011
    I missed that part. Yeah, if your argument goes into ‘What is the problem with literally murdering babies?’, you start looking like every caricature of the pro-choice movement that hard-core pro-lifers put forth on Alt-Rights-R-Us websites, right above the story about Satan collecting socks for charity and Hillary Clinton running a child porn ring out of a pizza joint.
     
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  12. Nobody145

    Nobody145 Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Feb 9, 2007
    Aside from the abortion thing (please wait a moment, I'm getting to my point), I'd take the anti-abortion arguments more seriously if there was more support for people after they were born. I understand why abortion is a difficult decision, and I think most of it should be left to the person giving birth (although I'm open to debate and I only understand enough to know that its complicated), but conservatives are anti-abortion and also usually anti-healthcare and education and against decent infrastructure in general (Republicans have been so busy cutting taxes for the rich I haven't heard about building anything aside from a useless wall on the southern border).

    I'm not qualified to debate over the timing of an abortion, but it sounds ridiculous when conservatives campaign against birth control too (and refuse to send aid money to any organizations or countries that aren't anti-abortion). So women don't have a choice about abortion, but conservatives also block even sex education, and once the baby is born, then what? Since conservatism is against "government handouts" and all.

    Sorry I can't articulate my point well. I'm leaning pro-choice, but it'd be nice to see more concern about school-age children and adults too (and the future of our planet in general). Sure seems more like just restricting women's options rather than concern for people overall.
     
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  13. Yoda's_Roomate

    Yoda's_Roomate Chosen One star 5

    Registered:
    Feb 8, 2000
    So I cant wait for the Trump apologists to defend the Saudis for killing the WAPO reporter since Donnie is trying to deflect and defend them. I am so full of hate for Trump and his followers sometimes I dont know what to say anymore.
     
  14. Yodaminch

    Yodaminch Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Mar 6, 2002
    We'll find out in November I suppose. If voters call Trump's bluff, things get very interesting. If not, Trump can continue on this path for another 2-6 years. And we'll probably all be dead by the end of it once global warming finishes us off.
     
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  15. SateleNovelist11

    SateleNovelist11 Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jan 10, 2015
    I loved how Leslie Stahl was hard on Trump a few times during the interview today.
     
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  16. BigAl6ft6

    BigAl6ft6 Force Ghost star 7

    Registered:
    Nov 12, 2012
    The Saudi's are going to admit the reporter died in an "interrogation accident" so Trump can't use the "rogue killers" line again. I think. Pretty sure.
     
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  17. Darth Nerdling

    Darth Nerdling Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 20, 2013
    I don't get how you don't get this. The reason people don't want a fetus terminated in the 38th month of pregnancy is that fetus is exactly the same as an infant born slightly prematurely, and we don't go around killing slightly premature babies. In fact, killing newborn infants is like the most awful act imaginable for many people. So, in the minds of most people, the fetus at that point is not a non-entity; it's as much of an entity as a baby is. It's location just happens to be inside of woman's body instead of outside of it. It seems incongruous to people that a premature baby by 5 weeks (equivalent to the fetus in the 35th week) would be considered more of a human being than a full-term baby (39th or 40th week) just before it is born when a full-term baby just before its birth is more developed physically and mentally than a premature baby is.

    It seems that you've flipped a hard to defend extreme pro-life argument on its head. Extreme pro-lifers (who don't resort to half-baked religious rationales) argue that since we can't figure out the exact time when an embryo/fetus becomes a human being, then we, out of caution, must conclude that it is a human being from the very beginning. Instead, for you, since there is no exact line of demarcation, your position is that we must conclude that it is never a human being.

    The thing is, emergent properties don't have clear lines of demarcation, and the change from a single cell to human life is a slow progression where the fetus becomes more and more human-like as it develops. Still, we know this much: newborn infants are clearly human beings, so a fetus that is as developed as a newborn infant (or a premature baby that can survive outside the womb) is effectively the same as a human baby. Whether the fetus can be said to possess attributes that make it a human being before this point is much more difficult to say. The Supreme Court, I believe, said as much in its Roe v Wade decision, admitting that viability was the fallback best solution that they could find since they did not know what criteria to use to determine whether a fetus qualifies as a human being before this point in the pregnancy.

    Personally, I think the concepts that we use in end of life care perhaps should be applied to fetal development as well. Life support can be discontinued when a person is considered to be brain dead, even if the brain can still control basic bodily functions, such as when a person is in a persistent vegetative state. If brain death defines the end of life, then it seems to me that brain life should define the beginning of life as well. While I don't have the medical expertise to make such a determination, medical ethicists and neurologists have reached conclusions about the end of life, and it seems reasonable that they could reach similar conclusions about a rough definition of when brain life begins.

    Even with my lack of expertise, I think I can safely say the following though. Since infanticide is illegal (as it should be), then we must accept that a newborn possesses a level of cognitive ability that qualifies it as a human being. The same would be true of premature babies. I can't say how much further back than this it would go, though it certainly couldn't go as far back in development as when the embryo/fetus doesn't possess a brain with functioning neurons or, even earlier, when it doesn't have a brain at all. If medical experts can't reach a consensus or at least place the beginning of brain life within a rough range bound by upper and lower limits, then I guess we're stuck with viability as the best standard, even though this also is a somewhat messy solution since medical science keeps pushing that point earlier and earlier in the pregnancy as neonatal intensive care keeps improving.
     
    Last edited: Oct 15, 2018
  18. appleseed

    appleseed Chosen One star 5

    Registered:
    Dec 5, 2002
    My questions for those who are militant "Pro-Lifers" are always thus:

    1. How many children are you currently adopting or fostering?
    2. And/or how much of your income past basic living expenses are you donating to charities for poor families with children?

    Put your money where your mouth is or shut it.
     
    Last edited: Oct 15, 2018
  19. Lordban

    Lordban Someone Special star 6

    Registered:
    Nov 9, 2000
    I really love the abortion debate. It's one of those issues where there isn't an absolutely right answer and only a less wrong answer for each individual set of circumstances.

    And yes, I suppose flexibility in approach and preferring to balance out the individual circumstances in each case makes me pro-choice.
     
  20. Darth Smurf

    Darth Smurf Force Goat star 6

    Registered:
    Dec 22, 2015
    The Saudis are his best friends, they are part of the axis of good. He cannot call them "rogue killers" because it is not true.
    Calling the Saudis "rogue killers" would be ridiculous like calling Iran an ally/sponsor of ISIS and Al Qaida. Trump and his fellows would not do this. :p
     
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  21. MrZAP

    MrZAP Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Jun 2, 2007
    @anakinfansince1983 @Vaderize03 @Darth Nerdling @Lordban @Artoo-Dion I wrote a well, very long post in reply to you all. By the end it had morphed into something different, and I've decided that it would be more appropriate to put it in the new mental health thread for the sake of not derailing discussion here while still satisfying myself. It has been added to at the very end because of the changed context. The main body is entirely unaltered, which will probably show some peculiarities. Anyway if you are willing to look at it, long as it is and I know it's asking a lot, I would appreciate it. If not I understand because I know it'll take time. I figured I would mention this here anyway for added context for people.

    Edit: Actually it looks like two posts spliced together. Oh well, it happened.
     
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2018
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  22. Vaderize03

    Vaderize03 Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Oct 25, 1999
    Pretty much the best argument I’ve seen made here on this issue.

    I’d add the following: when the fetus is capable of reacting to stimuli beyond simple reflex. That’s probably somewhere in the mid-second trimester, but we don’t know for sure yet. Regardless, that’s generally past the point where physicians are comfortable performing elective abortion, so we’re still talking about a rare set of circumstances overall.


    On a completely unrelated note, has anybody given thought to the possibility of this? It’s concerning to say the least.
     
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2018
  23. Luke02

    Luke02 Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Sep 19, 2002
    @BigAl6ft6

    Don't be so sure on that. I am pretty sure Two Scoops Donnie will just go, "Exactly rogue agents" or something along those line and declare victory. Or borrow from his smug wife and go, "Who cares". In the end, Trump and his administration will do everything they can to sweep this under the carpet.
     
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  24. Rylo Ken

    Rylo Ken Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Dec 19, 2015
    That Trump would try to turn the tables on foreign voter influence if Republicans lose control of the House? Seems like there have been plenty of signs that might be the case.

    On a positive note, 538 argues that young voters may turn out in record numbers for a considerable upside surprise at the midterms.
     
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2018
  25. Luke02

    Luke02 Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Sep 19, 2002
    I think voting is going to be up across the board this midterm. I think people have just had it with tRump and his idiotic behavior to say nothing of his policies which have really hurt our country. Even if you are a conservative as conservative gets, how are you not embarrassed by his idiotic behavior? I spend all day with teenagers and if any of them acted like them, they be suspended from school or if not toss out. Then again none of them act like him either. They are much more mature even with their hormones raging while being young and naive.
     
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