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Discussion The Utterly Awful Completely Contemptible Please God Make The Suffering Stop Rumors Thread

Discussion in 'Star Wars: Future Films - Spoilers Allowed' started by Darth Chiznuk , May 7, 2019.

  1. Darth Chiznuk

    Darth Chiznuk Superninja of New Films star 7 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Oct 31, 2012
    So do I. I would have loved to have seen George’s ST. That doesn’t mean it wouldn’t have been controversial with some fans. In all likelihood it would have been. As @Pro Scoundrel points out the fan base is far too large to accommodate everyone’s taste.
     
  2. Lee_

    Lee_ Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 3, 2012
    Partially agree.

    For SW fans as a group, there is a lot of disagreement followed by a lot of vitriol about a wide range of SW topics. Nonetheless, right now we have an example of a Star Wars production that is nearly universally liked, and widely loved by casuals and hardcore fans alike. Despite possible differences between trilogies and streaming shows, this raises the possibility that every production doesn't have to involve pervasive, angry nerd disharmony. If you remember, the ST didn't get super controversial until TLJ; everyone wasn't wild about TFA, but it wasn't super divisive.

    As far as Lucas doing the ST, it is highly likely that it would have been controversial, but we don't know how controversial. I'm not convinced that he isn't in a resentful, trolling state of mind when he says that the fans would have hated the bizarre little story about Midi's that he would have made the ST into. I have my doubts about how accurately he is characterizing what he would have done; I think that is more about Lucas's emotional reaction to the situation. All of the flack he has gotten clearly wears on him, and I don't believe he ever has or ever would make something that he knew audiences would hate.
     
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2021
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  3. Darth Chiznuk

    Darth Chiznuk Superninja of New Films star 7 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Oct 31, 2012
    The Mandalorian deals mostly with new characters though. That’s a lot easier to satisfy a large group of fans with than when you’re creating a story that people have built up in their heads for decades such as the PT and the ST.
     
  4. bstnsx704

    bstnsx704 Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 11, 2013
    And because of its placement in the timeline, when The Mandalorian does tackle pre-existing characters from the OT like Luke or Boba it is essentially recreating the version of them that people remember to a tee, rather than evolving them in significant strides like a story set thirty years later would demand.

    I still maintain that I would have loved Lucas' sequels, on the basis that I love his originals and his prequels. I still want to ready a copiously researched account of everything he had been working on in his treatments - his "microbiotic world" concept absolutely fascinates me. But that being said, while his sequel trilogy would likely have been very much for me and it pains me that we didn't get that, I'm also fully aware that it would likely have been incredibly controversial to an audience at large. The prequels owned the title of the most controversial Star Wars for almost two full decades, until The Last Jedi released, and here Lucas would have been doubling down on concepts that earned him much of that controversy in the first place.
     
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2021
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  5. Lee_

    Lee_ Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 3, 2012
    Mando was full of old characters too though. They were just handled better. Relationships between characters were handled better. I don't think it is a coincidence that the higher quality production did better.

    It still is a toss up whether Lucas would have been more controversial given just how much fury there was over the ST.

    I think it is more about sacred cows than it is "building up in people's heads." The fact that Lucas may have handled the sacred cows better than Rian (better in terms of fan perception) could have alone made them less controversial. Fans were infuriated to no end about the way popular characters were killed off.

    In any case, TFA, didn't bring much wrath of fans. If it had been more creative, it could really have been loved by fans, and that had as much buildup as anything..

    The fact that it might have been easier to make a good show doesn't change the preponderance of evidence that there was not inevitability to mass vitriol and hate by fans for the ST. That idea really is unfounded speculation at this point. I think it could have been huge if TLJ and TROS didn't take things so far off the rails.
     
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  6. ewoksimon

    ewoksimon Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 26, 2009
    I think the fact that Lucas intended to further explore a biological facet of the Force in the ST would have undoubtedly triggered more vitriol from those who rejected that idea in the PT. Lucas admitted that midi-chlorians had less of a role to play in the PT, so he largely dropped them after TPM. But it seems apparent that the relationship between the midi-chlorians and the Whills (which he defines as single celled organisms) was integral to his telling of the ST, especially in clarifying the "balance of the Force."

    I don't know how much of that would appeal to a general audience. Not that Lucas cared.
     
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2021
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  7. Pro Scoundrel

    Pro Scoundrel Socially And Emotionally Distant Mod Of New Films star 6 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Nov 20, 2012
    Like I said the other day, Lucas' ST would be contraversial, but they'd be controversial for different reasons. Challenging new lore that some fans would reject, like the midis lore mentioned above, and probably the same struggles with actors and performance that he usually has.

    Visual FX has come such a long way I don't think he would have caught as much flak for that this time around. Nobody complaining about "too much, or bad cgi". But, his difficulties with dialogue and actors would still be apparent.
     
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  8. PymParticles

    PymParticles Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Oct 1, 2014
    I just got to thinking... Lucas's biggest problem, I'd argue, was that he didn't have a collaborator to rein him in during the PT. With he and Filoni developing a really solid working relationship during TCW, I wonder if Filoni would have been involved in the same or a similar capacity had Lucas decided to make the ST.
     
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  9. Darth Chiznuk

    Darth Chiznuk Superninja of New Films star 7 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Oct 31, 2012
    The vitriol for TFA was pretty intense actually. Perhaps not as much as for TLJ or TROS but it was definitely still there.

    Anyway the returning characters in season had limited roles and none strayed too far from their original depiction. The PT and the ST definitely suffered from fans built in expectations. I’m not arguing the quality of either. They both could have their own faults. What I’m saying is it’s a hard to satisfy such a large fan base as Star Wars has when there’s such a diverse range of opinions and when the story has been anticipated for literally decades. Things like The Mandalorian or Rogue One don’t have those issues.
     
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  10. Pro Scoundrel

    Pro Scoundrel Socially And Emotionally Distant Mod Of New Films star 6 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Nov 20, 2012
    It's possible. I doubt Filoni would have had no involvement at all, but it depends on if he was still working on TCW.

    I don't think Lucas needing to be reined in was the problem, though. His weak spots as a writer/director would still be present. I think he needed a collaborative interpreter. Someone to present his ideas, but who is more skilled with actors/dialogue. Filoni/Kasdan/Kershner all functioned in this way.
     
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  11. Tython Awakening

    Tython Awakening Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 12, 2017
    I think he needed someone to filter his ideas. He needed this especially for Phantom Menace. He was out of practice and out of touch with his audience.

    Episode II is my favorite prequel film by the way. I've always thought the Phantom Menace would have worked as a prequel television series to the actual Prequel Trilogy. Phantom Menace could have been broken into two network television specials like the Ewok films. After the long hiatus, that would have brought in ratings foo-doo for sure. And then we hit the Prequel films. But in my ideal world, there would have already been a Lucas-directed Sequel Trilogy in the 90s starring Hamill, Ford, Williams, and Carry Fisher that bridged with the comics and novels of the 90s.
     
  12. Lee_

    Lee_ Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 3, 2012
    TFA was the best selling movie in the US ever- not that that would mean hardcore fans necessarily were crazy about it, but none of the discussions in this forum were hateful and angry like they would later become after TLJ. Intense arguments then were more about the future (Rey's parents and such) but not so much hating TFA. Some complained about the rehash aspect, but not too bad.

    Agreed it is harder to satisfy, I would just disagree that it is impossible.

    Agreed that a good partner would have helped for Lucas on certain aspects, but I would think Lucas was too much of a control freak/micromanager for that to ever happen; that's the way he paints himself anyway. Maybe it would have been different the third time around; some do change in old age with experiences.

    It's also possible that Lucas would have learned from his experiences in the PT, and would approach the actors differently.
     
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2021
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  13. Darth Chiznuk

    Darth Chiznuk Superninja of New Films star 7 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Oct 31, 2012
    As someone who still has nightmares from modding the haters sanctuary that’s just inaccurate. There was tons of vitriol ranging from Kylo Ren and Reylo to Snoke being a Palpatine stand-in to Luke only having a non-speaking cameo to Han dying to it being a rehash. On and on and on.
     
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  14. Lee_

    Lee_ Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 3, 2012
    [
    Right, but that is the haters sanctuary. There wasn't nearly as much in the general forum, and other forums. It existed, but wasn't comparable to what would happen later. There was a lot of praise in some active forums, like the box office forum.
     
  15. Pro Scoundrel

    Pro Scoundrel Socially And Emotionally Distant Mod Of New Films star 6 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Nov 20, 2012
    Ah, memories!
     
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  16. Darth Chiznuk

    Darth Chiznuk Superninja of New Films star 7 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Oct 31, 2012
    The hater’s sanctuary only became necessary because we were attempting to contain it to a single thread instead of letting it spill out everywhere which it was up to that point.
     
  17. Pro Scoundrel

    Pro Scoundrel Socially And Emotionally Distant Mod Of New Films star 6 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Nov 20, 2012
    Very unlikely. Watch the special features of any of George's films, and you'll hear the same criticisms of his directing style from the actors. The OT crew joke about it all the time, and are pretty blunt about it on the "Empire Of Dreams" documentary. American Graffiti stars talk about it on that films special features. The PT actors have spoken about it. Only Robert Duvall has complimented his approach to actors, because Duvall doesn't like much input from directors, so George was a good fit. It's just the way George is. He's a visionary, a genius, a "big picture" thinker, but he leaves actors kind of scratching their heads a lot of the time.
     
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2021
  18. Bor Mullet

    Bor Mullet Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Apr 6, 2018
    This is true. It’s also why I demand that Lucasfilm only accommodate my taste.
     
  19. Lee_

    Lee_ Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 3, 2012
    I think what he did with them on screen DID improve. As far as how they felt about his approach behind the scenes, that's another issue from what I was talking about. The end of the PT was much better than the beginning for a lot of reasons.

    I don't really see Lucas's deficiencies in the same way others do. I've always thought that Lucas made the movies he wanted to in the sense of things like the dialogue of AOTC- I've always said that was made like the early serials dialogue, which Lucas recently confirmed in an interview. He probably should have taken a different approach; he does better with love stories involving a scoundrel, not someone being romantic. Also, I think ROTS was a fine film.

    Lucas's biggest downer IMO is going too kiddie- he did it for 2 movies in a row, resulting in the two worst movies of his trilogies (ROTJ/TPM)

    I think a lot of his midi talk is trolling BTW. He is doing something similar if more subtle than your video. The concept may exist in his mind, but I don't buy that the way he talks about it is the way he would have managed it. One of the reasons the PT changed was the response from the first 2 movies.
     
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2021
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  20. The PiedPiper of Alderaan

    The PiedPiper of Alderaan Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 16, 2015
    It's true that the "mandoverse" is a big success right now with fans and casuals alike. Not everyone likes it of course, but it's mostly well received. But in a way, every non-saga SW features are doing well, or at least they don't stir up controversy. Yes Solo was a box-office bomb but there's no hatred for this movie, no "the director/KK ruined SW" discussions...

    A saga SW movie is always bound to be controversial somehow, this is where the passion of the fandom and even the general public
    is the most volatile and demanding. And the ST was the direct continuation of the Skywalker storyline so there was one chance in a million it would unify the fandom.

    The SW spin off and series? People take them as a bonus, if they're good, then fine, if not, no harm done, move on.

    What could work in favor of the next saga is that we're gonna leave all the imperial/rebel, skywalkers, palpatine and sith stuff behind. But they really have to come up with something as exciting as Lucas did in the first place, if they want the audience to feel invested. Not an easy task. The next saga's biggest challenge is not to avoid controversy -i doubt a new timeline will make things as controversial as a post-ROTJ trilogy- but to make the people care for the post-skywalker GFFA.
     
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2021
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  21. Tython Awakening

    Tython Awakening Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 12, 2017
    Along with the latest iteration of the Rian Johnson SW Trilogy rumor, I happened to notice there is a new rumor of George Lucas jumping into the fray to write new SW tv episodes for some wild, unannounced DIsney+ project. :ben:
     
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2021
  22. Lee_

    Lee_ Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 3, 2012
    True that the saga was loaded with expectations, but I don't necessarily agree with the conclusion of 1 in a million to unite fans.

    The other correlation is non-ST= good to great, ST= mediocrity to good. Quality makes for less division and more unity. Making the ST into this avante-garde SW was obviously a huge mistake.

    If the ST was as good as Mando, it still would have been divisive, but not nearly as much so.
     
  23. TCF-1138

    TCF-1138 Anthology & Fan Films Manager and Ewok Enthusiast star 6 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Sep 20, 2002
    Didn't that start with him being credited on a couple of Andor episodes on IMDb? It's either just a "based on" credit, or someone trolling. Or have there been more rumors since?

    Either way, Lucas is done with Star Wars. As much as I would love to see him back for a movie or an episode or two of a show, I don't believe for a second that it will happen.
     
  24. Tython Awakening

    Tython Awakening Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Oct 12, 2017
    It seems like there are many news stories out there suggesting Lucas is a writer on least two Cassian Andor episodes. Personally, I would like to see some Lucas fingerprints on these episodes.
     
  25. TCF-1138

    TCF-1138 Anthology & Fan Films Manager and Ewok Enthusiast star 6 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Sep 20, 2002
    If it's just that rumor, then people need to learn how IMDb works. Anyone can edit it, and it's always unreliable before a show actually premieres.
     
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