Discussion The Utterly Awful Completely Contemptible Please God Make The Suffering Stop Rumors Thread

I guess it's a good thing that Ke Huy Quan is acting again, then.

 

Agreed, and he was fantastic in Everything Everywhere All At Once. If they want to go the route where Short Round has followed in Indy's footsteps, I'd be more than okay with that.

 

Somehow i appreciate the trilogy format, it has that classic 3 acts structures that makes it feel like an old tale, like it belongs to a classic, timeless era. Sometimes it's interesting to work within boundaries. On the opposite, and despite what they say, i fear that this "beyond trilogies" concept is only a way to mimic the MCU. Actually, if i was sure it wasnt the case i would be more than ok with a 4 or 5 or more movies saga structure. Like a lot of fantasy cycle. But i'm not sure that's what they're thinking. They want the shared universe. I'm not sure we should envision the MCU as the way to go. Sagas yes,, whatever the number of movies, not this interconnected gimmick where every film is just a commercial for the next, never on its own merit.

And i just want to add this: TLJ is indeed the most interesting take on SW during the Disney era

 

Most old tales didn’t have three act structures though. That was just an Aristotle thing.

 

This is mostly true. Yes, ancient tales are simplistic structures that lack a three part plot (although they do tend to repeat significant activities in threes, but this is much different); however, Aristotle didn't create the three part, cause and effect plot -- he simply described why he thought that tragic structures -- what we refer to today as dramatic structures -- as found in Oedipus were more enjoyable than epic structures like The Iliad. He wasn't even talking about tales at all, just to be clear.

So it would be more accurate to associate the three part structure with ancient Greek tragedy, not tales. Although it's just as true to say that Star Wars is a mix of these forms.

 

True, but the “Greek tragedy” part of Star Wars only really started with ESB. When watching ANH in a vacuum it doesn’t really feel like it’s setting up a trilogy (not to me, at least) but rather a more ongoing “serialized space adventure” type of story. One can’t help but wonder what it would’ve been like had they kept going down that route (Splinter of the Mind’s Eye, etc.). Not saying it would’ve been better or worse, just different.

That said, maybe some of the newer films will get back to that “feel” I’m trying to describe.

 

Yup. I was just speaking in shorthand. And I personally don’t agree with Aristotle on the inherently greater enjoyability of the three act structure vs. epic structures.

 

I'm certain people are describing the feel of the tale -- folklore, legends, myths, fairytales, allegories, parables -- these are the origins of much larger contemporary genres like fantasy and sci fi. ANH has a lot of these classic elements in it, for instance, going on an extraordinary adventure with magical elements, knights, and evil wizards.

I figured you were, but I point out the difference only because others are conflating the tale with the tragedy. Aristotle had good reasons for preferring the tragedy over the epic -- he was trying to defend narrative and poetry from Plato who believed these things should be banned from the ideal Republic (because they don't imitate reality well).

I enjoy the tragic structure as much as the episodic structure; they both provide different pleasures and have different aims.

However, the tragic structure led to the development of believable character arcs and psychological depth for characters, so we are indebted to those who have studied Aristotle over the years.

The most basic distinction between tragedy and epic in many ways has been lost over the years, but it's the difference between a tight cause and effect plot focused on a single line of action vs. loose cause and effect between episodes with various lines of action. The movies these days usually utilize plots that fall somewhere in between.

When we discuss tragedy in terms of plot, we shouldn't think of tragic endings but a tightly focused cause and effect plot. Tragedies can have happy endings depending on what the character learns in the second act. If they learn sufficient information, then the catastrophic (unhappy) ending is averted.

For instance, in Attack of the Clones, neither the Jedi nor Anakin learn enough about the Sith plot to avert disaster in Act 3. In Empire Strikes Back, however, Luke learns that his father is Vader, which results in the happy ending of Palpatine's death and Anakin's redemption.

Tragic plots are just your basic dramatic plots these days, and we see them everywhere, even when poorly constructed.

 

Different posters have shared the respective articles in different threads, but I want to consolidate Kathleen Kennedy's comments pertaining to the next movie(s) in one place. I've extracted the relavent comments, or formatted the interviews to make them easier to read. Links are above each section. Thanks to @Darth Chiznuk, @rocknroll41, and @DLCV for initially sharing these articles.

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COMICBOOK DOT COM

TOTAL FILM
Total Film: Star Wars Celebration has led to some very exciting new, but I would say there was a curious lack of talk about the movies. There were reports that the next movie will now be Taika Waititi's Star Wars film. Is that correct?.

Kathleen Kennedy: That's correct.

Total Film: Is that aiming for 2023?

Kathleen Kennedy: Yeah. Well, not 2023, but late 2023.

Total Film: The December 2023 release date?

Kathleen Kennedy: We haven't locked anything in.

Total Film: The future of the movies is still in movement?

Kathleen Kennedy: Of course, they've been in movement all along. As we leave the saga, we have all this great, exciting work happening on the television side that informs so much about where we're going. We want to be very intentional about that. And we have great talent that we're working with – people who care so deeply about what the next iteration of Star Wars is and about getting people back into movie theatres, so we can really come out with a bang. That's important to us.

Total Film: Do you think that is a hesitancy perhaps in exploring past the Skywalker Saga?

Kathleen Kennedy: No hesitancy.

Total Film: So that's very much on your mind?

Kathleen Kennedy: Oh, yes. We need to create a whole new saga. That takes a lot. There's a lot of conversation around that.

 

Wow, this is really good news!

 

I mean, it really sounds like 1) we're closer to getting a new film in theatres than we realize, 2) they've been doing more behind the scenes prep than we've been made aware of, and 3) they're not hinging their big screen success on an assortment of standalone movies, but rather are brainstorming a brand new saga, which it sounds like Waititi's movie may be the first installment of.

Exciting stuff! As I'll remind everyone, Rogue One didn't start filming until August 2015 for a December 2016 release. There's absolutely time for them to get a movie ready for release late next year, and frankly... there's no rule that says movies need to be announced four years before release. Marvel Studios has obviously announced multiple projects years in advance, but Black Widow was officially announced in July 2019 after it started filming for what at the time was meant to be a May 2020 release date, and they still haven't officially acknowledged the existence of the "Werewolf by Night" Halloween special they're releasing this October, and that finished filming about a month ago.

 

The highlighted is the part that is most encouraging to me. After KK saying they were steering away from trilogies, I was concerned they would try to bank their entire new concepts of SW films purely on one-offs that focus on all different things (much like their Disney + series have so far). It's encouraging to know they are working on creating a whole new saga. The fact that she specifically used the term "saga" says something positive IMO.

 

its evident that no movie was happening due to planning of future movies/Sagas
-any post IX, comes
what is state of Galaxy? State of Jedi? Who are next villains etc. This is 100% open unlike anything set in past.

I do think the Mandoverse setting up things that could be post IX. Whether Jedi or Mandalorians coming back into Galactic importance.

-than anything pre-High Republic and we are talking about Thousands and thousands of years. That's a lot to go over, even if events are listed in timeline those are just in general sense with 0 details.

either way both=tons of planning/thinking. Better they take time to get it right.

also 1 more


although question was never about Solo 2
And finally, is there a future for Solo?

There's always a future for Solo!

 

It's cool they seem to plan the post-st carefully. What the movies really need now is move away from rebels and imperials and past characters once for all. It's not an easy task, it means being able to create a new iconic imagery as strong as what has come before. Intereting new characters and original situations/conflicts. What is the situation of the galaxy? Who are the villains? What are the stakes? The success and cultural impact of the future SW movies will depend on how exciting the answers are.

On a side note, if they're aiming for a dec 23 release, then they have to start filming this summer at the latest. And it's almost june already, i'd be surprised if they start shooting in the next 3 months, is this possible that it's happpening and we still don't know??

 

It’s possible that pre-production is further along than they’re letting on, but I guess we’ll just have to wait and see.

 

So far, selling Disney SW content to the fans and the audience has been "helped" by the use of classic SW imagery/characters/lore...even the Acolyte, the series that will take place in a lesser known era with all new characters, will tie to the rise of the sith and the fall of the republic and stuff like that...

....but creating post ST stories? It's a totally blank canvas, there's no previous lore/events on which to build upon. KK is still speaking about a new saga, so whether it's a trilogy (or a a trilogy of trilogy), stand alones, a couple of interconnected movies or a 7 movie long cycle, it seems they're aiming for an epic, galaxy-changing long term conflict, not just a small time gangster story. And obviously, because this is SW, it will feature somehow the battle of the jedi vs the darkside. Hopefully it wont be the Sith again, i suppose Disney knows that, but some new and original antagonist(s) strong in the dark side of the force. A new saga with no force users is just impossible. Even if they dont appear in every movie.

So what it's gonna be? Set in a couple of years/decades later? 200 or 300 years later? Even further? And in what way this is gonna be different from the other eras so it feels new and original enough to create stories unseen before, conflicts with different dynamics? What can SW offer beyond underdogs vs Evil master and their darkside apprentice? This is full of possibilities!

I am no writer, so my guess is as good as yours, but i'd say going a bit GoT would help set interesting narratives. So far it has been about this faction vs that faction (empire vs rebellion, republic vs sith etc..) what if the GFFA 100 years later is morceled into different kingdoms, with complex interactions with eachothers? A tech-religious cult of a thousand systems, a merchant empire, the falling kingdom of an enlighted monarch, a greek-inspired republic, a mandalorian imperium, a pirate nation, a scientific confederation, even a jedi monarchy or something haha etc etc...then maybe it's easier to devellop a whole new story? Make something unique and threatening happen and see how the galaxy react...

 

I think that KK seems intent on ST3 does say something about timeline post IX. From Nov 2021,
“Certainly, those are not characters we’re going to forget,” teased Kennedy of that third generation of Star Wars heroes. “They will live on, and those are conversations that are going on with the creative team as well.”

so guess years-decade might be answer.

what I would like to see is new darkside baddies who aren't beaten in span of 1-5 years but do like Sith who fought Jedi for thousands of years or at least hundred of years.
Also enough of 1 Jedi vs 2 villains, time for group of Jedi vs group of darksiders or maybe armies

 

She has reiterated LFL wants to move away from the Skywalker Saga. This means no more Palpatine nor rembering Vader. Hopefully no more Kylo neither.

I believe using such a weak cast as the ST one would be s poor basis.

 

I think she meant the Lucas era characters think OT3, PT that you can't live off them forever and you have to do something else if you want SW to surivive.
she even clarified the recasting topic during Celebration too.

and she's not wrong can't milk I-VI forever.

ST3 are not part of that.
For Years, KK kept saying IX ends Skywalker Saga and what started from I but always said that ST3 door is open beyond IX. So clear they aren't considered in this and again brought them up back in Nov 2021 and at Celebration as above was talk about post ST era too.

ST3 are characters with potential but 100% wasted and underdevelopped.
but stories with them as main focus without any OT baggage could help them be better characters and live up to potential.

 

This is just me, but I wouldn’t mind seeing Rose, Poe, Rey, and Finn in a later movie. Who knows if any of those actors would ever want to be in a Star Wars movie ever again, though.

 

Mandalorian Imperial Resurgence confirmed.

 

Well, they have 3 stories from George Lucas they could easily draw upon. And yes, I know it's not going to be exactly the same, but you can still draw heavily from them. That would be my advice to them. Bring back Maul (yes I saw the Rebels episode, just retcon it) or Plagueis or Talon or Revan or whoever, and use the existing imagery that has proven popular. You can still use Lucas's underworld story too - perhaps in the power vaccuum following the destruction of the final order, it could flourish. The main characters can still be new and not Skywalkers too.

Loads of ways they can go. Just stick as close as you can to any ideas Lucas gave them, because I think it's abundantly clear that's what the fans want now. And since they have the stories, they don't even need him working on it.

 

“Somehow Maul returned”

 

Um, no, it's most definately not abundantly clear what the fans want. Opinions are all over the place.

Nor can you just use the treatment Lucas had written for the ST. For one, because quite a few parts of that actually ended up in the movies, meaning you would repeat the same beats again, and secondly, a rough outline is very far away from the finished picture. Development changes the movies, that has always been the case. Neither the OT nor the PT ended up following their original setups, instead they evolved more an more during the development of each movie, with drastic changes in direction not only between movies, but also during production of a movie. Someone else starting from those treatments would either end up very far from what Lucas wanted to tell - due to obviously having an own mind about how things should be - or, if it somehow managed to stay 100% on course with the treatments (which is impossible), would end up with something very far from what Lucas would actually tell if he worked on it. There is nothing to be gained by trying to tell those stories (again). It wouldn't be a proper representation of the stories, and it would significantly limit the creative talent to something that they are completely disconnected from.

Bringing back Maul or someone like Plagueis would also be the exact story that just happened, just with a far weaker version (Maul) or completely useless option (Plagueis). Going with the Underworld stuff also isn't particularly promising. We already had "the New Republic is too weak to bring order" as the setup for the ST, they really shouldn't rehash that as the very next story that is coming up. Sure, you can introduce some growing-pains, but even that isn't necessarily something that should come up this soon. Go with something fun and adventurous, not "oh no, the Republic is in trouble again!".