Lit The woman that broke the galaxy... and Palpatine!

This topic popped up in various others over the last few weeks so I decided to go ahead and make it into a separate one. And probably this is gonna earn me a kill order from any feminist in the fandom, but I am not dead yet!


Facts first:
Lucas developed scripts for the unreleased/unproduced Underworld tv show he intended to start as first live action Star Wars show set right after Revenge of the Sith. Amongst its focus on Scum and Villainy, Bounty Hunters and even Boba Fett it was supposed tie into Coruscant level 1313 and many other bits and pieces from Han, Chewie, the Falcon, Lando etc. A lot of it ended up recycled in other media and projects in new canon, from the Mandalorian tv show to the Solo A Star Wars Story movie to Kenobi, Rebels, Rogue One and many others. But one thing a script would have dealt with was a certain woman, the titular character of this topic. The woman that broke Palpatine and through him the entire galaxy!

Not much is known about her aside that the episode would have dealt with Palpatine's backstory and how he became the evil monster he is. Nobody is born just evil. Even he had a tragic tale. Irrelevant if he would see redemption or not one day, but as per Lucas, as with most stories, it all started with a boy and a girl and what happened next...

While we do know neither her identity nor what happened exactly, aside that she is tied to the Underworld and scum and villainy of the galaxy and seems to be very powerful, I got a few questions for you:

1) How do you feel if "blame him for everything" Palpatine gets a tragic backstory that humanises him and makes him relateable even?
2) How would the current Star Wars that puts a focus on women finally, feel about an evil woman behind it all, even Palpatine? Or if not evil one who simply broke him and fell herself into darkness?
3) How would other used or unused story ideas and therads tie into all this new backstory bit?


Let me give you my own answers before yours:

1 - I always believed he was not born evil even if a problematic kid with a difficult family. So I welcome this addition to his backstory with all its implications.
2 - that one I leave for you to answer for now.
3 - Well...

An unused Revenge of the Sith idea was a father reveal that Palpatine was kinda a father to Anakin literally and however that relates to him and Shmi or experiments is unknown. I doubt Shmi broke him, maybe his heart when fleeing with a child? Her and her parents backstory before ending up in slavery has yet to be told in more detail.

Another dangling thread is from TCW about the relationship of the Dathomiri Nightsister witch Mother Talzin who had deals and a past with Palpatine. These backstories tie into how Darth Maul, a Nightbrother Zabrak of Dathomir, ended up in Palpatines care and how Talzins own galactic ambitions were betrayed by Palpatine setting her back for a decade or more to when she tried again in TCW.

From Legends there is another character who may be a possible candidate: Ta'a chume, Queenmother of the Hapes Consortium. She is ruthless, evil and hates the Jedi and Forceusers like Palpatine himself and Hapes had some deals to keep the Empire at bay of which more revelations might tie back to Ta'a and Palpatine having history perhaps.

If the aforementioned lady that broke Palpatine is from his youth, she can't be the mother of his children from TROS who are far younger judging by look and actor-ages. Those may still stem from other affairs and concubines as Legends had it for the Emperor. And there is still the unrevealed parentage of Mara Jade which may or may not tie into the Emperor himself too!

Underworld scripts and its focus on criminal families and characters makes me guess that the woman is the head of or heavily tied to one of the major crime families of the galaxy that the show would have expanded on. In his younger days Palpatine fell in love and him coming from a politicians family, rich and cultured and her from a crime family (the bad girl trope paired with two families at war akin to Romeo and Julia classic Shakespeare) comes to my mind for Palpatines backstory.

Young racing loving Palpatine met the wrong girl and ended up at odds with his family, which once Plagueis snatched him up and fueled his rage wound up very dead. Free to love who he wanted to though now, the girl was disgusted and left him cold and raging as Plagueis fueled his rage into other channels and political avenues with which he could end all crime families and said girl one day (basically becoming his father after all as a politician).

Sounds like a solid groundwork, so what might Underworld have added post Revenge of the Sith to bring said backtory up? With Bounty Hunter main characters no less?

Would this lady risen to the top of the crime families sent hunters to take out the chancellor cracking down on her crime business? Might Palpatine, now Emperor, survive an assassination attempt and decide it is finally time to strike back and cleanse all loose ends of his past? An assassination plot might introduce his doppelgangers that died in his place (as setup for future stories for his survival post ROTJ). Or would Palpatine employ a certain Jedi hating Bounty Hunter, young Boba Fett himself to take out surviving Jedi post ROTS that have fallen in line with said crime lady to help her topple the Emperor? (Personal hope: Mace Windu survived ROTS and now has a Nick Fury eyepatch and attitude organising a strike back until final faceoff with Boba Fett takes him out for good, which is what Palpatine may have promised Fett).

Plenty of possibilities as you can see. Backstory exploration, love turned hate, setup of future stories and more.

But we are not done yet, lets look at Palpatines kid from TROS, his son. Who was the mother? When did it happen?

If you are inclined to not accept concubines and likewise experiments as explanation (as that is what Legends had for other offspring already), there may be more to the story still:

Maybe it is as simple as a political deal and flirt between Palpatine and Ta'a chume as I noted in headcanon topic once which would make Isolder Legends Palpatine son and Tenel Ka his granddaughter. Mara Jade may be a sister to Isolder or else even then and related to Tenel Ka. Or Mara has dathomir roots. But speculation fun aside, back to the lady that broke the galaxy...

If the girl Palpatine loved in his youth was pregnant when she left him without him knowing about it (yeah paralells to Anakin leaving Padmé in ROTS!!!) then the Emperor might, after killing the lady finally post ROTS find out he has offspring and either take them in, or monitor them from afar.

The question is, how old would they be and if Rey is his granddaughter, not his great granddaughter, how does the timeline work? Rey is born 11ABY, her parents looked to be not older than 45 and probably younger. That'd place her fathers birth around 34ABY which is a tough sell, hardly in Palpatines youth and long after his fall! For now I am reluctant to use the obvious retcons of carbonite and other shenangians to have his kid not age for a while and be way older. So lets assume he pulled a reverse Kenobi and looks way younger than he actually is, her dad needs to be around 60 or more to fit Palpatines "youth" or younger enough days depending on where exactly one places his fall. Probably way older. So I conclude it is possible but unlikely that the woman that broke the galaxy and Palpatine is the same as Rey's father's mother.

So like Anakin love broke Palpatine but he had neither children nor family left to redeem him ever and he spiraled into the abyss of darkness alone. Yet when he had a child later on after all by someone else, known or unknown to him we do not even know yet, did he love it? Did he protect it or hunt it? Ultimately he ordered it killed and intended to abuse his granddaughter for his own survival. But was there ever a brief moment where he wanted to undo what he had done? Turn back time? Maybe via the World between Worlds? Seeking more and more power to undo the spiral of death he is trapped in slithering towards his own certain demise by becoming a master of time itself, his only way out still? (Unless a certain Timelord dropped by and helped)

Discuss away!

 

Maybe it's a regressive idea to blame a man being a evil douche because of a woman.
It's not like men need excuses to do horrible things

 

I would have liked to see Palpatine having an evil mistress after he became Emperor.

 

Yeah. It feels pretty regressive. I don't think it works in Star Wars. A country song, maybe, but not Star Wars.

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Now that I think about it, a country song about poor ol' Palpatine's younger days is something I'd definitely like to hear

 

I really am wondering why you're talking about "the woman who broke the galaxy" when literally the only thing we know about her is that she is an implied character, as in we know that she had to exist for Palpatine to have had a child. Is there some canon information I'm missing? If not, the vast majority of your post is making incredible assumptions, including

• Palpatine meeting this woman before he turned to the dark side
• This woman breaking up with him or being separated in some way
• Palpatine's grief over this driving him towards the dark side

I don't know, I just really don't get why you're assuming "evil woman behind it all".

 

The story sounded pretty good. I still think it should be aired, but maybe it shouldn't be THE reason Palpatine turns evil but one of many.

 

Palpatine already had a pretty tragic backstory. Its called Darth Plagueis, written by James Luceno.

 

"Man Bad Because Woman."

Who knows, maybe it'd have been fantastically nuanced and creative.

Probably not.

 

My only issue is that certain parts of the fandom that already hate Disney Star Wars would be going nuts over this and that wouldn't be a good thing.

 

I trust, in the spirit of equality, that you had the same complaints about Mystique's turn to evil due to male Beast (and to a lesser degree men Xavier and Magneto) in X-Men First Class?

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Do not conflate the mom of his kid and the woman who broke him, as I noted in my above post for obvious reasons.

Blame Lucas, interviews and folks who raid his unreleased scripts gave their impressions on their story bits and that is what I built this topic from. All three assumptions you mention are from those. Mine are the later conjectures of how to resolve it within Legends or Canon and what candidates there are for the roles to fill which I hoped to discuss too in this topic.

I get that it'd be a pandoras box to do this under Disney with feminist fans vigilant (and some way over the top so) and the modern internet backlash era really ruining movies and moviemakers creativity more than those could do themselves.

Storytellingwise though it rhymes nicely with Saga themes and Anakins own love issues and fall, adds nuance to the Emperors character and sets up bits that can be salvaged nicely for later exlplorations in stories with other females and the Emperor, his offspring and ultimately setup his ST survival even. It all falls into place easily and connects the entire saga well I think, even if it is totally regressive antifeminist (as SW was for a long time in the past).

Heck one could even find many feminist themes in this backstory, depending how they'd pull it off. I doubt Palpatines lady of choice would have been some weak princess or girl but a strong selfmade woman instead, something his patriarchic dad sure would not like. Her survival to post ROTS times speaks of skill and quite some power and equally may contrast Palpatines turn to patriarchy with hers to matriarchy and them at odds over it.

It needn't be a pandoras box after all!

And thinking of it now, I see that some of that backstory might have been transplanted to another character in canon with several tweaks to the story. Qi'ra's rise to power in Crimson Dawn and as its head later on mirrors the topic titular characters crime family rise perhaps, after she broke Han's heart. He too started a life of crime and scoundrel afterwards seeking a new "Master" when beginning to serve Jabba the Hutt. Paralells? Storyleftovers salvaged?

Given the same Underworld show was to feature Han, Lando, Jabba and co... and show how he got the Falcon and all that which got recycled into Solo A Star Wars story aside Kasdans new ideas, Lucas may have had paralell ideas in play for both backstories or thrown some around between characters.

 

I fail to see how Palpatine being spurned by a woman "absolves" him of anything. He would still be guilty of the same crimes period. If the story is good, the writers deserve to have their shot at having it adapted, period.

Some people in real life do indeed become criminals after being spurned (the criminal murderer Unabomber off the top of my head, Virginia Tech criminals etc.). We may not like the idea but that's how it is. Those people go to jail for their crimes when caught regardless, and rightfully so.

Why is there an effort to hide this aspect of reality (aside from the fact that Disney owns Star Wars now and is historically aimed at a younger audience not ready for adult issues)? And I certainly am not going to absolve Palpatine of his atrocities just because I want to see this story to light. In fact, the only mention of him being "absolved" came from the post I'm quoting here.

 

I don't remember it, but I probably would have if it's the same as what's being discussed here.

 

Star wars is filled with people turning to the dark side after bad interactions with others. Literally the whole PT is Anakin going bad due to Palpatine's influence. No one said Anakin didn't hold responsibility for his crimes as Vader.

No one absolved Ulic for his crimes after Alema Keto, cold hearted woman, pretended to love him and messed with him. He had to earn redemption through Vima. No one absolved Malak of his crimes even though his comics strongly imply he went bad after Jarael rejected him for Zayne. Both of these storylines are among the EU's most well known.

Why is it suddenly a problem now if Palpatine gets a Ulic/Malak treatment?

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Here’s my theory: Palpatine told the people of the galaxy that he went into politics after a woman wronged him, but that was a lie. The people didn’t know about Plagueis and “Darth Sidious” or about how long Palpatine had been power-hungry for. A reversal of Vader, who people can’t imagine having ever loved anyone but did in fact once have a wife.

 

No offense, but I am sort of surprised the mod of the Lit forums doesn't know KOTOR and TOTJ. And yes, Malak was rejected by Jarael and wasn't quite the same afterwards. And no, it was not some horrible, victim blaming story at all and to this day John Jackson Miller is one of SW's finest writers. You could take a look at it on comixology. A film version of that is what I'd like to see with Palpatine.

As far as heartless gangster woman, we got that with Alema Keto ultimately rejecting Ulic by abandoning him during the Great Sith War. Those were all about romantic overtures. Nomi literally caught Ulic in bed with Alema. At least read the works in question before claiming those stories weren't about overtures. I'm sort of in shock on your response because I'm used to people at least looking up or doing research before responding and you outright admit you don't know those stories (TOTJ and KOTOR comics) yet still criticize my citation of them. Baffling.

It's not so much "compelling" as there seems to be this massive move to block the story for reasons I'm still not clear on. People said it sounded good and emotional, who read the script. That's enough for me to want to see it. Like any other raving reviews make people want to see a work.

The complaints I'm seeing on this thread mirror the fears the "Joker" film was going to be some society trashing film glamorizing Joker. So much so that the army put out a warning or something. Now the film is highly acclaimed. I'm seeing that same fear here over this Palpatine storyline.

I totally understand if you're busy and don't have time to read those works or their wookiee articles, but I think a "Hey I'll look those up and then prep my debate response" before posting that those works which you didn't even read "weren't about overtures" (especially in the case of Malak which had entire issues of him hitting on Jarael and getting into a fight over her) isn't too much to ask.

I'd like to see the story and you don't and let's leave it at that I think since it's in neither of our hands now. I've explained why I'd like to see it and why I disagree on blocking it, and you have fine reasons on blocking it (even if I don't agree) and that's pretty much it.

 

Well, you know, there are a lot of people who say the Mandalorian is a dumb action thing... And I see where they're coming from--note (minor Mando spoilers)

Spoiler

Tracking fob tech was never explained and Moff Gideon and everyone completely forgot about it in the sewer chase in the season finale.

 

On these points, Alek didn't really go dark because of Jarael. His behaviour towards her was a symptom, not a cause. And Ulic was already very much on the dark side when he hooked up with Aleema. I don't see these as the same "Palpatine went bad because a woman scorned him" idea that's being discussed here; that seemed to be described very much as the cause of his evil; Jarael and Aleema weren't the causes of Malak and Ulic.

And...Joker being popular doesn't mean it's not problematic. But this isn't the place for that conversation.

 

The funny thing is that at no point in Cory Barlog’s comments does he say that this woman “rejected” Palpatine. People just assume that in this story he was an incel type loser who had a thing for this woman who told him to buzz off and incited his life as a fascist satanic being, but there’s really nothing to suggest that.

What Barlog says is that this gangster woman “destroyed” and “wronged” a young Palpatine. How that happened is anyone’s guess since we know next to nothing else about the story, but how that relationship played out could really have gone any number of ways and they didn’t have to be troubling or “problematic”.

Now, in saying that, the greater issue of trying to make Palpatine sympathetic doesn’t taste right, as he’s always just been depicted as the Satanic/Sauron/Morgoth figure of this fictional universe. Maybe it could have been done in a way that worked, but I couldn’t say. Certainly Star Wars Underworld had some talented names attached, so I don’t rule out that it could have been a great story. But it doesn’t seem likely we’ll ever see it, so...

 

I've noticed in these type of stories anyway that the villain in question usually had a lot of "reasons" to go bad even before the romantic rejection. The romantic rejection is usually seen as the "last straw" on a pile of reasons why the villain would turn evil. Haazen from the Knights of the Old Republic comics is a classic example.

I think framing a script we haven't seen as "Palpatine turns evil solely because of bad interactions with some woman" is likely massively oversimplifying it.

Apocalypse in X-Men (Marvel comics version not Oscar Isaac) also had his romantic rejection be the last straw in a brutal life that turned him evil, but it wasn't the sole reason.