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PT The Yoda/Dooku fight was originally a lot different

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by Havok176, Dec 21, 2019.

  1. Havok176

    Havok176 Jedi Knight star 1

    Registered:
    Feb 6, 2016
    Cliffs-
    Nick Gillard says Yoda wasn't in the original fight, but George decided that Yoda should be in it. While John Knoll states he made a argument to George that Yoda and Dooku are beyond masters and long graduated wielding lightsabers against each other. He said this could be more a battle of the wizards. He pulled reference clips from the anime movie Akira that he thought had great telekinetic visuals. But George said ya we could do some of that but come on peopele wanted to see Yoda use a lightsaber for years. Lol dont know about this one George i remember a lot got pissed.

    Nick Gillard at the end gave me a chuckle with his statement. "Sometimes he(George) says things and your like oh my god hes lost the plot" lol "and then you see afterwards and he was of course absolutely right".

     
  2. The_Phantom_Calamari

    The_Phantom_Calamari Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Nov 10, 2011
    I remember my entire theater breaking out in spontaneous cheering and yelling, and judging from online forums and YouTube comments, this was far from an isolated phenomenon.

    I've seen a lot of movies in the theater, and I've never--and I mean never--experienced anything like that ever again. I'd say George knew what he was doing.
     
  3. Durwood

    Durwood Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    May 18, 2002
    Same thing happened when I saw the film. By all accounts, the audience loved it.
     
  4. SlashMan

    SlashMan Jedi Master star 4

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    Feb 5, 2012
    There's two sides to this argument, and I think they're both rooted in an understanding of the character. But I will say that this was probably the standout scene in the movie that everyone was talking about. Even the home video release campaign leaned heavily into it, and Yoda with a lightsaber is now just as ingrained in pop culture because of it.

    The other side to the argument is that George's original vision was of Yoda being a noncombatant and strictly a teacher. This was the belief around Empire Strikes Back, though I believe the first instance of turning Yoda into a warrior was an early draft of Return of the Jedi where Yoda returns to assist Luke against Palpatine. But the "teacher" interpretation of Yoda pretty much stood until the prequels (at least in George's vision). At one point, Lucas even clarified that Darth Vader would win against Yoda because Yoda was not a fighter.

    So no interpretation was really incorrect, and I'm glad that Yoda's primary strength as a Force user was emphasized. I like the inverse of the Dooku confrontation was done for Yoda's duel with Palpatine, as they moved beyond sabers and settled the fight with Force strength.
     
  5. Count Yubnub

    Count Yubnub Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 1, 2012
    Same here. I’ve never before or since experienced a theater bursting into cheering and whooping like that. (This would’ve been in Pittsburgh, PA)
     
  6. oierem

    oierem Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 18, 2009
    Right. Ultimately, I think the interpretation of the character needed to favour the story being told in each case.
    In the OT, the Jedi were gone from the galaxy, and Luke had to find these old fragile masters to train, and had to be alone for the confrontation with Vader. That favoured the idea of a wise mystical master who is beyond fighting.
    In the PT, the Jedi rule the galaxy (and make many mistakes), they're active keepers of peace and justice. They cannot be passive characters. And that favoured a more action-orientated version of Yoda. He had to show why he was the lider of the Council, and that couldn't be done just by having him say wise stuff while every Jedi was being wiped out.
     
  7. The_Phantom_Calamari

    The_Phantom_Calamari Force Ghost star 5

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    Nov 10, 2011
    Yoda fought with a lightsaber in earlier drafts of TESB. It was only during the story conference for ROTJ that Lucas explained that Yoda wasn't a guy who goes out and fights like Obi-Wan Kenobi, and that he wouldn't be any good in a fight against Darth Vader. He didn't say he never fought.

    And what do we see in the prequels? Yoda isn't a guy who goes out and fights like Obi-Wan Kenobi. He doesn't go on missions. He sits on the Council at the Jedi Temple and teaches students. It's only the onset of the war which changes his role, and it turns out to be a mistake.

    But the notion of Yoda wielding a lightsaber was far from a new one by the time the prequels rolled around. Most people assumed he did and were expecting it. And there's nothing in the original films to suggest otherwise.
     
    Last edited: Dec 24, 2019
  8. sith_rising

    sith_rising Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 7, 2004
    It should have been like Dumbledore versus Voldemort in Order of the Phoenix - just a massive amount of Force powers and no lightsabers. Or Dooku approaches him with his blade, and Yoda pulls the handle from his grip and dismantles it into a hundred pieces.
     
  9. The_Phantom_Calamari

    The_Phantom_Calamari Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Nov 10, 2011
    Well, I know for a one hundred percent fact I watched Dumbldore vs. Voldemort at some point (because I've seen all the Harry Potter movies), but I couldn't describe it to you if my life literally depended on it.

    Everyone remembers Yoda vs. Dooku. There's a reason for that.
     
  10. Subtext Mining

    Subtext Mining Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Apr 27, 2016
    What I think some people miss about Yoda using a lightsaber is the beauty of the symbolism employed here - what Yoda resorting to using his lightsaber in that moment represents.
    No, he never wants to have to use it, he doesn't seek combat; but Dooku goaded him into it.

    When Dooku first started launching attacks on Yoda, he merely defended himself, as all OT viewers expected. But when Dooku proposed the ultimatum of a lightsaber duel, Yoda had a delimma on his hands. And here is where the symbolism of what the entire Jedi order was up against during this crucial time comes in.

    Yoda has principles, and a sacred code he lives by. Yet he is also sworn to protect the Republic. And not only that, but the putative Chosen One is laying defenseless nearby. Now the leader of the war-ready Separatist movement, whom he now knows is a Sith, is trying to kill him, the Republic and possibly Anakin. Keep in mind, though Yoda is over 800 years old, he's never before had to take on a Sith Lord. Wisdom and passivity always worked before, but now he is in new territory.

    By Dooku cunningly goading Yoda into a lightsaber fight, he has gotten Yoda to, much to our surprise, cross a line he arguably should not have crossed. As we see Yoda engaging in the thing he advised Luke never to do, we also see the Jedi entering into a war - betraying their own principles - falling into a trap of the Sith's design, by playing their sympathies and alliances against them. Much like how Sidious turned Anakin, and how Sidious & Vader tried to turn Luke.

    Yes, it was an amazing and fan-favorite scene in many ways, yet it was also rich in metaphor, as well. One could also consider it somewhat of a shocking reveal of sorts.
    It's also a good example of subverting expectations with clear, purposeful motivations.

    And with that said, I also believe this does not contradict or retcon Yoda's statements in the OT. If anything it was through all of these mistakes and his years to contemplate them that his beliefs were reinforced all the more by the time Luke came around for training. Even during the closing scene of AotC we see A look on his face that says a thousand words.
     
    Last edited: Dec 25, 2019
  11. Oissan

    Oissan Force Ghost star 7

    Registered:
    Mar 9, 2001
    I don't really see that at all. Jedi don't carry lightsabers because they offer such a nice shiny glow, they carry them because it is their weapon of choice to deal with enemies.

    Yoda fighting with a lightsaber isn't goading him into an behaviour he shouldn't enter, nor is it betraying the principles of the Jedi. Fighting with a sword isn't in itself more aggressive than fighting with other methods, it is just that: a method. Yoda didn't use his knowledge or skills for attack, he still fought the same battle as before. The purpose of a fight defines whether it is offensive or defensive, not the style you use in it. Dooku was the aggressor. He was the aggressor against Anakin and Obi Wan when he had them fight for their lives in the arena, and he was the aggressor when he engaged Yoda. You are still allowed to best your opponent to subdue him, else you wouldn't have any means to ever solve such a conflict apart from waiting until the enemy gets bored and leaves on his own.

    If using a lightsaber was something that you really didn't want to do at all cost, you wouldn't train small children their use, or have young teens being capable of slicing through enemies. This is very much like armed policemen (and I mean properly trained ones, not trigger-happy morons). They carry weapons, they don't want to use them, but if someone is using violent means and cannot be stopped without the use of force, that's what they will use to reach the necessary outcome. Jedi don't want to end up in combat, reaching a solution without a fight is always the preferred way, but they will use force if it is necessary, and it is neither crossing a line nor betraying the principles to do so.

    Anakin stating that Dooku is going to pay for all the Jedi he killed today, that's what contradicts the principles. But a lightsaber-fight in itself is not, and never has been, something that goes against the Jedi-way.
     
  12. sith_rising

    sith_rising Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 7, 2004
    Everyone remembers how bad it was, not how awesome it was.
     
  13. The_Phantom_Calamari

    The_Phantom_Calamari Force Ghost star 5

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    Nov 10, 2011
    That's not accurate. As I said before, my theater broke out in raucous cheers when it happened. Lots of people have reported the same. Nowadays, when I hear/see people talking about it, it's much more often in positive terms than negative ones. Everyone thinks Yoda's a badass.

    Of course there's the RLM crowd. But I don't think they're representative of either the general response at the time or the feeling since then.
     
    Last edited: Dec 31, 2019
  14. themoth

    themoth Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    Dec 5, 2015
    I loved it then and I love it now. We get the best of both worlds - Yoda using the Force AND a saber. The Clone Wars should be when combat is commonplace. Yoda is a Jedi and at war, so it fits. George gave us what a lot of people wanted to see. Once he’s in exile he’s in exile. Have fun with the Clone Wars.
     
  15. Billy_Dee_Binks

    Billy_Dee_Binks Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Mar 29, 2002
    I was at a charity premiere, so the audience wasn't necessarily comprised of only die-fans and yet seemingly everyone gasped when the Seismic Charge drowned out the sound for a second and later the whole theater errupted in applause and cheer when Yoda activated his Lightsaber and fought Dooku. Truly a rare collective experience.
     
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  16. Ruffmeian

    Ruffmeian Jedi Master star 3

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    Dec 19, 2015
    To be fair... are you as into Harry Potter as you are Star Wars? Lol.
     
  17. The_Phantom_Calamari

    The_Phantom_Calamari Force Ghost star 5

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    Nov 10, 2011
    No, but I liked the books, and you'd think I'd have at least a vague sort of inkling about what the fight was like. I'm coming up totally blank.

    Did your theater burst out in loud cheering during the Dumbledore vs. Voldemort fight? Are there any accounts of this happening?
     
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  18. Ruffmeian

    Ruffmeian Jedi Master star 3

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    Dec 19, 2015
    Honestly, I was underwhelmed with the Voldemort and Dumbledore fight. And no.I remember my theater having a huge reaction to just seeing Yoda walk in. He didn’t even have to pull anything.


    I talked to someone on this forum about a massive audience reaction I had during TROS and they were appalled. When Ben is surrounded by the KOR and he pulls the lightsaber, the entire theater (packed IMAX, in Orlando) ROARED and several people stood up and clapped.
     
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2020
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  19. The_Phantom_Calamari

    The_Phantom_Calamari Force Ghost star 5

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    Nov 10, 2011
    What does that have to do with what we're taking about? All that means is that that moment in TROS worked for the audience you were in.
     
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  20. Ruffmeian

    Ruffmeian Jedi Master star 3

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    Dec 19, 2015
    Why are you so snarky? You literally asked ”Are there any accounts of this happening?” I said no, then commented that I recall yoda walking in getting a huge applause. And I just made a description to another account. I don’t understand why that warrants you being rude for you not being able to follow.
     
  21. The_Phantom_Calamari

    The_Phantom_Calamari Force Ghost star 5

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    Nov 10, 2011
    I'm not sure what your issue with what I said is but I think I'm going to leave this alone. I'm sorry I upset you.
     
  22. Ruffmeian

    Ruffmeian Jedi Master star 3

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    Dec 19, 2015

    Touché
     
  23. JoshieHewls

    JoshieHewls Jedi Master star 4

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    May 16, 2013
    Yeah, saying that people hated the Yoda/Dooku fight is some serious revisionist history. People went crazy when it happened, it became a huge part in the film's advertising and because of that Lucas had Yoda do even more in Sith.
     
  24. Bee Bee

    Bee Bee Jedi Knight star 2

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    Dec 23, 2015
    Feels like a missed opportunity to me. Aside from tired arguments about Yoda's character being teacher / warrior... I honestly feel like resorting to lightsabers was kinda dull. We have two master of the force and what do they do? Hurl rocks and shoot lightning before they go at it with sabers. Surely more creative use of the force would have been more interesting. I'll admit at first it seemed cool but once the novelty wore off it ended up feeling sub par especially when ROTS features basically the same kind of duel with the same force powers being used and the same flippy twirly antics. It ultimately makes Yoda less cool because he just seems so limited.
     
  25. lord_sidious_

    lord_sidious_ Jedi Knight star 2

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    Feb 19, 2019
    Personally I loved the difference between the ROTS and AOTC duels. It shows that even though Dooku used the same techniques as Sidious, Sidious brought them to a whole different level.