There Is Still Good in Him: Do The Jedi Believe Anakin Can Come Back From The Dark Side?

THE PRO SIDE of the debate

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Firstly may I say, that I did not come up with this theory.

I initially read about this idea in the Is Akira Kurosawa the Key? thread. It was posted there by bad radio who has based his belief in this theory on Lucas being very influenced by Kurosawa's films. There is also a thread on EpisodeX, that is now locked entitled: Anakin -- One Last Good Deed? posted by Darth Hade that has bad radio's theory and musings as it's basis. It has been suggested that Hade ripped off bad radio but whether he did or not, IMO he opened out the debate very well in that thread, so I am using some of his ideas here too.

Of course this does not exonerate me in any way! I wholeheartedly agree with this theory and fully expect to be flamed. I just wanted to point out I am not looking for any kudos for the idea.
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And so to the topic. Do the Jedi believe that it's possible for Anakin to return from the Dark Side, but never tell Luke about it.

The theory helps to answer a lot of conundrums:

Why Vader tells Obi-Wan "You should not have come back."

Why Leia "remains safely anonymous." but Luke retains the name Skywalker.

Why Obi-Wan does not see Leia as an option

And most importantly....

I know that a lot of people believe that Yoda and Obi-Wan sent Luke to kill Vader but I do not agree with that, and neither does Lucas:



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The part I am working on now is mostly about Darth Vader, who he is, where he came from, how he became Luke and Leia?s father, what his relationship to Ben is. In Jedi the film is really about the redemption of this fallen angel. Ben is the fitting good angel, and Vader is the bad angel who started off good. All those years Ben has been waiting for Luke to come of age so that he can become a Jedi and redeem his father. That?s what Ben has been doing, but you don?t know this in the first film. ? George Lucas

L. Bouzereau, Star Wars: The Annotated Screenplays
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Yoda and Obi-Wan would see Luke as Vader's Achilles Heel. And they would be proved right in the OT when Vader demonstrates that he cannot destroy his son, or indeed, let him be destroyed.

Do Yoda and Obi-Wan believe that Anakin can be redeemed after the events of Revenge of the Sith?

It is clear to me that Obi-Wan cannot bring himself to destroy Anakin in his duel at the end of Episode III. He pleads with Anakin not to try his leap to the bank of the lava river on Mustafar, even though Yoda has specifically given him the mission of destroying the Sith. And when Anakin jumps, Kenobi chooses not to use a strike that will kill. He leaves Anakin's fate to the Will of the Force. And even though the likelihood should be that Anakin will perish; he does not.

Kenobi has 19 years to ponder the fact that something stopped him from outright killing the Chosen One, and something kept Anakin alive.

He also has that time to think about Padme's last words to him on Polis Massa:



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"Obi-Wan...there...is good in him. I know....I know there is....still...."

-- Padme Skywalker
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Words that she speaks as she touches the eternal, and becomes one with the mystical energy field that created Anakin to bring balance to the Force. In that moment, she KNOWS the truth. And she tells Obi-Wan whilst he holds the boy in his arms that he will watch over for those 19 years.

Obi-Wan's first reaction after Padme's death is to look down at Luke.

The boy whom the two remaining Jedi train, with a far greater emphasis on understanding the perils of the dark side and with the focus on confronting his father.

I belie

 

I think you just answered your own question.

 

Hmmm.... I am confused. RotS has been out and we have all seen it multiple times. We know what happens at the end: there is no Vader/Ben confrontation where Vader does one good deed. In fact, if the yellow eyes are a visual barometer of Anakin "dying" and Vader "starting to come alive", then by the end of RotS, "Anakin" is dead and "Vader" lives. No "last" good deed.

Do the Jedi believe Anakin can come back to the good side? I am not sure. Is there any indication from RotS that he can?

However, I fully believe that the Jedi - Obi-Wan and Yoda - finally understand the exact nature of the prophecy after RotS, and realize that Vader IS the Chosen One. Hence they take no direct action in the OT - Obi-Wan does not even try to kill Vader in ANH. They ask Luke to "confront" Vader, so that somehow, mysteriously, Vader will fulfil the prohecy and destroy the Sith. Of course, they know that by "destroying" the Sith, Vader will also have to die - but they never spell this out to Luke. Luke understands this at Anakin's funeral pyre where he too learns to "let go".

 

Based on the films, I'd say obi wan doesn't believe vader can be turned, there's nothing to show he feels otherwise. Yoda, I'm not sure of, his line in ROTJ is "You must confront vader" which is interesting and open to interpretation. I don't think anyone else felt the conflict in vader but luke and it's pretty obvious why. Yoda may have been holding on to hope for anakin, but he's unsure. Did they ever witness a jedi come back from the darkside? That has to factor in as well. Luke knew there was good in him but it was still a huge gamble on his part. A gamble he was willing to die for.

 

This thread is based on two older versions that were before ROTS was released, so some of the questions will appear outdated. Thanks, sinister.


The main crux of this thread is whether Obi-Wan and Yoda believed:

A (PRO): Despite all that happened in ROTS, Luke could bring Anakin Skywalker back from the Dark Side, and that bringing Anakin back from the Dark Side was the only way to destroy the Sith.

Or...

B (CON): Anakin was truly "destroyed" (or as Yoda says, "gone" and "consumed") when he became Darth Vader and there was nothing for Luke to bring back.


I would fall under the "Con" side of this debate, as Obi-Wan leaving the yellow-eyed Sith Vader to burn to death marks the end of their friendship and all hope Obi-Wan once had for his former pupil.

Given that we have this dramatic transformation scene, where Obi-Wan goes from being conflicted about killing his former pupil to abandoning all hope for him whatsoever, and we have no transformation scene where Obi-Wan regresses into his former mindset, this (along with Ben's dialogue) creates a consistent mindset and character coming from this transformation.

This attitude towards Anakin carries over into the OT with no scene of Obi-Wan expressing a contrasting idea (ie a scene with Obi-Wan indicating that he believes in Anakin). There is nothing to indicate that Obi-Wan doesn't mean that he truly believes that Anakin is "dead" and that Luke must kill his own father. In fact, it's explicitly stated in ROTJ that Obi-Wan believes that if Luke cannot kill his own father, then the Emperor has already won.

The OS databank (Which may or may not change, but is the official word as of today) further emphasizes this point:

There are other, more skewed and nuanced arguments from both Pro and Con as well, but this is the gist of it.

It is also an important dramatic plotpoint for Luke'

 

Remember Vader said to Luke Obi-Wan used to think as you did. At first Obi-Wan probably thought he could redeem Anakin but then as time past began to think differently.

 

I would have to say "no". The Jedi do not believe Anakin could be redeemed. I also have movie quotes to back that up:

"Then you are LOST!"
-Obi Wan

"Your apprentice is no more, consumed by Darth Vader."
-Yoda

"Once you start down the Dark Path, forever will it dominate your destiny."
-Yoda

"...the good man who was your father was destroyed."
-Obi Wan

"He's more machine now than man, twisted and evil."
-Obi Wan

"Told you did he? Unexpected this is."
-Yoda


'Nuff said.

 

I think that by the end of RotS Obi-Wan at least has lost all hope to bring him back,and most likely so has Yoda.He is after all the one who said "Destroy the sith we must." and "Twisted by the dark side young Skywalker has become." and that Anakin is now consumed by Darth Vader...etc. So Yoda certainly doesn't seem to think there is hope in bringing Anakin back to the light side.Obi-Wan on the other hand has some hope still when he goes to Mustafar,mainly because he doesn't want to kill Anakin and he still loves him.But when he actually sees for himself what Anakin is like now,when he chokes Padme and rants about his new Empire etc.I think that's when Obi-Wan decides that if he really must he's going to destroy Anakin.Even still he seems a bit relucutant during the duel.He is always backing away and even gives Anakin the warning "Don't try it." when he's going to jump...
After he hears Anakin screaming "I hate you!" at his face and leaves him to burn then he HAS finally lost all his hope.He's saying "You were my brother ,I loved you." Which to me means that to Obi-Wan Anakin is already as good as dead.
After leaving him Obi probably thought that Anakin would die a natural but very painful death on that Mustafar lava bank.Later when he finds out that he's still alive I don't think he has any hope left for Anakin to come back.To him Anakin already died on Mustafar and the only thing left is Vader...That's how I see it anyway But I do think that at first he wants to believe Anakin could come back,only because he still loves him and cares about him.But after the duel,no way...

 

I'd like to think that Obi and Yoda believe Anakin can return, however the films contradict this theory. It's crystal clear throughout the films that this is not the case. Neither Yoda nor Obi-Wan ever give the slightest inclination at any point during the OT that they think it's even remotely plausible that Vader can be redeemed. And as far as the qoute made by Lucas, about Yoda and Ben's real intentions with regards to Luke becoming a Jedi, are to redeem his father, well where is this demonstrated in the film? Never. The bottom line is, the films are what's canon and the rest, rough drafts, qoutes etc, are not.

Edit: BTW, to slightly digress, I thought Obi-Wan was one sorry mother, for not helping Anakin by the riverbank. That was sooooo wrong of him, regardless of what Anakin had done. I'd even go so far as to say that was a truly EVIL deed commited on Obi's part, leaving his former best friend to die like that.

 

In fact, it's explicitly stated in ROTJ that Obi-Wan believes that if Luke cannot kill his own father, then the Emperor has already won.

But Obi-Wan also never explicitly tells Luke he must kill Vader, he carefully chooses the word confront instead. That's an action which could go any way.

I've always believed that Obi-Wan, in particular, always held out a hope that Anakin could someday come back to the Light side. It is perhaps something he needs to hope for because of his guilt and pain. He would probably have been deeply affected by Padme's insistance that "there is still good in him." When Luke says the SAME thing later on, I would take that as the Force trying to tell me something. Yoda and Obi-Wan go into hiding "until the time is right". Isn't it very un-Jedi for them to wait 20 years in the hopes that Luke will kill somebody, no matter who he is? They are waiting for a sign from the Force.

Ben seems to go out of his way to tell Luke all about his Jedi hero father, and there is a clear purpose for that. He wants Luke to love his dad. But it also seems obvious that at some point Luke will run into Vader, and there in lies the possibility that Vader will tell him the truth. So why glorify him if all they wanted was for Luke to kill him? However, even though Obi-Wan may habor hope in his heart, it would not be practical to send Luke in without him accepting the possibility that Vader can't come back, that he will have to be destroyed with the Emperor. That's just common sense. And it helps Luke focus his mind and be rational, he can't be so insistant that he fall into the trap that Anakin did.

 

Good post RebelScum77, but it's a subjective one. I'd like to the believe the same things too, but the films offer no empirical evidence to support this theory.

 

Well really there's no direct evidence for either argument, just what makes sense to you considering the given clues. And of course, the words of George himself, if you believe them.

 

no It was decided by Mester Yoda and ob1 had no chouse in the matter
And I do not belive ob1 could have tak=en DS.he was to gone he started to change his apperence once he stloted the younglings
may THE FORCE BE WITH YOU ALL
>DOES ANY BODY THAL THEY WILL OR IF POSUBLE CONSTUCK A SABER?

 

I think both Obe Wan and Yoda knew that Anakin was not going to come back from the dark side because of anything that the force or the order could give him. He already turned away from the order and the light side of the force. I do think that they knew for Anakin, a Jedi that did love and show true attachment, that that was the only thing that would bring him back. Ultimately, the Jedi that forbid attachment knew that it would take attachment to bring the force back into balance. It took the attachment of father and son to allow Anakin to find his way back. While this is never expressed directly in the film, Yoda does admit he did not allow the order to grow and change in the book. Someone above was right when they pointed out Obe Wan told Luke he had to confront Vader. Now were they sure this would work, don't think so. But if it was going to work for Anakin in particular, reaching him through his child was the way.

 

I would have to say "no". The Jedi do not believe Anakin could be redeemed. I also have movie quotes to back that up:

I would qualify that statement. Not while they are alive they dont believe he can be. After they die, maybe. Only Padme and Luke truly believe Anakin can be redeemed.

 

Read my above post, the answer is right there in the movies. Unless you have a different definition of "direct evidence".

 

All those quotes can be taken in a variety of contexts:

"Then you are LOST!"
-Obi Wan

Lost does not necessarily mean unable to be found again. At that's proven in the films. In Labyrinth of Evil Yoda told Dooku when he was still a Jedi that he would catch him if he fell, and that he is welcomed back at any time.


"Your apprentice is no more, consumed by Darth Vader."
-Yoda

Very true, but I never said Yoda was as optimistic as Obi-Wan, he is ever the pragmatist. He's also trying to chide Obi-Wan into action, because he was obviously too attached to Anakin. He had to put aside his personal feelings and do what must be done to protect the Republic. Remember that Obi-Wan calls him Anakin and does try to reason with him, he only fights because Anakin leaves no other option.


"Once you start down the Dark Path, forever will it dominate your destiny."
-Yoda

It does indeed dominate Anakin's destiny. But it does not conquer it.


"...the good man who was your father was destroyed."
-Obi Wan

This is a "certain point of view" statement. Obi-Wan could not force Luke to believe in his father, Anakin had to truly know that what Luke felt came from his heart. But again he stresses over and over that Anakin was a "good man", why do that at all? Why create potential doubt in Luke if they just want him to kill the Sith?


"He's more machine now than man, twisted and evil."
-Obi Wan

True, he is more machine than man, and he has become twisted and evil. But Obi-Wan adds this almost as an afterthought. Again, Luke has to follow his own path and listen to his own heart, no one can choose it for him. Obi-Wan sets it all up so Luke can follow the will of the Force. He gives him both sides of the Anakin equation.


"Told you did he? Unexpected this is."
-Yoda

Yoda felt Luke was not emotionally able to handle this information, he had not been trained enough to deal with his emotions. Yoda's fear is that they will end up ruling him as they did his father. That in his rashness he will get himself killed rather than accomplishing anything. The fact that Vader actually admitted that Luke was his son is like admitting that he is still Anakin, Yoda would see this and the the clouding effect this too soon admission could have on Luke's mind.

 

He's more machine now than man, twisted and evil."
-Obi Wan

True, he is more machine than man,

Another mis-statement from Obi-Wan. Technically, body mass wise, Vader is definately more man than machine. General Grievious, as an example, is definately more machine than what ever he was before.

 

Lost does not necessarily mean unable to be found again. At that's proven in the films. In Labyrinth of Evil Yoda told Dooku when he was still a Jedi that he would catch him if he fell, and that he is welcomed back at any time.

First of all, I have not read the book, so I don't know what you are talking about. Second, Obi-Wan says it as if there is no hope, like Anakin is gone for good.

"You were the Chosen One! It was said you would destroy the Sith, not join them! Bring balance to the Force, not leave it in darkness!"
-Obi Wan

That does not sound like a man who believes Anakin could be redeemed.

Very true, but I never said Yoda was as optimistic as Obi-Wan, he is ever the pragmatist. He's also trying to chide Obi-Wan into action, because he was obviously too attached to Anakin. He had to put aside his personal feelings and do what must be done to protect the Republic. Remember that Obi-Wan calls him Anakin and does try to reason with him, he only fights because Anakin leaves no other option.

You were right, Obi-Wan does try to reason with him. Even until the final moments of The Duel. But once Obi-Wan chops Anakin's legs and arm off and Anakin screams "I HATE YOU!", Obi-Wan is finished reasoning.

If Obi-Wan did believe that Anakin could be redeemed, then why leave him there to die?

It does indeed dominate Anakin's destiny. But it does not conquer it.

And that is where Yoda and Obi-Wan go wrong.

This is a "certain point of view" statement. Obi-Wan could not force Luke to believe in his father, Anakin had to truly know that what Luke felt came from his heart. But again he stresses over and over that Anakin was a "good man", why do that at all? Why create potential doubt in Luke if they just want him to kill the Sith?

Obi-Wan is stressing the lure of the Dark Side. How it can corrupt even good men like Anakin Skywalker to the point of no return.

"I can't kill my Father."
-Luke

"Then the Emperor has already won."
-Obi Wan

It seems that Obi-Wan's intentions are clear right then.

True, he is more machine than man, and he has become twisted and evil. But Obi-Wan adds this almost as an afterthought. Again, Luke has to follow his own path and listen to his own heart, no one can choose it for him. Obi-Wan sets it all up so Luke can follow the will of the Force. He gives him both sides of the Anakin equation.

No, he only gives Luke his own point of view. He never tells Luke that Anakin can be redeemed.

The fact that Vader actually admitted that Luke was his son is like admitting that he is still Anakin, Yoda would see this and the the clouding effect this too soon admission could have on Luke's mind.

Yoda says this because he is suprised that Vader still recognizes his Anakin "persona." But when he says, "...and unfortunate." That is when he is saying that Luke was not ready for that emotional conflict.

 

One point I want to touch on -

I disagree. If Obi-Wan truly believed within his heart that there was no possibility whatsoever for Anakin's redemption to take place, he would have killed him instead of walking away. He left Anakin there not to die, but rather to allow the Force to determine his fate. If the Force allowed Anakin to live - so be it. That's all the more reason for Obi-Wan to believe that Anakin's redemption is still possible; it is all the more reason for Obi-Wan to believe that Anakin is indeed the Chosen One who will bring balance to the Force.

 

Second, Obi-Wan says it as if there is no hope, like Anakin is gone for good.

That is your interpretation. I have offered an equally plausible alternative.


"You were the Chosen One! It was said you would destroy the Sith, not join them! Bring balance to the Force, not leave it in darkness!"
-Obi Wan

That does not sound like a man who believes Anakin could be redeemed.

The possibility of redemption here isn't even an issue, especially when he believes Anakin is going to die shortly. And you can't take a quote said in the heat of emotional battle and apply it to a situation over 20 years in the future, after they've all had considerable time to think.


If Obi-Wan did believe that Anakin could be redeemed, then why leave him there to die?

Because he believed Anakin's injuries were too severe for him to live anyway. But even so, if he believed Anakin was nothing but a monster why didn't he finish him off? He leaves it to the will of the Force.


"It does indeed dominate Anakin's destiny. But it does not conquer it."

And that is where Yoda and Obi-Wan go wrong.

What?? Yoda and Obi-Wan were wrong for not letting the dark side conquer Anakin's destiny? Or for letting Anakin fulfill his destiny? Either way, that doesn't make sense. Redemption is the name of the name of the game in Star Wars, like it or not.


"I can't kill my Father."
-Luke

"Then the Emperor has already won."
-Obi Wan

It seems that Obi-Wan's intentions are clear right then.

Obi-Wan himself NEVER says "kill", he specifically says "confront". You can't take this quote out of context. However, Luke DOES have to be ready for the possibility that if there is nothing of Anakin left inside he will have to be destroyed to end the tyranny of the Sith. Luke has to do what's necessary to secure the Galaxy, even if it means killing his father. However, the Force could have other alternatives, hence the word "confront".


No, he only gives Luke his own point of view. He never tells Luke that Anakin can be redeemed.

Yes, he gives Luke his own point of view, that's all he can do. But he sees BOTH sides of Anakin, the good man and friend, as well as the Sith Lord. And he makes sure that Luke knows both sides. He never tells Luke outright that he can be redeemed, but he doesn't say that he CAN'T be either. Luke has to decide on his own, he must let the Force guide him.


Yoda says this because he is suprised that Vader still recognizes his Anakin "persona." But when he says, "...and unfortunate." That is when he is saying that Luke was not ready for that emotional conflict.

Isn't that what I just said?

 

The way the ending of RotS now stands, it seems clear to me that to Obi-Wan, "Anakin" Skywalker truly DIED, spiritually, in RotS. At the end of the duel, when Obi-Wan does what is unthinkable to him and takes off Anakin's limbs, it's because he was then "killing" Vader, not Anakin. As long as he thought that "Anakin" lived, it's difficult to believe that Obi-Wan would leave him for dead.

The separation of the Anakin/Vader persona in Obi-Wan's mind in the OT is pretty complete. He tells Luke stories about "Anakin", his father. Luke was conceived in love when his father was "Anakin" not Vader. He never tells Luke in the OT to go kill his "father" because his heroic father, a "good friend" to Obi-Wan, was long dead, betrayed and stifled to death by the evil persona, Vader. Obi-Wan simply does not acknowledge that Vader is Luke's father. Only Luke is able to do that, but with qualification. "I have accpeted the truth that you were once Anakin Skywalker, my father."

Yoda's words in RotS and ESB seem to indicate that he didn't think that getting redeemed was possible. We have to keep in mind that Obi-Wan and Yoda actually saw the aftermath of Anakin's darkest deeds at the Temple. It would be difficult for them to forget that.

However, both Obi-Wan AND Yoda believe in the OT that the prophecy will be fulfilled, and by Vader. They didn't clearly see how exactly it would come about - but somehow knew that it would involve Luke. So, if they both wanted Luke to "face" Vader, and yet, his own "cave test" involved NOT killing Vader, then we have to assume that they both thought Luke had to "kill" the Vader personality and "liberate" Anakin's soul.

Otherwise, why was it a failure on Luke's part when he chopped off Vader's head in the cave?

 

My friends, Anakin Skywalker was cloaked in darkness since before the events of TPM.

The fact that he became a Jedi was somewhat ironic, but in order to bring balance to the force, both absolutes (Jedi/Sith) needed to be eradicated. Anakin did both.

Long live the new order of the Jedi.

 

That is your interpretation. I have offered an equally plausible alternative.

Anakin: From my point of view the Jedi are evil!

Obi-Wan: The you are LOST![/b]

Obi-Wan does not say: "I'm sorry you feel that way. If you ever change your mind, I'll welcome you back."

He says lost in the sense of: wasted, not worth saving.

The possibility of redemption here isn't even an issue, especially when he believes Anakin is going to die shortly. And you can't take a quote said in the heat of emotional battle and apply it to a situation over 20 years in the future, after they've all had considerable time to think.

Obi-Wan says "were", past tense. Like Anakin has chosen to not follow his destiny, not to be the Chosen One.

But even so, if he believed Anakin was nothing but a monster why didn't he finish him off?

You answered your own question. Obi-Wan does not believe Anakin would live without the proper medical attention. And who does Obi-Wan think he would get that from?

What?? Yoda and Obi-Wan were wrong for not letting the dark side conquer Anakin's destiny? Or for letting Anakin fulfill his destiny? Either way, that doesn't make sense. Redemption is the name of the name of the game in Star Wars, like it or not.

No, you misuderstood me. I meant Yoda and Obi-Wan were wrong in thinking that Anakin wouldn't turn back.

Obi-Wan himself NEVER says "kill", he specifically says "confront". You can't take this quote out of context. However, Luke DOES have to be ready for the possibility that if there is nothing of Anakin left inside he will have to be destroyed to end the tyranny of the Sith. Luke has to do what's necessary to secure the Galaxy, even if it means killing his father. However, the Force could have other alternatives, hence the word "confront".

When Luke says that there is still good in Anakin, Obi-Wan reminds him that Anakin is no more (the twisted and evil remark). When Luke says he can't kill Vader, Obi-Wan says that the Emperor has already won, and that Luke was their last hope.

He never tells Luke outright that he can be redeemed, but he doesn't say that he CAN'T be either.

On the contrary, Obi-Wan specifically says that Anakin was destroyed, no more.

Isn't that what I just said?

I guess I misread what you said.

 

Isn't this really a conflict of mind and heart?

My answer is its both.

While Obi Wan and Yoda know from expperience, and have prepared for logically and morally that Anakin is lost, there is still that little voice which nibbles at their heart.

However, I don not believe they were acting on it. They were acting according to what they felt was the will of the Force, and they knew that Luke needed to face his father, and that the force would decide the outcome.

It took Luke to realize, on his own, that there was still good in his father. No one could tell him that.

Fianlly the thing that bugs me is that Vader tells Luke "Obi Wan once thought as you do."

Obi Wan during the whole final duel with Anakin never makes this known to Anakin, and certainly not the audience. Am I just supposed to assume that Ankin could FEEL this feeling from Anakin, unitl Obi Wan admits...Well then you are lost! (and may a point out the issue is about the point of view of either Palpatine or the JEdi being evil, not weather Anakin can still choose differently)