main
side
curve
  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

Senate This thread is publicly owned (marxism, socialism, and left-wing ideologies)

Discussion in 'Community' started by 3sm1r, Aug 31, 2020.

  1. Bor Mullet

    Bor Mullet Force Ghost star 8

    Registered:
    Apr 6, 2018
    Total and willful ignorance. I would quote Herodotus, wherein he talks about the Palestinian-Syrians as an ethnic group that’s distinct from the surrounding Phoenicians, and that reside in the area of modern day Palestine, but there’s no need.
     
    InterestingLurker likes this.
  2. Lord Vivec

    Lord Vivec Chosen One star 9

    Registered:
    Apr 17, 2006
  3. DarthPhilosopher

    DarthPhilosopher Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Jan 23, 2011
    Firstly, this seems to be mostly born out of the experience of Lithuania under the Soviet Union and communism, which became an expression of Russian imperialism, rather than a general trend in Western democracies to ban communist parties.

    Secondly, the experience in Germany shows that while you can ban an organisation the general ideas of a party cannot really be banned in a liberal democracies. It’ll be a matter of the idea of no private property being rebrand.

    Thirdly, wouldn’t many of these other parties be banned if the communist parties had their way?
     
    Mar17swgirl likes this.
  4. Jabba-wocky

    Jabba-wocky Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    May 4, 2003
    All of that is entirely correct. It seems kind of absurd to suggest that the US at the height of the Red Scare and Cold War didn't think to undertake the "end goal of capitalist countries." This level of missed opportunity really implies that this could not be the goal.
     
  5. Lord Vivec

    Lord Vivec Chosen One star 9

    Registered:
    Apr 17, 2006
    I'm sorry, I wasn't clear about what my post was supposed to be.

    Yes, I would 100% be for banning partisan activities whose goals are to liberalize sectors of the economy and pursue private ownership of business. My goals and means have always been in the open.

    That post of mine wasn't meant to be a cry of anguish at a perceived injustice against me or my kind. It was a warning towards my fellow leftists in the West. The western left right now hates Putin and is willing to support anything they think is a slight against Putin. It's a warning to them that some of these actions are actually attacks against them so that when they find themselves in a position where it's illegal for them to agitate for their left wing economic views, it's not a surprise. That's why it's posted in the leftism thread and not in, say, the Russia thread. The audience of this post is specifically for leftists as a warning.

    I get that you personally believe that Lithuania as an institution feels some kind of pain at the Soviets and this is meant to heal some of that pain. It's not. It's meant to quash the left in its country. Lithuania is not a country on the pathway to socialism (which is a goal you have claimed to have in the past). It's a country on the pathway to unfettered capitalism. And using its populace's dislike of Russia as the means to quash leftism in the country is all it's thinking about here.
     
  6. DarthPhilosopher

    DarthPhilosopher Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Jan 23, 2011
    I don’t think this is a Western wide phenomenon, as you’re suggesting. It’s isolated to ex-Soviet or ex-communist countries who suffered under Russian imperialism which was at the time implemented by communists. Now, I don’t agree that banning communist parties is right or correct, but as I said I think the scope of this in the West is exaggerated and I think it’s ultimately ineffective (you can just rebrand yourselves, like the far right did in Germany).

    I think as our material conditions change that our economy and social organisation will change, and that ultimately we could functionally have some type of ‘socialist’ arrangement. I don’t think this is going to happen in the near, or likely even medium, term (although it’s hard to predict technological progress). I don’t agree with the idea of the vanguard party or trying to force the creation of a socialist system by force in the near term, nor do I agree with elements of Marxist theory (like the labour theory of value, for example). I don’t agree that we’re inextricably on the path to some sort of fascist state lest communists save us from it. I don’t believe in the idea that capitalism just gets worse and worse until it’s too late. I actually think that the lives of the average person under capitalism are improving at a rate which is better than it would be if we suddenly changed to a command economy, and I think the suffering you can point to (which we all agree we need to do more about) is and would exist under any communist arrangement.
     
    Last edited: Mar 28, 2024
  7. Jabba-wocky

    Jabba-wocky Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    May 4, 2003
    I will just observe. Vivec has interesting, important, firsthand experience in Asia yhst gave him insights no one else in the US had. He and we would have ridiculed the idea of claiming deep insight into the social processes of a country halfway around the world.

    I’m not sure who of us has spent enough time in or around Lithuania to build a whole theory around what the legislature did there.
     
  8. DarthPhilosopher

    DarthPhilosopher Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Jan 23, 2011
    You’re right Wocky, I could be completely off, but I think we can make an educated guess based upon what we know of Lithuanian history.

    The Baltic states have always being particularly resistant to Russia imperialism, firstly as they were part of the Russian Empire as non-Slavs, and then after their brief independence following the First World War were occupied and then annexed by the Soviet Union (an occupation and annexation they never accepted as legal even after 1991). They were the first states to secede from the Soviet Union and are among the most enthusiastic states with respect to NATO. The Baltic states have a long history of being occupied by the Russian Empire and resistance to those occupations. It’s understandable that they are particularly belligerent against anything which could be seen as Russian aggression. When you read the stated purpose of the legislation, they are framing it as ‘de-Nazification’ as they associate communism as being part of latter-day Russian imperialism which oppressed them for so many years.

    Again, there could be something I’m missing here, but I think it’s pretty straightforward why they want this legislation and how other trends like this is the region (for example in Ukraine and Poland) are not really an expression of capitaliism protecting private property, but rather the deep-seeded association between communism and imperialism that these nations have. My understanding is that the party is already banned, and has been since ‘91, and that this is simply a bill which would recognise its actions as criminal. I also don’t see how this bill would make the very idea of being a communist criminal itself.
     
    Last edited: Mar 28, 2024
  9. Lord Vivec

    Lord Vivec Chosen One star 9

    Registered:
    Apr 17, 2006
    I can be and am sympathetic to countries that have people who are upset about trauma induced to them by an imperialist neighbor. Russia as a country has historically been that way for centuries towards them. It just always seems to me that the forces of capital seem to be spared this retribution. Maybe with what Lithuania is doing in mind, you might be more sympathetic to countries in Africa that, say, overthrew pro-French leaders recently, for example.

    However that aside, as a leftist I am vigilant about what happens to left wing parties all around the world.
     
    darkspine10 likes this.
  10. 3sm1r

    3sm1r Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Dec 27, 2017
    People usually say this, that being originally from a country provides deeper insights for the political discussion about that country.
    I've mixed feelings about this.
    On one side, there is more first-hand experience about the policies, and of course there is a tendency to talk more often about things that interest us more directly.
    On the other hand, people who live there -or are from there, to a lesser extent- also tend to be more exposed to various biases and propaganda.
    And of course, those from abroad have more detachment toward the facts, which makes it harder to connect empatethically but sometimes it also offer a more objective perspective.
     
    DarthPhilosopher likes this.
  11. Darth Guy

    Darth Guy Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Aug 16, 2002
    I'm sure it's just a coincidence that these countries banning communist parties are ruled by right-wing or "centrist" regimes. That said, I wonder if Lithuania's communist party is as much of a joke as the current Russian iteration.
    What are you talking about? Just because the US didn't outright ban the CPUSA (it's easier to legally ban political parties in most other countries) doesn't mean they and other leftists weren't relentlessly persecuted-- to great success, I might add. There is still extreme hostility to anything mildly left from the state, as should be obvious.
     
    Last edited: Mar 28, 2024
  12. DarthPhilosopher

    DarthPhilosopher Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Jan 23, 2011
    I’m not sure if you’re referring to a particular comment I made about the recent coups in Mali, Burkina Faso, Niger, and Gabon against French backed governments, but my general position is that it’s completely understandable from the people who live there.

    I believe my comments were that some of the rights the people were looking for were unlikely to be granted, especially as Russia was backing the coups, but they weren’t exactly given rights under the French in any case. The dynamics in these countries are usually a fair bit more complex than Eastern Europe, so I can’t really comment on whether any of the military groups who took power actually seem like they could bring stability and prosperity to their countries, but I empathise with the populations’ anti-French sentiment.
     
    Last edited: Mar 28, 2024
  13. Jabba-wocky

    Jabba-wocky Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    May 4, 2003
    And yet, very clearly, relentless persecution is not the same thing as outright banning. The consequences of the latter are definitively worse. For someone to have claimed a global plot to make all Communist parties is illegal is not defensible. Most especially somewhere they have never lived, and in relation to communities with which they have no deep ties. Hyperbole is not helpful.
     
  14. Lord Vivec

    Lord Vivec Chosen One star 9

    Registered:
    Apr 17, 2006
  15. InterestingLurker

    InterestingLurker Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Jun 15, 2011
    Last edited: Apr 19, 2024
  16. DarthPhilosopher

    DarthPhilosopher Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Jan 23, 2011
    These are the same people you’re expecting the revolution from?
     
  17. Lord Vivec

    Lord Vivec Chosen One star 9

    Registered:
    Apr 17, 2006
    I gave up on the western left a long time ago.
     
  18. Lowbacca_1977

    Lowbacca_1977 Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Jun 28, 2006
    Vivec's mostly waiting for Red Dawn now so he can fight Wolverines
     
    Bor Mullet and TCF-1138 like this.
  19. Lord Vivec

    Lord Vivec Chosen One star 9

    Registered:
    Apr 17, 2006
    I just understand that US and western countries foreign policy inherently supports power structures that exploit the poor of the global south. The western left instead wants to purity test the people of the global south before deciding to oppose those power structures.
     
    InterestingLurker likes this.
  20. gezvader28

    gezvader28 Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Mar 22, 2003

    ... 'duh!
     
  21. InterestingLurker

    InterestingLurker Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Jun 15, 2011
  22. Lord Vivec

    Lord Vivec Chosen One star 9

    Registered:
    Apr 17, 2006


    I'm sure the answer is going to shock you, but it's the nature of capitalism. We have a system that exists to extract from us every it can in order to increase the wealth of a select few.
     
  23. Alpha-Red

    Alpha-Red Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Apr 25, 2004
    I mean, I could say that exact same sentence and then say that the problem is too much capitalism, and that the answer is a social democracy.
     
    anakinfansince1983 likes this.
  24. DarthPhilosopher

    DarthPhilosopher Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Jan 23, 2011
    Yes, it’s true that sometimes when liberalism goes into a downturn the result is fascism. But unlike what is said in the video that is not always the case. Suggesting otherwise is implies some sort of determinism - i.e. liberalism breaks down and you either have fascism or revolution. It’s not particularly profound when a system breaks down that alternatives are found; but the solutions have never only been fascism and communism. He literally mentions one of the alternatives - the New Deal.

    The issue with these ML videos is that they take an obvious and uncontroversial point - that systemic issues exist and that they have come about under liberalism - but they suppose that these issues are both inevitable and intractable under liberalism, leading to the conclusion that a completely new system is needed. With second thought in particular the details of any solutions are extremely spare - am I to take away from this that the idea of the American Dream was solely the result of the American economic dominance, and that therefore was always based upon the unjustified exploitation of other states (a somewhat simplistic conception of how economic relations works, but anyway), in which case what is the point of lamenting its destruction? The conclusion which he’s leading to, but not saying, is that no one should expect something like the American Dream, and we should all expect less. Or is he proposing that an ‘American Dream’ equivalent is attainable under ML, in which case why does he not go into any detail at all on this point?
     
  25. Lord Vivec

    Lord Vivec Chosen One star 9

    Registered:
    Apr 17, 2006
    Yes, you could. You have a history of making ill-thought out conclusions so I don't know why you're acting like I'd be surprised that you would do that here too. I have the feeling you can't even tell me the difference between social democracy and socialism.
    he doesn't go into details of the solution because 1) that would make the video extremely long and his videos tend to be shorter and 2) the point of these videos is to get people to question capitalism. You forget we live in the US and doing so here is haram.