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PT Thoughts/General Discussion: Attack of the Clones

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by Darth Zannah, Nov 13, 2014.

  1. Darth Invictus

    Darth Invictus Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Aug 8, 2016
    I always loved the battle in the arena, and Yoda showing up with the gunships is an awesome scene. Dooku and through him Christopher Lee really shine and the Kaminoan scenes are awesome.
  2. heels1785

    heels1785 JCC Manager star 9 Staff Member Manager

    Dec 10, 2003
    Agreed. Love it.

    Mod voice now, ahem.

    I've never liked the title of this thread, so I changed it. Not quite so negative.
    MarcJordan, Tonyg, wobbits and 3 others like this.
  3. Force Smuggler

    Force Smuggler Force Ghost star 7

    Sep 2, 2012
    AOTC had Coruscant as a whole, Palpatine as a master manipulator, Across the Stars, the seismic charges, Geonosis, Kamino, the Execution Arena, the Reek, Nexu and Axley, Yoda using the Force and a lightsaber, Anakin attempting to use 2 lightsabers, Christopher Lee as Count Dooku, the Separatist Council, the Jedi Army rescuing Obi-Wan and friends, that Super Battle Droid shoving the Battle Droid out of the way, the Geonosian sonic weapons, Obi-Wan inspecting the clones in formation. The music playing as well. Palpatine inspecting the clones at the end of the movie, Bail resignedly banging his fist, Love Theme and the Arena, the Battle of Geonosis, the sequence after the Clones shot down one of the TF Spheres and kicked up sand, the firefight was amazing, Etc.
  4. Deliveranze

    Deliveranze Force Ghost star 6

    Nov 28, 2015
    Definitely, and the Droid Factory scene gave us Anakin flexing his lightsaber skills on organic enemies. Plus, we got to explore more of Coruscanti culture, and the depth of the planet, whereas in TPM, it was more of a background planet.
  5. The Supreme Chancellor

    The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Master star 4

    Sep 4, 2012
    Intuition. Dooku is an arrogant, sarcastic, smarmy liar. No reason she couldn't have gotten the vibe from talking to him in negotiations that he had something to do with her assassination.
  6. MoffJacob

    MoffJacob Jedi Knight star 2

    Dec 25, 2015
    A lot can be said about the (overall, TLJ follows) worst SW movie (I'd rate it with 2,5 stars out of 5) or a 48%-55 on Rotten Tomatoes
    To be brief, I'll say that the pacing-plot, the stiff camera work and blatant CGI-environments, plus the artificial-laughable romantic dialogue TOTALLY ruin the movie for me, despite three sequences that stand out (Coruscant chase, Obi-Wan vs Jango and Geonosis Battle). Oh, and the movie has the WORST lightsaber duels of the saga (and yes, I liked Yoda vs Dooku, despite being lame next to Yoda vs Sidious)
    a necessary, if dull step, between the vastly superior (yet far from perfect) Episodes I and III
    Darth__Lobot and Doompup like this.
  7. Tonyg

    Tonyg Jedi Master star 4

    Jan 16, 2016
    Unique, mysterous, very different, very peculiar, very smooth. Yet it has the feeling of the galaxy far away an long ago best for me, for its almost victorian sense in everything: in the costumes, in the relationships, in the drama. The world building still amazes me.
  8. sheri1967

    sheri1967 Jedi Master star 1

    Jun 5, 2006
    We just watched it again last week, I personally love the movie but my young nephew pointed out that Anakin was almost like a stalker with Padme sometimes.
  9. Sith Lord 2015

    Sith Lord 2015 Jedi Master star 4

    Oct 30, 2015
    Poor kid having to grow up in such a PC-obsessed time. I hope he won't ever have to watch the OT or any of the Indiana Jones movies, which of course are all full of "stalking".
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2018
  10. The_Phantom_Calamari

    The_Phantom_Calamari Force Ghost star 5

    Nov 10, 2011
    Because she's a force pushing for peace and reconciliation. Dooku wants the Republic to adopt an aggressive and escalatory stance towards the Separatists for propaganda purposes. If Padme prevails in her efforts, Dooku's Separatist movement will be absorbed back into the Republic, lured by illusory promises of concession and accommodation. From Dooku's perspective, Padme and what she represents are far more dangerous to him than the militarists in the Republic. The prospect of peace is far more threatening to the radical Separatist movement than the prospect of war, and Padme knows this.

    Essentially, Padme thinks Dooku is a radical accelerationist intentionally agitating for a violent outcome to the crisis. The Jedi disagree.
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2018
  11. KyleKartan

    KyleKartan Jedi Grand Master star 3

    Feb 4, 2004
    Just rewatched Ep II for my Journey to Ep IX. Man I LOVE that movie sooo sooo much! It's such a bold and unique entry to the SW Universe and gave us sooooo many great things.

    The plot is very complex and big. Its great how Lucas webs the plots of Anakin/Padme and Obi-Wan together in the end and makes the movie come full circle. So many important stuff happening and its worked together great. I just wished for some extended stuff like more political discussions (YES) after Obi-Wans message from Geonosis. For example of course Palps and Mas Amedda want Padme to propose the emergency powers to the senate because she was greatly against the army from starts and leads the opposition. If she would vote for the army now it would have great impact in the senate. Its obvious but not said in the movie and its why Jar Jar successeds in the end. But some viewers could not get the full picture and understanding. Furthermore I'd love the see the deleted Senate scene of Padme addressing the senate after her first assasination attempt and some of those family scenes included.

    I really love all scenes of Anakin and Padme together and I dont get the critic about their acting or missing chemistry. They are great together (same goes for Hayden and Ewan). Haydens acting is so spot on. You can read all his emotions from his face and body language. It's fantastic how he worked some of Vaders Body language into Anakin, same for his way of speaking. And honestly I can feel the tension and attraction between Padme and Anakin from the start...all those scenes leading up to the fire place scene showing Padme in wonder and amazment of how much Anakin became a man. She is obviously attrackted to him from the first moment.

    As I said: Hayden and Ewan share some great chemistry can feel how they grew into Teacher and Student after Ep I and share lots of history. Their scenes on Coruscant really showcase the time they spend together and how they grew into a team and of course having their issues with one another. I jus love how Anakin became this powerfull young man and how he tries to proof himself to anybody and himself too.

    Episode II flashed me back as 2002 as 15 year old boy. I loved the plot, the characters, the effects, the battles. I very much fell in love with Anakin and Padme and was a big fan of Anakin Skywalker from that movie on. I really could connect to some of his characteristics and understood his affection for Padme. Its the movie out of all 10 I've seen the most and I still love it as much as back in 2002. Yeah it has some faults but overall its a very fantastic movie with lost of amazing visuals, a great score and relateable characters.


    PS: One thing I noticed just now: after the Love Pledge Anakin and Padme getting pulled into the arena. The camera moves to the left when they are entering the arena though the gate and you can see the big pillars of stone on the left. In the next shot you see them moving to the right towards the now right standing pillars. The gate they arrived the arena through is NOT behind them but in front of them. So I assume they were supposed to get pulled around the arena before getting chained to the pillars and that is why they move to the different side to the pillars then when they entered the arena. Another small part missing from the movie :(
    Check it out here from 1:29 to 1:44 and notice how all the doors you can see when they enter the arena are not in the other shot but back when you see them passing Obi-Wan. Also the balcony of Dooku, Poogle, Nute and Co is up right in the shot when they are pulled to the pillars but up left when they enter the arena.
    Last edited: Oct 2, 2019
  12. oierem

    oierem Jedi Master star 4

    Mar 18, 2009
    Attack of the Clones was the first film was was released after I had become a fan of the Saga, and the first one I got to see at the cinemas as a fan. I remember the anticipation, the weeks before the premiere, the day I got to watch it (which was a week after the premiere, for some reason), the magical experience that it was.... I loved it.
    Sith Lord 2015 and KyleKartan like this.
  13. Avnar

    Avnar Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Sep 20, 2007
    Still to this day - I have never seen a trailer for a film that got me as excited as this one! Literally nothing has come close. I went to see Ice Age just so I could see the trailer. My brother and I hid in the cinemas until the next session :D just to see it again!
    Sith Lord 2015 and KyleKartan like this.
  14. Deliveranze

    Deliveranze Force Ghost star 6

    Nov 28, 2015
    Attack of the Clones is the first Star Wars movie to really introduce more complex elements into the franchise. The Phantom Menace has hints of complexity, but overall fits in the same good vs evil archetypes as the OT.

    With the opening attack on Padme's diplomatic shuttle, the audience realizes this is a much darker time for the Republic. The foundation for the Clone Wars is a fascinating one. A galaxy torn apart by separatism and rebellion. Anakin, Obi-Wan, and Padme being right in the middle of an unjustified escalation of war.

    Also the mystery aspect. In the first half of the film, none of the characters are sure who the threat is. When Zam tries to assassinate Padme, disgruntled spice miners are their prime suspect in that moment. As the film continues, the lines between Republic and Empire and Separatist and Rebel blur.

    The film really has rose to become one of my favorite moments in SW history. Changed SW in a way that hasn't been seen since imo.
  15. KyleKartan

    KyleKartan Jedi Grand Master star 3

    Feb 4, 2004
    Indeed the threads in Ep II operate in a more grey area. The seps seem to have reason for splitting up with the Reps and their army works as insurance against the Jedi. But in the end we learn that the Seps are lead by a Sith and its a scheme. We just dont know the full plan.

    I remember how overly excited I was after the movie ended back in 2002 and I didnt know how the story would continue. I had bonded so much with the characters and when the whole Clone Wars books and comics were released it felt like a true continuation of the story. So my bond with the characters was even stronger and when Ep III hit the theaters I was a mess because of what happend...

    What I too love about Ep II is Anakins development. Its his first mission on his own and you can feel it. The moment he left Coruscant he does what he wants, does not act how he is supposed to be and more on instinct (just like Qui-Gon told him before the Pod-Race mind you). He really is his own man and can do what he wants and you can feel how this relives him. The scene were he finds his mother is acted so very well and great. I cant grasp how Hayden got bashed for his performance. I think its amazing! And when I see Padmes eyes on the refugee ship, during the first kiss scene, during the pinic you see her affection for him, you see how she is drawn to him. Natalie too did a great job. The only line I dont like is her "whats wrong Ani" when they are in the Lars Homestedt garage and Anakin looks at his hands before he admits killing the Tuskens. She could have done that a little later and a little more concerned.

    Another little detail I just caught: when they arrive at the Lars Farm Padme wears her blue belly free dress and a robe. She wears it till Anakin leaves for searching his mother. When he returns she wears a dark blue poncho style dress. At Shmis funeral she wears her white battle outfit. I assume she went to her ship between Anakin leaving and R2 getting Kenobis message to get some things and dresses for the next days.
  16. Alexrd

    Alexrd Force Ghost star 6

    Jul 7, 2009
    Yes, the Separatist movement has legitimacy. They see the corruption in the Republic and don't want to be part of it. But just like the Republic, they are being controlled by the Sith, and both Sith Lords drive each faction to conflict with each other for their own purposes. Dooku, by secretly planning to use the armies provided by the corporations to attack the Republic, and Sidious, by taking advantage of the fear of an impending Separatist attack to get the emergency powers that place him in full control of the Republic, which allows him to get the clone army and use it against the Separatists.

    "There are heroes on both sides. Evil is everywhere."
  17. Samuel Vimes

    Samuel Vimes Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Sep 4, 2012
    Well, knowing that I am kind of being the grouchy old man that yells at the kids to get off his lawn.

    TPM and AotC were only mediocre to me, some good bits and some bad bits leaving the films only slightly above average.

    Acting was uneven, as was the writing and the directing.
    Not bad but not that good either.

    Sure I saw the OT when I was a kid so there could be a bit of a bias.
    But then again I saw the animated LotR film when I was a kid and I hold the three PJ films as vastly superior.

    About AotC, what I like is Obi-Wan. Ewan is given more to do and does it well, and his subplot is good and engaging.
    I could have done without the scene where he could not figure out that the file on Kamino being gone was that someone had removed it.
    That made him a little too dumb to me.

    Christofer Lee is in the film and that is always a plus to me and he is good in the part. I think he could have benefitted from more screen-time.

    There is a fair amount of action and the pacing is better than TPM, which had some pacing problems.

    The overall political situation is interesting and I wanted political plotting in these films.

    But less good thing;
    Anakin, I found him very unlikable, he was rude, arrogant, self-centered and the way he acted towards Padme was more than a little creepy. In all, he grated on me and I wanted him off the screen and that I doubt was the intention.
    This caused two major problems, one I could not buy the romance at all and two, when his mother died, I did not feel very sorry for him. I felt sorry for Shmi, who I did like in TPM. But the tragedy was undercut by my feeling of dislike towards Anakin.

    What did not make much sense is that if the seps are fed up with the corruption in the senate and then think that a government made up by the TF and the other corporations would be any less corrupt. The TF were behind a lot of the corruption in the senate in TPM.
    So why would systems that are fed up with that think that the TF will do a better job running their own government?
    To me it would have more sense that the TF would side with the senate, as they are benefitting from all the corruption and the seps are made up of smaller systems that want to leave because they feel that the senate is controlled by big business and don't care about the "little guy".
    Also the seps have demands but what those are is never said.

    In general I think the film tries to be complex but only ends up being complicated.
    And the difference, to me, is that something complex can be said very quickly but has a lot of depth and layers the more you look at it.
    Ex Vader being Luke's father. That is said very quickly but it adds a lot of complexity. Did Yoda and Obi-Wan know? If they did, why did they lie. What will Luke do, will he be forced to kill his father, can he even do that?
    Something being complicated is instead just adding more and more problems.
    Like driving a car with a flat tire, in a blizzard, while drunk and there is also an earthquake going on.

    The mystery is spoiled very early with Padme saying that she thinks Dooku is behind it and no surprise, he is.
    I think the film again tried to be a mystery and tried to make it unclear if Dooku was a bad guy or not.
    However I don't think it worked. The opening crawl makes him sound up to no good. Padme thinks he is a murderer and since we have never seen him before, we have no reason to doubt her. Why she thinks this is never made clear and from what she would know, he would not be a likely suspect. But since Dooku does not show up until halfway through the film, we need this scene to establish him.
    This is one example of why I think the writing is uneven.

    Plus when we first see Dooku, it is confirmed that he was behind the attack on Padme and he plans to make a sneak attack on the republic and most if not all the other seps are onboard with that. Showing that he is a bad guy and so are the rest of the seps.
    So the films don't really show "There are heroes on both sides" it is just telling us.
    "Show, don't tell."

    Blackboard Monitor
  18. The_Phantom_Calamari

    The_Phantom_Calamari Force Ghost star 5

    Nov 10, 2011
    It's also significant that the corruption, as we see in Episode I, is in large part driven by the corrosive influence of the megacorporations which have infiltrated the political process. And yet the Separatists, ostensibly rebelling against this corruption, nonetheless find themselves turning to these very same megacorporations in order to survive. This is often criticized as a plot hole, but it's actually the whole point. It's the same process you see playing out again and again in real life. Big money actors always seem to find a way to co-opt reform movements and turn them to their own ends. ("Vote for me to bring Wall Street bankers back in line! Oh yeah, also Wall Street bankers are funding my campaign.")

    And this is reinforced even more in TCW, where it's made clear that the megacorporations' loyalties are actually divided between the Republic and the Separatists. They're playing both sides, it's completely obvious they're playing both sides, and yet everyone's just letting them do it. Everyone's been inside the big money bubble for so long--they've become so habituated to it--that they can't even imagine there might be another option besides just rolling over and letting these megacorporations shamelessly exploit them.
    Last edited: Oct 3, 2019
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  19. Alexrd

    Alexrd Force Ghost star 6

    Jul 7, 2009
    The corporations are, at the end of the day, apolitical. Senators and politicians who allow themselves to be corrupted by someone or something for their selfish interests at the expense of the people/institution they serve, are the cause of the problem.

    I don't see the separatists turning to the corporations for help as a plot hole. The separatists do want armies and the corporations are willing to provide them. Corruption would be to compromise their ideals and what they stand for by doing something that goes against that, and a deal doesn't necessarily include corruption.

    Dooku is corrupt, and as the representative of the separatists he doesn't care about any of that one way or the other. I doubt the separatist systems that are part of the movement are aware of Dooku's corruption.
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  20. Samuel Vimes

    Samuel Vimes Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Sep 4, 2012
    What does the films show us of the seps?
    And I only care about the films, what is in TCW does not matter, this is the movie forum and we are talking about the films.

    Well the ones we see are the ones with Dooku at the meeting in AotC. The TF, the CG, the Banking clan, the Techno Union etc.
    Big corporations all of them.
    And we are told that with their support, the seps would become much larger than what they currently are.
    And with some of them Dooku casually talks about trying to murder senator Padme. And none of the others offered any objection.

    And at the meeting he discussed their plan, which was to build a big droid army and attack the republic, which did not have an army as far as the others knew. Overwhelm the Jedi and enforce their demands at gun point.
    And yet hardly anyone spoke against this plan and they seemed totally ok with that.
    And this plan had been in the works for some time it seemed and all the while the seps had been "negotiating" with the senate.

    In all it paints the seps as pretty much all bad guys. Their side is not given much depth or detail, they are mostly just greedy, evil merchants.
    If there are "regular" seps we don't see or hear much of them or see if they are ok with Dooku's plan or if he is fooling them.

    Take just after TPM, would Padme or the people of Naboo feel satisfaction and gratitude to the senate/republic over their support in the conflict with the TF?
    I doubt it. They would, justifiably if you ask me, feel betrayed and abandoned by the senate/republic.
    The TF blockaded their world in their disagreement with the senate and said senate was unable to do anything about it.
    Then the TF went and invaded their world, likely killing a fair few people. And yet after risking life and limb, queen Padme came to Coruscant to beg for help. Only to be disbelieved and dismissed with talk about a committee verifying what she just said as being true. So Padme had to go back and deal with this issue herself.

    Again, she and the Naboo would justifiable wonder why they are a part of the republic when it left them hung out to dry like this.
    Adding to that, Nute went through four trials and did not even get a slap on the vrist for what he did.
    The senate is clearly run by the big companies and is corrupt..
    So why trust that those same big companies can run their own government and not be corrupt?

    And to other small systems, once word of this gets out, they saw the TF commit an act of gross overreach and violation of another worlds sovereignty and while they lost, they were not punished for it.
    So that such worlds would also wonder why they are a part of this republic, why would they jump into bed with the TF and others?
    The TF would been seen as thugs and bullies, and also a bit pathetic given how they lost to a vastly inferior force in TPM.

    That they felt threatened by the republic?
    The republic has no army at the start of AotC so it can not use any military might against the seps.
    But, based on what the crawl said, the seps are the ones causing trouble and unrest. So much so that the Jedi can no longer keep the peace.
    If the seps just want to leave, why would there be a lot of fighting?
    Is the republic not letting them?
    Is the army to keep them in the republic by force?
    I rather doubt that as I think the jedi would take issue with that.

    So the seps are getting increasingly hostile, to the point that Mace thinks that if talks with them fail, they could attack the republic.
    So the senate is discussing a plan to build a republic army to help the Jedi keep the peace.

    The seps don't like that, which makes sense. But how long has Dooku been working on the plan to build his droid army and attack?
    Before or after the senate started talking about an army for the republic?

    If before, then the seps never had much intention of seceding in peace but always planned to use force to get what they want.
    If after, Dooku's plan was to attack and the senate had not yet given the ok to a republic army.
    And yet Dooku thought that with this big army and attacking the weak republic, other systems would join them.
    I can not think of how Dooku attacking a republic that has no army yet and thrashes them, how is this paints the republic as the bad guys and makes Dooku into the hero?
    The republic was thinking of making an army in case the seps turn violent and the seps attack before they can do so, proving that the republic's fear was quite justified, the seps did turn violent.

    Blackboard Monitor
  21. Alexrd

    Alexrd Force Ghost star 6

    Jul 7, 2009
    All of those corporations are not the separatists. They are corporations. Dooku is the leader/representative of the separatists in that secret meeting, and he's trying to make a deal with the corporations in order to get a droid army.

    Why? It's explained by Dooku:

    "As I explained to you earlier, I am quite convinced that 10000 more systems will rally to our cause with your support, gentlemen."

    Why would the separatists want an army? It's explained by Padmé:

    "Do you see any way through negotiations to bring the separatists back into the Republic?" - Queen Jamillia
    "Not if they feel threatened. My guess is they'll turn to the Trade Federations or the Commerce Guilds for help." - Padmé

    Why would they feel threatened? Because the Republic is debating the creation of an army of their own.

    There are separatists, as established many times in the movies. We don't see them because we don't need to. We are told what they are, why they are leaving and that Dooku (in his public persona) leads and represents them. We don't need to see more to understand what's going on.
  22. Emperor Ferus

    Emperor Ferus Chosen One star 7

    Jul 29, 2016
    In the middle of my ranking. Used to be much lower, before I more greatly appreciated the aspects of it that appealed to me all along.

    The transition of Anakin between the kid in TPM and the man in ROTS is great, especially his scenes on Tatooine and Geonosis. Not without slapstick, although this is less of an issue. I love the dark tone of AOTC mixed with some lingering youthful charm of TPM, though less.
    The battle of Geonosis is great, as is the speeder chase and the lightsaber duel despite my preference for OT Yoda’s appearance.

    That said, I do share some common criticisms of the love story, both in terms of the dialogue and Anakin’s behavior in the first act. Not a deal-breaker by any means, but a detraction nonetheless. I also feel as though the villains, especially Dooku, leave a lot to be desired.
  23. AEHoward33

    AEHoward33 Jedi Knight star 3

    Aug 11, 2019
    Hmmmm . . . interesting. Because after their fireside chat, Padme seemed to be the one "stalking" Anakin. Well, at least to me.

    I have to be honest. I found Han's behavior toward Leia in the first half of "The Empire Strikes Back" more disturbing . . . especially after they had made their escape from Hoth.
    Last edited: Oct 3, 2019
  24. Doompup

    Doompup Jedi Knight star 1

    Jan 22, 2017
    I just rewatched AOTC as I’m building up to Episode IX.
    In regards to Dooku killing Padmé, it was a condition put forth by the Trade Federation for them joining the Separatist movement. Obi-Wan hears them telling Dooku that when he is eavesdropping. I forgot about that dialogue.
    Last edited: Oct 6, 2019
  25. oierem

    oierem Jedi Master star 4

    Mar 18, 2009
    I like that the element that generates the whole plot (Padme's assassination attempts) is ultimately insignificant, but leads to a much bigger threat. It works like a McGuffin is supposed to work: it puts every character in motion, yet ultimately is not relevant to the story.