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PT Thoughts/General Discussion: Attack of the Clones

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by Darth Zannah, Nov 13, 2014.

  1. Samuel Vimes

    Samuel Vimes Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Sep 4, 2012
    As far as the films go, they are the seps.
    They are what we see of the seps and in RotS they are called "The separatists leaders."
    So in the films, they are what we see of the seps and they are the leaders of said seps.

    So the films show the seps as being largely the TF, Banking clan, Techno Union etc.
    Esp since Dooku says that with the support of the TF and others, the seps will become much larger.

    Also, the crawl says that the seps have been causing problems, unrest and disrupting the peace.
    So much so that the Jedi can no longer keep the said peace.
    And Mace says that if negotiations with the seps fail, then there won't be enough Jedi to PROTECT the republic. Implying that the seps will attack and also implying that they have some sort of military capabilities already.

    As for Dooku, given what he said, the plan to make a droid army has been going on for some time.
    If he started this plan before or after the senate started debating an army for the republic is not made clear.
    But what is clear is that he isn't doing this to have an army as deterrent in case the republic gets an army and threatens to use it. He plans to attack an unsuspecting republic, which does not have an army at this stage.
    At least as far as the other people at that table knew.
    And all of those people were totally onboard with attacking the republic unprovoked and overwhelm the Jedi and make their demands at gunpoint.
    Did the other "normal" seps knew about what Dooku was doing?
    That he was building a droid army and planned to attack the republic, regardless if the republic had an army or not?
    If they did know and nothing implies they didn't. Then they too are fine with what he is planning to do.
    Attack a weak republic and enforce their demands.

    Padme had no idea about this so her view of the seps is questionable.
    Plus she said that Dooku was trying to murder her. And he is the leader of the seps.
    Did they know about that? Were they ok with that?
    If yes then the seps are willing to murder advocates of peace.

    Except we aren't told why they want to leave or what their demands are.
    Dooku says that they will make the senate agree to all their demands but what those are we don't know.

    And if the film wanted to show a difference between the TF, Techo union and all those and the "regular" seps then you DO need to show that.
    If the film wanted to establish that the TF and co are not representative of the average seps and that the some of the seps are "good people".
    They that has to be shown.
    Otherwise the film is only showing the TF and co as the seps and thus creating an image of them as being what the seps are like.

    Take ANH, we see several imperial officers and they are not all the same but are any of them shown to be "good guys"?
    Not to me.
    So what image is ANH trying to establish about the empire?
    That they are not nice people, they are the "bad guys".
    So if you try to argue that these officers are just the "bad apples" of the empire and that the other high ranking members in the empire are not like that.
    Then you have no basis for that.
    And if you argue that the film is NOT presenting the imperials as the bad guys, just those we see and they are not supposed to be representative of the empire as a whole. Then that is not an argument that I can buy.

    Lucas made a choice to show the seps as mostly the TF and co and they are called seps leaders in RotS.
    So then they are examples of the seps and since they are the only examples we see, then the audience is totally justified in thinking that the TF and co are representative of the seps as a whole.
    Arguing that the "regular" seps are totally different and not at all what the TF and co are, that has no basis in the films.
    And if the films wanted to establish that then it does need to be shown.

    Old Stoneface
    Doompup likes this.
  2. devilinthedetails

    devilinthedetails Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Jun 19, 2019
    General Thoughts on Attack of the Clones:

    -This is probably the Star Wars movie that my opinion most shifted on as I grew and re-watched it. When I first watched it when I was eleven, I mainly enjoyed the Obi-Wan parts since I found Anakin annoying with how he disrespected Obi-Wan and the romance between Padme and Anakin to be cringe-worthy. As I got older, I began to appreciate more that Anakin was going through a period of turmoil and so found him a more sympathetic, complex, and tragic character. I also began to understand the Anakin and Padme romance more in the context of a prelude to tragedy than a traditional, idealistic type romance and felt that it was successful at being that in a way it didn't work for me as a pure romance.

    -The opening with the assassination attempt on Amidala is gritty and chaotic and brings me right into the movie every time.

    -Palpatine has this wonderfully creepy vibe in all his scenes. I can really see him manipulating events so Anakin and Padme are reunited. Very cunning.

    -Padme is a powerful speaker, and I really admire her commitment to peace and to her principles that she shows in her Senate speech.

    -I do love the banter between Obi-Wan and Anakin as they ride up to Padme's apartment. Sort of sets the stage for their friendship dynamic in ROTS, which is one of my favorite dynamics ever in Star Wars.

    -Padme's apartment is just very visually appealing to me. The architecture and décor has an interesting blend of classical and modern. I like it.

    -Anakin's discussion of his dreams about his mother suffering are moving to me. It shows how much being separated from her pains him and how much he suffers with guilt over leaving her behind in slavery on Tatooine. Very poignant to me. Also consistent with tragic heroes who often have prophetic, torturous type dreams in Greek and Shakespearean tragedy. We'll see that again in ROTS. Also it connects back to TPM when Anakin had a dream of freeing all the slaves on Tatooine. Anakin's dreams about his mother in AOTC are a good way of linking his childhood dreams of freeing slaves with his nightmares of Padme dying in ROTS.

    -The discussion about politics between Obi-Wan and Anakin is interesting. It shows how Obi-Wan is something of a cynic, doubting the intentions of just about every politician, while in contrast, Anakin is quicker to place his confidence in people such as Padme and Palpatine. He's not wrong to put his trust in Padme, but when he puts his trust in the wrong person, Palpatine, obviously the consequences are devastating.

    -Love the glimpses of Coruscant we see during the bounty hunter chase. Coruscant just feels like a real city that never sleeps in this part for me. Reminds me of an insanely big NYC but then I'm from the New York area.

    -"Why do I sense you're going to be the death of me?" and "You're the closest thing I have to a father" hit me right in the feels every time. Not gonna lie.

    -I enjoyed Padme's brief farewell to her handmaiden. Women don't have that many chances to interact with one another in Star Wars so it's nice when they do get to share a moment. That and Padme's grief over Corde worked well for me.

    -I really like the conversation between Anakin and Padme on the ship to Naboo. There's quite a bit of depth to Anakin's reasoning about how Jedi are encouraged to love.

    -Naboo is always gorgeous in a classical way, and I enjoy the conversation with Queen Jamilla. Her statement about how the day we stop believing in democracy is the day we lose it is very moving especially in the context of a Prequel Trilogy about the destruction of a great Republic.

    -The lake country of Naboo is simply lovely. Gives Anakin and Padme a traditional romantic background to accompany the prelude to their tragic relationship. That works well for me as a sort of contrast between the tragic story that will be told and the idyllic setting.

    -The conversation between Padme and Anakin during their picnic is intriguing. Padme obviously ends up thinking Anakin was joking, but the audience gets the sense that he was at least somewhat serious and this is groundwork for Anakin's decision to become Vader later on in the saga.

    -Some critique Dex's Diner as too 1950's Earth but it reminds me of diners I still see everywhere in NJ. Dex's Diner works well for me and is somewhere I can totally imagine Coruscanti grabbing a quick breakfast and caf at before work.

    -I love seeing the Jedi Archives. That's a place I'd love to explore for days.

    -So awesome to see the Jedi younglings being trained by Yoda. Jedi younglings are adorable.

    -Kamino has a really cool all white aesthetic and I always think about the ethics of human cloning and cloning in general during this part of the movie.

    -Shmi dying is heartbreaking to watch. I really feel Anakin's grief and rage. His slaughter of the Tusken Raiders manages to be both a repulsive action to me and one that I can understand as a sort of dark, vigilante justice. Anakin is wrong and even acknowledges that guilt himself in his conversation with Padme but at the same time there is something tragically understandable about his behavior. What Anakin did was wrong but even he seems to know that and be tortured by that as well as tortured by grief for his mother. His desire to be powerful enough to stop people from dying will be a very important motivator in ROTS and I thought this was a believable way to introduce that drive.

    -Love that Padme is so determined and clever about finding a way to save Obi-Wan. It's awesome when she tells Anakin that if he wants to protect her, he'll have to come with her as she tries to rescue Obi-Wan.

    -Geonosis is another visually interesting planet. There's something almost cathedral like about its spires and arches.

    -Padme's declaration of love to Anakin does show an important aspect of her character in that we see that just like in TPM and later in ROTS she is unflinching about the prospect of her own death. Padme isn't afraid to die. She accepts her death. The only thing she wants to do is ensure that she dies being true to her principles. In this case, her principles require declaring her love for Anakin before she dies. Padme is a very brave and strong character in that way.

    -The arena scene reminds me of an ancient Roman gladiator fight or something.

    -The Obi-Wan and Anakin confrontation when Padme falls from the ship to the sand dunes is always intense watching for me. The lines that pack the most punch for me are when Obi-Wan asks what Padme would do in Anakin's position and Anakin admits that she would do her duty. Just really shows how Padme (like Obi-Wan) is all about duty while Anakin is more about loyalty to those he loves.

    -The part where Yoda tells Obi-Wan that the Clone Wars have only just begun brings shivers to my spine every time.

    -Anakin and Padme's wedding manages to be beautiful, haunting, and somehow ominous at the same time.
  3. Sith Lord 2015

    Sith Lord 2015 Jedi Master star 4

    Oct 30, 2015
    Yes, that contrast is perfect. Actually those scenes on Naboo are the last, or rather only time SW actually gets "romantic". After that it's just short moments in an environment of chaos and tragedy, that includes the OT, which doesn't have real romantic moments. Not that I like romance per se, but in SW, which gets very dark later, those few moments of light-hearted innocent romance are a sharp contrast to the conflict that would soon appear. Most of all for Anakin, who would very soon afterwards find huge grief on Tatooine. I don't get how people have nothing good to say about the Naboo scenes. They are perfect and fit in very well into Anakin's tragedy. His turning evil would have much less impact if we had not seen him enjoying some moments of innocence and happiness. His later life became pure hell. He never had a happy carefree childhood, nor did he get a chance to enjoy his marriage. From the beginning, he was either away from his wife in battles or troubled with nightmares. So why not show us some rare instances when he was happy? That's why I like the fireplace scene. It really highlights Anakin's inner conflict and pain. ROTS, not to mention the OT, would have been much less effective without it.
  4. darthfettus2015

    darthfettus2015 Jedi Master star 3

    Nov 15, 2012
    Without doubt the worst star wars film but kinda like it anyway it has a great opening sequence and some of the best set pieces but just some really bad stuff too. This was obviously rushed and was too early for digital CGI technology
    Doompup likes this.
  5. devilinthedetails

    devilinthedetails Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Jun 19, 2019
    @Sith Lord 2015 I'm so glad someone else appreciates that contrast between the beautiful, tranquil setting of Naboo and the tragic story that will soon begin to unfold. I agree with you that the scenes on Naboo are really the only times that Star Wars gets "romantic" in the conventional sense of gorgeous scenery, countryside picnics, dinners for two with seemingly succulent fruit, and fireside chats. The rest of romance in Star Wars feels more like stolen, rushed moments between the action. Han and Leia's romance largely occurs in gritty moments between battles, for example.

    What is especially interesting about the Naboo scenes is alongside those innocent, light-hearted moments we also get ominous hints of the doomed nature of Anakin and Padme's relationship with Padme saying they would have to live a lie and Anakin saying that would destroy them. I got shivers down my spine last time I watched AOTC and Anakin says those words. They just feel very tragically prophetic to me especially when I know how events will transpire in ROTS.

    Honestly, there is a lot for me to love about the Naboo scenes even just in terms of setting and costuming alone, but as you say, it was also nice to see Anakin enjoying some moments of carefree happiness with Padme in an otherwise very turbulent, stressful life. And yes I absolutely agree that ROTS would have been less effective without the fireplace scene as well as the other Naboo scenes in general. AOTC as a whole does a good job leading up to ROTS in my opinion.
  6. Skywalker Family

    Skywalker Family Jedi Knight star 3

    Mar 15, 2017
    I wish I could visit Naboo. Great place to have a country home.

    The picnic scene and she teases him about her first kiss hehe.
    devilinthedetails likes this.
  7. devilinthedetails

    devilinthedetails Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Jun 19, 2019
    @Skywalker Family I would also love to visit Naboo. Take a tour of Theed to see all that classical architecture, and then spend a lot of time admiring the gorgeous landscape in the lake country with the meadows as a perfect spot for picnicking. Maybe even get those underwater breathers from TPM and visit the glowing bubble city of Otoh Gunga.
    Last edited: Oct 23, 2019
    Skywalker Family likes this.
  8. SarlacsDinnerParty

    SarlacsDinnerParty Jedi Knight

    Aug 24, 2014
    AOTC is probably one of my favorite SW Movies. top 3 for sure. Gets a lot of flack though I truly think its a very underrated film. Deffinetly some of the best action scenes in the saga.

    DARTH_BELO Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Nov 25, 2003
    When this film first came out in theaters, I LOVED it. Then again, I think it's mainly cos those were my first days as a "hardcore fan." As more material came out, my enjoyment of it dwindled and it remained in my bottom few in terms of ranking. But I'm now rewatching all the SW films to get ready for December, and I gotta say-there are some really classic moments in this film, when taken in the scope of the whole saga. And for any weak dialogue or cringeworthy moments, IMO there are FAR more amazing moments to enjoy in this film: The Coruscant speeder chase, everything on Kamino, Anakin and Padme on Tattooine, and of course the battle of Geonosis up until the end. I even like the air of mystery behind everything. Probably though one of my favorite things about AOTC was that this was the film that really delved into the everyday life of the Jedi order, and their activities and skill during their heyday-which is now a time forgotten. It doesn't stand all that well on its own, but when taken as a connecting middle part of a trilogy, it's great.
    Last edited: Nov 6, 2019
  10. Frisco

    Frisco Jedi Knight star 2

    Jan 21, 2019
    Attack of the clones has a weak first act, in my opinion. The opening scene with the failed assassination attempt of padme really fell flat. Absolutely no tension, at all. It's embarrassing. But once Obi-wan and Anakin start taking off with the speeder chase then things start playing out better with alot less clunkyness -- even though awkward moments still abound. But they're cope-with-able, without killing the movie for me.
    Last edited: Nov 19, 2019
    Emperor Ferus likes this.
  11. Darth Buzz

    Darth Buzz Jedi Master star 4

    Jun 25, 2018
    I just rewatched Attack of the Clones as I watch all the saga films in preparation of The Rise of Skywalker. WOW! I can't believe how much I really do love this movie. Sure, there is plenty of cringe moments, but the story is so powerful/good. GL truly had an amazing vision when he was crafting the story for the PT. This movie gets sooooooo much unnecessary hate, just because of some cheesy dialogue at times. People will literally look past an amazing story and film, just because someone does't like sand. SMFH. I really loved watching this movie again for the first time in two years!!!
  12. Emperor Ferus

    Emperor Ferus Chosen One star 7

    Jul 29, 2016
    The good:

    Obi-Wan (yes, even with the one-seated ship debacle :p)

    The scenery (I’ve warmed up to CGI in the prequels as a whole, though not quite as much in the OT)

    The politics and Sidious’s scheme

    the Battle of Geonosis

    While I prefer the look of OT Yoda, I’ve never had a problem with him using a lightsaber. Enjoy the climactic lightsaber duel

    The mix of TPM’s lightheartedness and the dark tone of ROTS. Is more than adequate as a transition into a bleaker era.

    I’ve also warmed up to Hayden Christensen’s performance (especially on Tatooine), though it still isn’t one of my favorites

    Padme is consistent with her strong, determined TPM self while still showing another side to her character

    The not-as-good

    Some of the dialogue

    Anakin is still a little creepy, though nothing next to a certain relative of his....

    The pacing in the first and second acts isn’t quite right

    Not enough Dooku
    devilinthedetails likes this.
  13. KyleKartan

    KyleKartan Jedi Grand Master star 3

    Feb 4, 2004
    The whole sand thing maybe isnt the "best" dialogue ever but its real! For one: its Anakin we are talking about, a guy who has lived on a dessert planet as a child. Naturally he HATES sand. Ask Luke and Rey, they'll agree. Second: this is young man who doesnt know how to interact romanticly with women at all. We all where that boy and trying to make some kind of small talk to a girl to feel more self secure and self asured. Its what we do in situations like this.
  14. Deliveranze

    Deliveranze Force Ghost star 6

    Nov 28, 2015
    I always looked at the sand line as him reflecting on his childhood too. Especially since he grew up as a slave and in Episode I, he mentioned how he wanted to see every system of planets. So sand represents his "home" that he wanted to get away from.
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2019
  15. Subtext Mining

    Subtext Mining Jedi Master star 3

    Apr 27, 2016
    For me the sand line is pretty brilliant and one of my favorite moments in the trilogy. As mentioned before, it's supposed to feel awkward and 'cringey' that's entirely the whole point. We've all been that person, right?

    The important aspect here is that's its a so cringey it's good moment. Or let me just say, so good it's good. :p

    Now, what I feel gets missed most is this, and I think it's where the genius comes in; Anakin may or may not actually dislike sand (he doesn't say hate), the sand isn't the point here, it's merely a segue he thinks up on the spot as a way of conveying to Padme how he thinks she is soft etc. via going off the contrast between their two home planets (which is an important motif of the PT). It's hella cute, kind of brilliant, and as I've said before in the unpopular opinions thread, good game.

    Padme has probably been fed typical, over-confident pick-up lines by sophisticated older guys for years. Now here she is with this handsome, brave young man who genuinely likes her so much he is willing to be vulnerable to the point of saying the most cheesy things -and- without being self-concsious about it. She is smart enough to see how unsophisticated the line is, but she also sees how genuine Anakin's heart is. This is why it all works so well.

    The line itself isn't even the point here, either.

    And the way he smiles like Sebastian Shaw does to Luke when she looks up at him is just shimmering. And gets me in the feels every time I get to that scene in RotJ.

    All in all its a very nice, organic character development piece for both of them, and I couldn't imagine it any other way.

    It also serves as a pointed contrast between Han & Leia's courting scenes, which I would believe is also part of the point.
    Last edited: Dec 1, 2019
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  16. Sith Lord 2015

    Sith Lord 2015 Jedi Master star 4

    Oct 30, 2015
    Couldn't have said it better!=D=
    devilinthedetails likes this.
  17. devilinthedetails

    devilinthedetails Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Jun 19, 2019
    The sand line works fine for me (perhaps because I'm not the biggest fan of sand so it resonates with me to a degree:p) because it really seemed like something a boy from a desert world who has no experience with romance or flirting with a beautiful girl would say. Here Anakin is in this romantic place with the woman to whom he's extremely attracted and he wants to compliment her in his awkward way and he ends up revealing quite a bit about himself. Anakin is quite open with Padme and other characters, and I think that is part of the appeal for Padme, who spends most of her time around politicians who carefully cultivate their images. Anakin never really tries to hide his authentic self from her. That's probably refreshing to her in a way: how unpolished Anakin is.
  18. The_Phantom_Calamari

    The_Phantom_Calamari Force Ghost star 5

    Nov 10, 2011
    I don't even understand why the go-to defense of the line is that it's "supposed" to be awkward. I don't see how it's awkward. Yeah, if you're on a date and out of nowhere you start monologuing about how much you hate sand, that would be weird and awkward. But in the context of the conversation they're having, it makes perfect sense. Padme isn't stupid. She knows Anakin is talking about how rough his childhood was and how he wishes it could have been more like hers. She knows Anakin is kind of half-jokingly talking about how irritating sand is as a proxy for what it was like growing up as a slave on a harsh desert world where there's nowhere to go and no possibility for a better life. She's not standing there going, "What the hell is this weirdo talking about?" She knows exactly what he means, and she feels sympathy for him.

    This whole "I don't like sand" thing has been blown out of all proportion by people who mostly didn't understand what the line actually meant.
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2019
  19. Jcuk

    Jcuk Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Mar 16, 2013
    “And not just the men. But the women, and the children. They’re animals! And I slaughtered them like animals. I hate them!!!!.”....”Padme? Where’ve you gone?”
    *faint sound of a ship taking off outside*
    Padme thinking ‘laters psycho’
    Doompup likes this.
  20. rpeugh

    rpeugh Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Apr 10, 2002
    Its a bad line. But Hayden delivers it so perfectly that it doesnt really bother me. And he should be given more credit for that.
    Princess_Tina likes this.
  21. Bob Effette

    Bob Effette Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Dec 20, 2015
    The endless memes about "I don't like sand" will never cease to amuse me.
  22. themoth

    themoth Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Dec 5, 2015
    AOTC has great action.

    Courascant speeder chase.
    Fight with Jango on Kamino.
    Asteroid field chase.
    Jedi in the arena.
    Battle droid factory fight.
    Duels with Dooku.

    It’s a fun time.
    devilinthedetails and Iron_lord like this.
  23. oierem

    oierem Jedi Master star 4

    Mar 18, 2009
    And in spite of all the action setpieces, most of the movie doesn't have any action at all: after the chase of Coruscant (which is about 10 minutes long), the movie literally doesn't have any action for more than 30 minutes. Then two action sequences with Obi-Wan and Jango, and then another half-hour without any action! The movie takes its time to develop the story, the plot and the atmosphere of each location, and it benefits from it.
  24. themoth

    themoth Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Dec 5, 2015
    Indeed. The Geonosis content had real atmosphere too, along with Kamino. Two planets that captured my imagination as a kid and work wonders in video games.
    Kronin, ThisIsTheWay, oierem and 2 others like this.
  25. Count Yubnub

    Count Yubnub Jedi Master star 4

    Oct 1, 2012
    After all this time it’s the one that’s most engaging to me. It has an engaging story and by far the best worldbuilding (universebuilding) of any Star Wars movie. I’ve always felt that this movie “opened up “ the SW universe more than any other SW movie.