PT Thoughts/General Discussion: Attack of the Clones

In ROTJ, Palpatine mentions several times that he "foresees" things, and I think that goes a long way towards explaining his decisions throughout the PT. He doesn't just analyze political state-of-play like a normal schemer, he gazes into the future and sees many possibilities. I think his plans were designed to account for failures and multiple outcomes. If Padme had signed the treaty, she wouldn't have been on Coruscant to trigger the vote of no-confidence, but it also might have given him a platform to launch his own vote. He wanted the invasion/occupation of Naboo to be a political lightning rod which would lead to all-out war, and it served that purpose down the line.

I think his "master manipulator" reputation works well if we see that he has special oracle-esque abilities. They're not perfect, but they allow him to be one step ahead of his enemies, usually.

 

For the same reason it matters when JJ Abrams does mystery box BS and then doesn't provide a resolution. If a filmmaker introduces a concept, I expect a payoff. It matters to me because it does. I get to decide what matters to me as a viewer.

See the above answer.

But that's my point. If you start changing certain aspects (which he is allowed to do, they're his films) then you can't fall back on "it's all by the same person, therefore it's okay if they're the same."

Imagine if someone used a weird lens filter for underwater scenes in one movie, but then started using the filter randomly in the sequel. Would you say, "Well, the director already used that so you have no room to complain"?

It's the same argument I always here for lightsaber twirling in the PT. "They do it in the OT too." Okay, but it's only a handful of times per duel, not the norm. Plus, if someone already had a criticism of something in the OT (lightsaber twilling) and then the PT does it even more, that doesn't mean that someone isn't allowed to criticize it.

My overall point is that people get to criticize what they don't like. Saying that Lucas did that same thing in a previous film is irrelevant. If anyone finds the context of any of Lucas' choices to be okay in one film and not okay in another, they're allowed to do so. That's not hypocritical; it's acknowledging a difference in the context of Lucas' choice.

 

The payoff is that Sifo-Dyas was killed by the Sith and his name used to launder the clone army's legitimacy to the Jedi. This is clear by the end of Episode II. I know, because I was around when it came out, and everyone seemed to understand that.

You seem to be hung up on who exactly placed a phone call. I still don't understand why that matters or what really makes it a loose end in the context of the prequels' story. Lucas could have explored Sifo-Dyas's backstory in more depth if he really wanted to (like he eventually did in TCW), but it's not something we actually need to know for the story to make sense. That's why he felt comfortable cutting it.

 

Oh, since it was well wrapped up, that makes me wonder why Lucas said in the AOTC commentary that the question would be answered in the following film. Did Lucas forget he put the answer in AOTC? If Lucas himself missed the answer, maybe that's why I did too. Seems not "everyone" knew because myself and George Lucas seemed to be in the dark about it.

Was Sifo-Dyas killed by the Sith? When was that said in the PT? The Sith only used his name? Again, when was that said?

Oh, so the answer is in an episode of TCW? But you just said that "everyone" knew what the answer was by the end of AOTC. Why would Lucas feel the need to provide an answer in a TV show when he already provided the answer in the movie? It seems like Lucas himself felt the answer wasn't apparent, but he must be wrong since "everyone" already knew the answer.

 

He meant he was going to explore Sifo-Dyas's backstory. Ultimately, it wasn't important.

We know Sifo-Dyas was killed by the Sith because Obi-Wan says he was under the impression Sifo-Dyas was killed before the order was said to be placed. Supporting this, Jango Fett has never heard of Sifo-Dyas, and was instead recruited by a man called Tyranus. At the end of the film, it is revealed that Count Dooku is Tyranus, and he is Darth Sidious's apprentice.

It's completely obvious what happened, and this is fact what was later said to have happened by TCW, with the only significant added information being Dooku's claim that Sifo-Dyas colluded with him, a claim Obi-Wan casts doubt on anyway. Just because you were in the dark about what happened doesn't mean everybody was. If it was truly impossible to know what happened from the films, then it strikes me as unlikely that so many people could have come to the right conclusion.

Well, no. In fact, I explicitly said that all the relevant questions were answered in the films. I then said this in the post you quoted and responded to:

"Lucas could have explored Sifo-Dyas's backstory in more depth if he really wanted to (like he eventually did in TCW), but it's not something we actually need to know for the story to make sense."

Therefore, I am not saying that "the answer is in an episode of TCW." I am saying Sifo-Dyas's backstory is explored in more depth in TCW. I am saying the answer to the question, "Who ordered the clone army and what happened to Sifo-Dyas?" is in the movies.

 

No one gets to decide what is and isn't important to someone else. George Lucas made a film. He released it to the masses. I am part of "the masses" and therefore I am allowed to critique his work.

 

Well the chain of events was slightly different. As was already gone into on this thread Lucas actually had the mystery partly solved in the script and the original edit but for whatever reason felt that it simply wasn't mysterious enough. Looking at that script one can see why. The imposter Jedi Sido-Dyas orders the army and Mace and Yoda figure that most likely it was pro-war Senators that made the order.

There is an interesting part:

OBI-WAN
One more thing. Jango mentioned
he was recruited by someone named
Darth Tyranus. Any idea who that
might be?

YODA
With the forename Darth, a Sith he
must be.

MACE WINDU
Our missing apprentice. They are
playing their hand at last.

OBI-WAN
Do you believe he could be the
mysterious Sido-Dyas, who made the
deal for the clone army?

YODA
Perhaps too many pieces are missing
from this puzzle, there are.

In this case the Jedi either would suspect that the Sith are involved in the creation of the army or it could be that someone is playing around using both Jedi (Sido-Dyas) and Sith (Darth Tyranus) names to cause confusion.

In the end though in the final film Obi-Wan and the Jedi never do find out the resolution of the mystery and it's not resolved in ROTS either. At least not in the movie we know. When doing the commentary he intended to have that final resolution within the narrative itself. When actually doing ROTS he decided that since AOTC does answer the mystery to the audience that was enough.

I don't necessarily disagree but it would depend on exactly what it was that he was going to do. IIRC it was going to be something along the lines of the Jedi finding out that Count Dooku's Sith name was Darth Tyranus and connecting that to what they already knew from Jango Fett.

Basically what happened over a few scenes in TCW episode "The Lost One".

Sort of except that whether in ROTS or TCW the actual information wouldn't have been new to the audience but a final confirmation. We find out that Dooku's Sith name is Tyranus and that he was the one who hired Jango Fett for the clone template. Now one might ask that since Jango was not only the clone template for the Republic army but also was working for Dooku and the Separatists then there was that connection already but as a mercenary he could have just been playing both sides.

I agree with the critique aspect but Lucas does get to decide what is and isn't important to his own movie then anyone can react to that.

You can decide if it was that important then you do. I'd say it wasn't but it would have been an in-narrative "loose end" that would have been nice to tie off.

Seems that it got cut early on but as I said I think there was some scene Lucas talked about somewhere that was Obi-Wan overhearing Dooku talking with Sidious and calling him Lord Tyranus. This was when Dooku was in the movie longer before Grievous was created. Then Obi-Wan makes the connection and they realize that the entire war was set-up by the Sith.

 

@Qui-Riv-Brid

So who ordered the army? Did Dooku do it under the name of a dead Jedi? Or did Sifo-Dyas do it, then Dooku killed him and took over the order, and then sent Jango to Kamino to be cloned?

AOTC is about this mystery, but I never got an answer and keeping getting told that the answer doesn't matter. This is like when Snoke went unexplained and then got killed off in TLJ and all I kept hearing was that it doesn't matter who he is. SOMETHING has to matter or else why am I watching these movies?

 

We did get an answer in that the entire war was set in motion by the Sith. Dooku is Tyranus who hired Jango Fett and the Kaminoans believed they were hired by the Republic through Jedi Master Sifo-Dyas.

In terms of the exact sequence of events that you are asking about we don't get those. Judging by AOTC and The Lost One there was never any intention on Lucas' part to answer in that detail. He preferred to keep it a mystery if it was actually Dooku pretending to be Sifo-Dyas or Sifo-Dyas himself who ordered the clone army. The original version of Sidious as false Jedi Master Sido-Dyas was too obvious so the Sifo-Dyas was deliberate obfuscation.The Lost One made a point of Sifo-Dyas seeing a great conflict that the Republic would need an army to face so he might very well have ordered it in concert with Dooku but then again Dooku might have chose him for that very reason knowing that if any Jedi would do that it'd be him.

I don't see how it's anything like Snoke at all. It completely mattered who he is because his backstory was needed to make any sense of the TFA backstory. The "revelation" that Sidious was behind Snoke in some way makes no real sense anymore than Sidious' nonsensical return did. They obviously had no idea what they were doing in the first place with Snoke then just pulled out Sidious because they didn't know what to do.

That the clone and droid armies were created by the Sith playing both sides exists in AOTC's narrative to the audience. How Snoke and the First Order make any sense after the events of the saga is nowhere to be found in Episodes I-VI. Quite the opposite actually.

I'd say the things that really matter in Lucas' movies are all there in the movies. Ultimately he decided that a couple of scenes in ROTS along these lines 1) Obi-Wan (or Anakin?) eavesdrops/overhears Sidious calling Dooku by his sith name of Lord Tyranus then 2) Having the Jedi react to this realizing that the Sith were behind the Clone Wars all along was not something he felt he wanted to do because that information was already known to the audience because it was presented in AOTC.

Why he felt that a reminder of this was not necessary I don't know. All we know is that he cut a lot of material in the script stage then later in the edit that wasn't around the core story of Anakin.

I think it's a good question though why he at least didn't fit it in somewhere else in the final movie. As I said I doubt it was meant to be anything more than a couple of scenes or parts of a few scenes at most.

The most likely answer is that once Dooku's part in the movie was shortened and Grievous was his replacement with Obi-Wan tracking him down to end the war as opposed to Anakin tracking Dooku down to end the war then that planned part of the movie was dropped as well. It didn't fit in the new opening and he didn't deem it that important to bring up again.

 

But he did, in TCW.

Would it be too far off the mark for me to assume that Lucas just couldn't find a way to fit the answer to the question in the narrative of ROTS in 2005 like he initially planned to back in 2002 and so he had the answer initially put into a book released just before ROTS came out (Labyrinth of Evil) and then later in his more official (and now wholly canon) TCW series?

I love the OT, but I know those films have flaws. Can we not just agree this is a flaw of the PT? Or is that too much a request on my part?

 

Where did the money come from to pay for the Clones? We're talking billions of dollars here. (or whatever currency they use)

 

Yes but the actual important and relevant part of an entire episode was Obi-Wan finding out that Count Dooku was already Tyranus because that's the name the Pykes knew him by.

So basically a 22 minute episode was built around two scenes:

MINISTER LOM: You have no business left with the Pykes, Tyranus.

OBI-WAN: Tyranus? You are the man called Tyranus?

DOOKU: I told you everything you needed to know on Geonosis all those years ago, Kenobi. You should have joined me.
Sifo-Dyas understood. He saw the future,that is why he helped me.

OBI-WAN: You lie!
...

YODA: Know now we do, that guide the creation of the clones from the beginning, Dooku did. Cover up this discovery we must.
No one, not even the Chancellor may know. Valiant men,the clones have proven to be, saved my life and yours they have many times.
Believe in them we must, win the war swiftly we must, before our enemy's designs reach completion, whatever they may be.

MACE: Are you sure we are taking the right path?

YODA: (SIGHS) The right path, no. The only path, yes. Designed by the Dark Lord of the Sith, this web is. For now, play his game we must.

I'd say he didn't find it important enough to squeeze into the movie in it's final form. More than likely it was there early one which is reflected in his comments that it would be.

I'd agree that it can very legitimately be seen as a flaw and many might agree or not agree. I'd say that it's a minor flaw at best and really an unimportant one for the overall narrative.

Personally I'd say that a much larger one was cutting out the Yoda communication with Qui-Gon because having even a cursory explanation of of Force ghosts was more important. As it is what we get is a bare acknowledgement of same but without Qui-Gon.

Apparently we are lucky to get even that as Lucas thought about cutting it out entirely without mention.

This is a long term Sith plan so they were saving up! It could have been done any number of ways such as Dooku embezzling funds for the droids and spending that on the clones.

 

You're quite right. My apologies. In the future, feel free to mentally append "In my opinion" at the end of every one of my posts.

 

I sort of wanted more exposition about this too. I understand that ultimately we got *somewhat* of a tangible chain of events but you still have to take some leaps here. Clearly , the Kaminoans dont require an ID to order clones. . I suppose Tyranus using the Sifo-dyas alias/namesake is plausible enough. Or, Sifo was forced to order the army and then killed off once he did. Or a variation of that. Im fine with it - But I LOVE the politics and dealings in the prequels so to me there can never be enough exposition and backstory about any of this stuff. One thing though - with ten years passing between the order being placed and Obi-Wan showing up, you'd think the Kaminoans would have attempted some form of contact with the Jedi during this time period to relay some info about their order. Right? And how was this order paid for? Dex told Obi-Wan that the Kaminoans react positively to the size of your "pocketbook".

Just watched AOTC a few nights ago as I do my marathon. Its still one of my favs. So much to like. A lot of key things happen and IMO the story gets ratcheted up a few notches.

 

In "Revenge of the Sith"? A movie that is part of the Skywalker family saga? I don't think so. Aside from something like "The Clone Wars", the only way Lucas could have told Sifo-Dyas' backstory was in a novel or comic book.

 

The Kaminoans don't seem to conform very closely to human behavioral norms. They're very literal, logical beings. They've been paid, they've been given a job to do, and they've been told a Jedi will eventually come to check up on them, but (we can assume) not to contact anyone before then. So they pocket the money and dutifully do the job for ten years, waiting for a Jedi to come. Eventually they start to think it's strange that a Jedi hasn't come yet, but they've been given strict instructions, so they continue to carry them out.

 

For a Kaminoan ten years is probably not considered as long as for a human, I always thought they lived for centuries but apparently EU sources said they had human lifespans

 

Going strictly by the movies, this could be the case as well. The Kaminoans are obviously meant to be evocative of the classic "grey aliens" in their flying saucers. One can easily imagine that these are extremely long-lived beings who mostly keep to themselves and usually don't pay that much attention to the fleeting events taking place in the galaxy proper. All they care about is their work.

 

I don't really fully agree that this is a strong flaw. I've assumed that Sifo was killed by Sidious or Dooku, who impersonated them and ordered the clone army.

 

I've got a newfound love for this movie after just rewatching all of the movies, to the point that it's now my favorite of them all. I think AOTC is the most unabashedly "Lucas" of the films -- it pays homage to just about every genre in some way, has a uniquely noir tone, the world-building is sublime, and the political undertones (maybe overtones in this case?) are top notch. Love every second of it now.

Regarding Sifo-Dyas, I agree with @AEHoward33. There was really no time to get into that plot thread without distracting from the overall storyline. I'm totally fine with the mystery as presented. It's not particularly important to know who Sifo-Dyas was when AOTC and ROTS in conjunction make it clear that the Sith are behind the creation of both armies anyway.

 

I like AOTC, but I've always found the Sifo-Dyas subplot a bit confusing. Most non/casual fans I spoke to at the time had no idea what this meant. I also found it curious that the Kamino people seemed to have no idea who they were making this massive and expensive army for. They never confirmed this order with the Jedi?

 

Well, they do know who they're making the army for: the Republic. It's also established that Kamino is outside of the Republic and that its inhabitants don't seem to care all that much what goes on outside their borders. People with good manners and deep pockets will get what they ask for. In this case, they were probably told "Don't call us; We'll call you" and saw no reason to disobey as long as the money kept rolling in.

It would've been pretty sweet to have that moment where the Jedi uncover the truth behind the clone affair in ROTS, but as others have said, the story didn't exactly demand it. Ignoring TCW and all OOU comments by GL and others, I just see a Sith plot that neither we nor the Jedi need to know the exact details of.
Was Sifo-Dyas actually involved and if so, how? Those are interesting questions to ponder, but I was perfectly fine with not really knowing. I even liked the fact that this part of the mystery was never explained.
The whole point is that it was all set up by the Sith and by the end of the trilogy, everyone knows that.

 

The problem with Sifo-Dyas and the other questions that AotC set up isn't that we can't figure out what the deal is.
The problem, at least to me, is that the Jedi seem to totally ignore most of it and thus they look clueless and stupid.

IF Sifo-Dyas was indeed killed before the army was ordered and IF the Jedi are aware of that. Both of which AotC quite clearly suggests.
Then they have an army they know was ordered under a false name.
To add to this, Sifo-Dyas name would then not make the Jedi accept the army, they would instead have plenty of reason to smell a rat.
Add to this their archives being tampered with and Jango not knowing who Sifo-Dyas is, then the Jedi have clear reason to think that the clone army is very fishy. But they ask few if any questions and just use the army and when it turns on them, they seem totally surprised.

IF the goal in using Sifo-Dyas name was to make the Jedi at least somewhat accepting of army then don't have that Sifo-Dyas was killed before the order was placed or Jango not knowing him.
Have Sifo-Dyas death some time after the order and the Jedi admit that Sifo-Dyas did talk about a coming darkness and the need for an army. And Jango could say that he knows the name but never met Sifo-Dyas in person.
Then at the end, when Dooku is revealed to be Tyrannus, then the audience sees the whole picture but we also see why the Jedi could be taken in by this scheme.

If Sifo-Dyas name was not to convince the Jedi but the senate, that the Jedi were never intended to find Kamino, hence why the data was removed from their files, and instead the Jedi and the senate would be told about the army when the Kamino contacts the Republic and lets them know their army is ready. This way, the Jedi would not know about the date mismatch nor that Jango had never heard of Sifo-Dyas or that he was working with Dooku. Thus making the army much less iffy.

So Obi-Wan finding Kamino was not in the plans and Palpatine, like he did in TPM, had to think quickly and altered his plans.
But the some damage was done and in RotS, the Jedi have found enough for them to suspect that someone in Palpatine's office had something to do with the clone army. That is why they ask Anakin to spy on him. To try and find out who did this.
Palpatine is again able to think on his feet and part of the reason why he staged his own kidnapping was to try and confuse the Jedi and throw them off his scent.

As is, the deception is too obvious. The characters in the film have too much knowledge and for them to ignore all of it makes them seem dimwitted.
And to me it also makes Palpatine less clever, he did not beat an intelligent adversary, he outwitted a bunch of buffoons.

Bye for now.
The Guarding Dark

 

I don't think the movie confirms either way when he was killed and the movie never has Mace or Yoda confirm the date. And the kaminoans never confirm when the order was exactly placed, as far as I remember.

 

No, it suggests that Obi-Wan is under the impression he was killed before the army was ordered. No one ever says, "Yes, that's correct." Instead, they seem unsure.

Yes, it's clear that they suspect that's a possibility.

Okay, then what? They need an army. Yoda inspected the army. The army was good. So they don't use the army? Okay, Separatists conquer the Republic. Good job.

So I take it you figured out exactly what would happen in Episode III? Right down to Order 66? You must have, since as a viewer you had access to much more information than the dimwitted, buffoonish Jedi who should have seen all of it coming.