PT Thoughts/General Discussion: Attack of the Clones

Indeed. It's clear that the whole clone affair is suspicious, but the Jedi have no reason, at all, to suspect that whoever was behind it intended for the Jedi to find the army. Lama Su says it's for the Republic, but whoever told him that probably lied to hide their true intentions. Since the Kaminoans believe the Jedi Council placed the order, though, nothing's stopping them from using the clones to protect the Republic from the Separatists.
For all they know, they're thwarting someone's evil plans by claiming the army.

I wouldn't have minded a few lines of dialogue to make these things a bit clearer, though.

 

We are never given any reason to think Obi-Wan is wrong. He knows when Sifo-Dyas was killed, we do not since his death is never shown in the films. He also knows when the army was ordered, that was also not shown in the film.

Plus we get that Jango, the army template, has never heard of Sifo-Dyas, throwing further doubt on his involement.
Mace and Yoda never once questions or challenges Obi-Wan about Sifo-Dyas, nor do they ask for more evidence. In short, unless we are told otherwise, they accept it.

Ex, take the following dialogue.
A: What is your name?
B: John Smith.
A: What do you do here?
B: I am a mechanic.
A: How long have you worked here?
B: Three years.
A: Thank you, good bye.

Would you take this dialogue to mean that person A never accepts that person B's name is actually John Smith, that he is a mechanic or that he has worked there for three years?

Some try to have it both ways.
On the one hand, everything about the clone army is totally clear, no ambiguity what so ever. The Sith killed Sifo-Dyas and then used his name when ordering the army. There is no need to explain this any further.
But on the other hand they say that there is doubt, uncertainty, we don't know who did what, we can't be sure if this person really did this. Etc.
These two arguments don't match.
If it is all 100% crystal clear, no doubt about anything, then what happened is then obvious, even to the Jedi.
If there are unanswered questions, things are not resolved or not established then the situation is not totally clear.

So if you meet somebody and introduce yourself and give your name. Unless they respond "Yes, I understand and accept your name is so and so" You would then think that they are unsure of your name?

And what do they do about it?

"The army was good"? When was that established? If Yoda had found out something that proved Obi-Wan wrong then it should be IN the film.
Yoda went to look at the army and given that he arrived on Geonosis mere minutes after Mace and co, who went straight there, he could not have looked very hard or very long.

And you make the same misstake others have, there are more than two options here.
There is not just;
A: Use the army.
B: Don't use the army.
You can use the army and still ask questions, dig deeper, make preparations in case things go badly.
Be aware that you are being played.
But the Jedi are written to be stupid so they do none of these things.

Who do you think has the most information and understanding of what it means to be a US Marine.
A person that has gone through Marine training and served as a Marine for years or someone that has just watched "Full Metal Jacket."?

The Jedi and the other characters have way more knowledge of their world than we do. We just see a few hours, they have lived their whole lives there.

As to how and when I realized that things were iffy.
1. Kamino has been removed from the Jedi files. So someone clearly does not want the Jedi to go there. This someone is a former or current Jedi as they are the only ones with access.
2. A clone army has been ordered at the request of the Senate. A lie since the Senate never made any such request. So the order is at best illegal.
3. The person said to have placed the order is a Jedi I have never heard of and is dead and was apparently dead when the order was placed.
4. The template for said army has also never heard of the Jedi that supposedly placed the order.
3 and 4 combined strongly hints that the army was ordered under a false name.
5. Said template is involved in an assassination plot against one of the biggest opponents to the army bill. So he is shady.
6. The clones has been tampered with and they obey any order without question. So if they are told to slaughter babies, they would obey instantly. And it also means that the person with the highest authority could order the clones to kill all Jedi and the clones would do so. This person would be Palpatine since the army is for the Republic and he has the highest rank within said Republic.

So yeah, I did not need Order 66 to figure out that the clones would be turned against the Jedi.
And notice, the Jedi are aware of all of this.
Plus the fact that Jango is working for Dooku, who is a former Jedi so he could be the person behind 1. And he has turned to the dark side, has Sith powers, uses a Sith style lightsaber and works with known Sith associates.
The Jedi are aware of this as well.

About the only thing that the Jedi don't know that I do is that Dooku is Tyrannus. But they have enough evidence to consider that possibility.

Bye.
Old Stoneface

 

I don't think we're given that much to suggest he's really right. To me, by the nature of him having to ask about it to be sure, to me, I think could be seen as casting doubt on it.

If you think that's forced that they don't challenge it, I can say that I think similarly. But the movie, I think, may leave it vague.

 

I, mostly, think similarly. I think the plan itself could've also stood to have a polish to have it be more so that the jedi have less reason to question it, as well.

 

This is my main issue with all of AOTC. The Jedi come across as complete idiots. By the end of the film the Jedi know that Dooku is working with the separatists. They know that Jango knew about the army AND was working with Dooku. This means that, most likely, Dooku knew about the clones as well. The Jedi also know that only a Jedi could have erased the Kamino file from their archives and that Sifo-Dyas was most likely killed before the clone army was even ordered.

Even if the Jedi dismiss Dooku's talk about a hidden Sith Lord, they should still suspect Dooku of being the one who has ordered the clone army as a means of starting a Civil War within the Republic. And what do they do with this information? Nothing. They don't even connect the dots.

I still think AOTC should have ended with the Jedi realizing too late that the Clone Wars are a massive Sith scheme with Dooku leading the Separatists and the unknown Sith Lord (Sidious) influencing the Republic. Only, the Jedi don't know what to do about it because it's too late; the war has already started. Then, you begin ROTS by establishing that the Jedi have been acting in secret during the war in an attempt to try and find out who this Sith Lord is and have that secrecy be the reason why the senate has grown untrustworthy of them by the time of ROTS. Maybe, since the Sith are believed extinct, the senators begin to view the Jedi as conspiracy theorists, trying to use a boogie man as an excuse to grab control away from the Chancellor and finally as an excuse to kill Palpatine. "Oh, Palpatine just happened to be the Sith Lord you all were looking for even though they all died out a millennia ago? Yeah, right..."

I'd feel more sympathetic of the Jedi if they pieced the information together too late as opposed to never.

 

As much as I prefer this story point to be more filled out, I think suggesting they're complete idiots is a harsher term than I think applies. the Jedi don't have proof about what Dooku knows and I think they wouldn't understand why Dooku would order an army for the republic or how he'd be able to. Even the erasing of the kamino file doesn't align with what they may think Dooku's goals are.

I think that makes them look more stupid, for knowing it's a sith plot and continuing to work with the clones. At least in TCW show they have the angle of the jedi having worked with the clones and the war already being in it, I think, for years.

My preference for this, if keeping Jango and him being an assassin, would be:

That Dooku leads the jedi to believe that he hired Jango to sabotage the clone army and erase kamino form the archives and create distrust with it and frame it and the kaminoans, to ensure they don't use it. In reality, it was a con to make the jedi and the senate think they had the upper hand and get them to use the clone army, them thinking they were using something Dooku didn't want them to use.

 

Dooku tells Obi-Wan that there is a Sith hidden in the Republic. Yoda knows Dooku has fallen to the dark side. Obi-Wan, Mace, and Yoda all know that Dooku was working closely with a bounty hunter who knew about the Clone Army. They know Dooku is up to no good. They also know, regardless of what Separatist propaganda might say, that the benefactors of the separatists are terrible people, some of which were involved in the Naboo debacle (who the Jedi agree had ties to the Sith as well)

So you've got Dooku, who Yoda states has fallen to the dark side, working with the Neimoidians who had dealings with a Sith Lord a decade prior. And now Dooku is spouting off about the SIth being involved again. Even if the Jedi think Dooku is lying about a SIth hidden in the Republic, they should still assume that the Sith have something to do with this (they even say it's the Sith Lord who has been clouding their vision). And instead of looking into any of this, even though they know of clear links between all these people, Yoda just says, "Nah, Dooku's lying."

By the end of AOTC they'd have no choice. What do they do, refuse to fight? At this point, the Sith (Sidious and Dooku) are in charge of both sides of the war and the Jedi have no idea what they're endgame is. For all the Jedi know, refusing to fight could be exactly what the Sith Lord wants. They have to carry on like usual while trying to find the hidden Sith Lord as covertly as possible.

 

Mace Windu speaks on this being their greatest fear being realized. I sith clouding their vision doesn't necessarily change that, to me. I don't think I get the impression the jedi outright don't think sith aren't involved in a side of the war.

I think I remember Yoda more suggests Dooku is deceitful and all that, not that he's necessarily lying.

Yes. Assisting in the sith plot knowingly, and still being blindsided somehow, I think makes them look borderline irresponsible idiots.

If you want to have more of an angle of the jedi pretending to be played by the con, but actually working to uncover the truth more, and unravel the conspiracy (which Palpatine may use as a way try and frame the jedi as traitors), using the clones (even trying to undo them), Palpatine leaking breadcrumbs for the jedi to follow to get them into republic sensitive areas that would make them look like traitors, maybe that could be done and maybe, I think, could, in theory, be interesting, but I don't necessarily think there's a lot of time for all that, as a whole. And I think that also changes the dynamic of the jedi purge, and again, to me, I think would have to have more time dedicated to it, taking away from the time ROTS has.

 

Okay, now they're traitors to the Republic. They are to be rounded up and executed.

 

They knew that at the start of the film. They also knew he was a Jedi which is why they didn't see treachery in him. By the end of the film they know he's on the dark side so they question everything he says. The truth is a great way to lie when you are known as a liar.

Where you get this idiot thing I have no idea other than once again pointing to the advantage we the audience have over the players in the story.

Jango is a mercenary who could be playing both sides. He's just getting paid. Dooku may or may not have known about the clones. If he did then why didn't he do anything about it to stop them? Maybe Sifo-Dyas erased the file.

I go to the Sherlock Holmes example:

Dr. John Watson:
How absurdly simple...

Sherlock Holmes:
Quite so. Every problem is absurdly simple when it is explained to you.

The audience gets that.

They don't dismiss it. It just doesn't make much sense to them and why would it? Why should they suspect Dooku for this? Why order an army of clones to fight for the Republic when he's got an army of droids for the Separatists? Remember that they were already talking about creating an army for the Republic. What seems to get missed is that the larger point of the clone army plot was to get the war rolling asap rather than taking years more to get going. It's not like the Republic was defenseless but having a ready made army made going to war so easy.

Which is about 99% of where AOTC ended save for them not knowing that Dooku and this supposed Darth Sidious (if he even exists) engineered the war for the purpose of weakening the Jedi then eventually backstabbing them with said army.

That sounds fine if Lucas had a four hour plus movie. As it was that simply wasn't the focus of the movie nor important enough. The audience had what they needed.

I don't know why feeling sympathy for them matters that much.

 

But there's still a connection. Do the Jedi investigate this possible lead? Nope. They do absolutely nothing.

Well, since there's doubt as to whether Sifo-Dyas actually ordered the army or not, it could have been Dooku himself. Which means Dooku wanted a war to start. He is in league with business people. Business people like war because it makes them money. What better way to make money than to engineer a war?

I was under the assumption that we're supposed to care when they all get killed. Isn't that why we hear sad music?

 

They do investigate but it got "cut off" so to speak!

Making money by paying out exorbitant amounts for the other side? Why not spend all the money on your side and win? Again it's not like the Republic can't raise an army themselves across tens of thousands of systems. The clone army ready to go just makes everything go faster. The point is that people think it's a real war and don't know it's just a ploy for the Sith to further set the table to take over.

For the sadness to the galaxy and the Force and an organization for good? Sure but some particular personal sympathy? One might or might not. It's not like we get to know them on that level.

 

@Qui-Riv-Brid

I just find it lazy that Lucas wrote a bunch of open ended stuff that never gets a concrete answer. Anyone can put whatever in a story and then not answer the questions that they posed. JJ Abrams and Alex Kurtzman do it all the time. I don't care for their "artistic" work either.

Lucas basically handwaved it all in ROTS, "Palpatine did it all." And I'm left sitting there thinking, "Okay... How?"

It's the same issue I have with Lex Luthor in BvS by Snyder. Lex is able to do all this stuff and find out who everyone is. "Okay... How?" And I'm told to just move past it.

Anytime anyone writes a story where someone is able to do all this stuff to manipulate everyone and I ask "How?" and I'm told "They just were, accept it" that's not for me.

 

Again there are all kinds of answer that are given and to the actually important questions. You seem to want to go into the most intricate point by point details that simply aren't going to be in movies.

There is no comparison between Lucas and those guys. JJ has his empty and nothing in the box approach which he's utilized over and over again that outright tells us he really has no interest in anything actually making sense. Look at TFA compared to ANH or TPM. It's a completely different approach. Lucas pays attention to details and give us the most important material. The other way is "Just go with it. Make up any explanation you like."

If what Lucas did over 3 entire movies for the prequels is what you consider to be handwaving to be then I don't know what he or anyone could possibly do to satisfy. The point being that the chances that other film-makers making Star Wars movies would do anywhere near what Lucas did is in evidence not something they would do or have an interest whatsoever in doing.

I paid scant attention to that movie so I have no idea.

At this point I don't know what it is that you want then. Why you think Lucas is just saying Sidious' manipulations were answered with "They just were, accept it" is the question. I simply don't agree with that assertion in the first place. We see the manipulations in the movies themselves and the results of them. For direct Sidious comparison of how not to do it see TROS.

 

Tons of other directors manage to make movies that I love, even Lucas made one of them. I just don't think the PT movies are very good. The overall story is great, they have a good structure to them, but all in all they just fell flat for me.

Amazing, near perfect concept.
Lackluster execution.

 

I don't think the republic is on that road, at this point.

I don't think this comparison applies. Palpatine has something I think Lex isn't shown in that movie to have: Over a decade of time to plan this and powers.

With that, what's confusing about what he could do?

I may prefer more explanation for things, but I think much of it isn't that confusing.

 

You ever seen how a country treats those who won't fall in line once a war breaks out? It's not pretty.

 

If we are never given any reason, then how is that so many people got the impression that Obi-Wan is unsure? As young as I was, I was active in the online Star Wars community when the movie came out. People were talking about these things, and many came to the conclusion that the timeline of Sifo-Dyas's death was unclear to the Jedi. Ultimately, this was confirmed to be the case by TCW.

So how did those people figure it out? Must have been some pretty supernatural stuff going on.

What was he supposed to find? He examined the clones with his Jedi senses and determined they were on the level.

The Jedi know the circumstances of the army's creation are suspicious. Yoda went to inspect the army itself. There was nothing wrong with the army as far as he could tell. The clones turned out to be good, loyal men. There's no way he could have known there was a chip with a Jedi kill order implanted in their brains.

Ask what questions? Do what preparations? The chip was made to be unrecognizable to standard medical scans. There's no reason whatsoever to think that the clones might ever turn on them. The clones are genuinely loyal to the Republic.

Yes, because they look like stormtroopers, and you've seen the original trilogy, just as most of us had. You also knew the Jedi were all going to get wiped out--again, because you've seen the original trilogy. Believe it or not, though, the Jedi have not seen any of the Star Wars movies.

Did you predict Order 66? Looks like the answer is "No." So how can you call the Jedi "stupid" for failing to predict the very thing you failed to predict, even with all your extra out-of-universe knowledge?

 

People also speculated or thought that Palpatine was just a clone, there was the "Darth Jar Jar" theory going around.
Also, before TCW, there were other EU books that tried to muddy the waters about if Sifo-Dyas was actually involved or not.

And if things were unclear, did you think that more info would be coming?
That RotS would clarify some of this?

Another thigns you said that I missed earlier,

That the Sith killed Sifo-Dyas is not clear from the films. This you either assuming or using other sources to fit the film.
All we know about Sifo-Dyas is that he was killed about ten years ago. Not by who or how.
That the Sith did is a reasonable assumption but it is an assumption. Not proven by the films.

This is never said in the film, Yoda only says he will go look at the clone army. He never says that he used his Jedi sense and that the clones are good.
He arrives soon after Mace so he did not have time for any detailed look.

Interesting that you bring up the chip, which is not in any of the films.
I have noticed this when I have discussed this plot point, many try to defend it by saying "The films are totally clear" and almost always proceed to quote TCW, some EU book. Thus proving that this is not as clear as they claim.

And "Nothing wrong with the army"?
That is moronic.
The order was not placed at the request of the senate, who actually placed the order is unclear, steps have been taken to ensure that the Jedi don't find the army, the template works for Dooku, who the clones are now fighting. And they happen to be ready within days of the Republic really needing them.
Even Homer Simpson would go "Hey.. wait a minute."

Also, the clones can not be loyal, they are totally obedient. If Clone A gets an order to kill Clone B, he will do so without question or hesitation. No matter how long they have served with each other, that they have bled together.
Loyalty does not exist, only obedience.
If you bring up TCW and what happened there, see again my argument that the films are not as clear as people claim.

Again with the non-film sources.

I believe I have told you this before, question the Jedi could ask are;
1) Double check the dates, when exactly did Sifo-Dyas die and when exactly was the clone army ordered?
If they can confirm what Obi-Wan said, then they know that the army was ordered under a false name.
2) Talk to Kamino people and ask if they met "Sifo-Dyas" in person. If yes, show them a picture of Sifo-Dyas and see if they recognize him. If yes, that is useful, if not, then proof that the army was ordered under a false name. They could then ask the Kamino to describe the person that ordered the army and see if they can figure out who it is.
3) Ask the Kamino people if they were given any person in the Republic to contact in case things went wrong. Were they told that someone would come and check up the army, if so who?
4) Ask them about Jango, he didn't know about Sifo-Dyas so how did they know to expect him?
Did "Sifo-Dyas" tell them that he was coming? Did Jango arrive with "Sifo-Dyas"?
Do they have any idea who this Tyrannus is that Jango talked about?
5) How was this paid for? Did "Sifo-Dyas" bring along bags of money? Was there an account that the money was transferred from, if so, what account? Try to trace the money.

In short, the Jedi have other stones to turn over other than Jango.
What they would find out is unclear and they might not find anything but the Jedi would not know that ahead of time. So no reason to not investigate.

As for preparations.
If the Jedi can confirm that the clone army was ordered under false name then try to reach out to senator they feel they can trust and bring them into this.
This is a conspiracy but alone they might be able to get to the bottom of it. They need allies.
Also, with their one Jedi temple, that is a massive target, spread out a bit. Move some Jedi off-Coruscant along with some pupils. Have a few Jedi be declared "dead" in the battle and have them go underground.
In short, try to prepare for other eventualities.

I gave a pretty detailed list of the things that were fishy, you ignored all of it so you can try to dismiss what I said with just "You saw the OT first!!"

Also, I did figure out that Shmi would die a tragic death in ep II and that it would have a major impact on Anakin.
And Shmi is never mentioned in the OT.

I figured out the concept of Order 66, I did not know the name ahead of time.
I figured that it would just be "All Jedi are traitors to the Republic, kill them!" and the clones would instantly obey.
All of that came just from watching AotC and paying attention.
Order 66 is pretty on the nose, thought not as on the nose as Order 666.

We are given no reason to doubt it, which is far more important. If the film makes the effort to try and establish something, then I will accept it as true until I am given reason to think otherwise.
When Han Solo introduced himself, I accepted that that this was his name. I did not assume he was lying for no reason.
Raiders established that Abner Ravenwood was dead, it wasn't confirmed but I saw no reason to.
Marion said he was dead and that was enough. Why would I assume that she is wrong or lying for no reason?

People that want to ignore or dismiss what Obi-Wan says do so based on nothing.
And again, Jango not knowing Sifo-Dyas, supports what Obi-wan said.

It is possible that Obi-Wan is wrong but if the films never proves him wrong or gives reasons as to why he is wrong, I will accept what he says as correct.
I have asked this before, why are these lines IN the film if not to establish something?
If Lucas put those lines there with the intent that Sifo-Dyas did order the army and Obi-Wan is plain wrong.
Then why have those lines there?
It serves no purpose and worse, works counter to what Lucas is trying to establish.

Bye.
Old Stoneface

 

Very funny conversation: I say "she can suspect Nute", you say "she can't accuse Nute".

 

I have a problem with this complaint that the Jedi should have been portrayed as more ideal and all-knowing than they proved to be. Or that they should not have been capable of mistakes. Another problem I have with this particular complaint is that when Obi-Wan had reported Jango's connection to Dooku and the Separatists to the Jedi, the Chancellor and a handful of senators, events began to spiral out of control. While Yoda went to investigate the Kamino facility, Mace led a group of Jedi to Geonosis to help Obi-Wan, Anakin and Padme. And the Senate quickly voted to use the new clone army to deal with Separatists. No one - aside from Palpatine, who really knew what was going on - had any time to stop and contemplate over what was happening. Before nearly everyone knew it, the galaxy had commenced upon a full blown war. This was so obvious in the movie. Which is why I have a problem with this particular complaint.

 

Yeah - I kind of agree here. The Jedi were sort of made into having almost diety-level powers perhaps in the early parts of the OT which might have set us all up for expecting them to be flawless. Thats clearly not he case here. I also keep going back to both Mace and Yoda commenting on how the Sith clouds their judgement and their ability to use the force has been diminished. Thats key stuff right there, IMO. So while we watching have some legit questions(and are like WTF guys, cant you see xxxxxx or yyyyyy) that have been raised in the posts above - the characters are dealing with a weakened "force state" per se and its not falling into place that easily for them. Something like that.

Like any AOTC fan, Id love to have an entire film on the creation of the army and all those cool details. But for the prequels as they are, I'm content with what we got explanation wise for most things. I do wish that Obi-Wan would have taken Dooku more seriously though while captured. I mean..... Dooku handed them like everything on a silver platter! However, as another poster mentioned above, liars & those that deceive really muck things up when they DO tell the truth. You cant believe them.

 

This discussion has gone in circles for almost twenty years now. It's unbelievable.
And amusing! I'll throw my two cents in for the thousandth time:

* First of all, with the way things play out, the Jedi have no real reason to suspect that whoever is behind the army meant for them to find it, even if it's true that it was intended for the Republic (which they can't be completely certain of). It's quite possible that someone in the Republic planned to use it to seize control. It's also possible that someone planned to use it against the Republic.
Either way, the Jedi "just so happened" to find the army and claim it before the plan was put in motion - and since the Kaminoans believe the Jedi Council placed the order at the request of the Senate, it would be quite impossible for someone else to waltz in and convince them that Grand Master Yoda and Supreme Chancellor Palpatine weren't authorized to take the army.
As far as the Jedi know, they've thwarted whatever plans "Sifo-Dyas"/"Tyranus" had for the clones.

* Secondly, Jango was hired for the clone job ten years ago, while the Separatist movement is quite new. While it's possible that he's been in Dooku's employment for a long time, it's definitely true that he is a bounty hunter and would likely have no qualms about accepting well payed jobs for different governments who might go to war.
Also, an experienced bounty hunter like Jango should know better than to run straight to Tyranus right after his fight with a Jedi who is investigating the clone army, should he not? I think it would seem more likely that he went to a different employer in case he was being tracked.

* Thirdly, it would probably not be very clever of Dooku to provide the Republic with an army that's superior to his droid army, would it?
...but IF Dooku is somehow involved, it still seems likely that the Jedi weren't meant to find the army and that the mystery plan has failed.

* Fourthly, the Jedi's ability to use the Force has diminished, which makes it difficult for them to see the big picture. Even Yoda, after all his meditating, has a hard time sensing the truth.
They are forced to rely on logical reasoning and all things considered, it's perfectly reasonable for the Jedi to trust the clones.

 

I don't expect characters to be perfect,. Showing the Jedi as being one step behind in a Sith plot to take over the Republic is fine, especially when they're putting the clues together albeit too late. Showing them to be almost completely aloof over the course of 13 years just so the plot can take place is pretty lazy writing IMO.

Oh, Palpatine found a way to cloud the Jedi's vision. How convenient for the story, George. How was Palpatine able to do any of this? Oh, he just was. How was Palpatine able to manipulate the Neimoidians and the Separatist Coalition? Oh, he just was. Who ordered the clones? Doesn't matter. As long as Anakin gets put inside a robot suit, none of it matters. Imagine getting to the end of WATCHMEN and instead of explaining how Ozymandias was able to do what he did, Alan Moore said, "He was just able to, just move past it."

 

I'd think it's fairly obvious that as the Sith grow in power, the dark side's influence grows as well. The Jedi's vision being clouded is a natural consequence. The Jedi themselves growing arrogant is another.

And how do the Sith gain power? Well, as Qui-Gon said, greed can be a powerful ally. The Sith prey on the greedy and the fearful, which is shown rather explicitly in TPM and is implicit in the narrative of AOTC. The Trade Federation, the Commerce Guilds, the Corporate Alliance... What they, like most successful businesses, have in common is an insatiable hunger for profit. TPM established great dissatisfaction with taxation in the Republic. I don't think it needs to be said on screen that Dooku has promised them more lucrative conditions than the Republic would ever allow.
It wouldn't hurt, but it's not that hard to understand what motivates the Separatists.

As for who ordered the clones: If only there was a scene near the end of AOTC that revealed to the viewers who Tyranus really was...