PT Thoughts/General Discussion: Attack of the Clones

Except the idea that someone wanted the army for themselves, be it Dooku or someone else. That fails because there would be no need to engage in a convoluted plot to make it look like the army was made for the Republic. The cloners will work for anyone that can afford them and they have made other armies in the past.
So if Dooku or someone else wanted an army, they would just order one.

So no, the army is for the Republic, that is said in the film and it makes no sense for someone to order an army for the republic but really wanting it for themselves.

Except that we are dealing with a whole galaxy's worth of bounty hunters etc here.
That Jango just happened to be hired by Dooku when he needed an assassin to kill Padme when said Jango just happened to be part of making an army that would oppose said Dooku. That is possible but it is so implausible that anyone with a brain would look into more closely and not immediately leap to the conclusion that it was just random chance.
Also, per the film, the Kamino people keep Jango there. Oh he can leave but he clearly spends most of his time there. Plus he has a son to raise.
So Jango is less active than before.
So either Dooku hired Jango by pure random chance. OR Dooku had worked with Jango before and knew of him so had him do another job.

If Jango suspected he was being tracked, going back to any employer is stupid.
Go somewhere else and send a signal informing them of the situation. Jango clearly had been in contact with Dooku before he met with Zam and handed her the bugs.
Speaking of Zam, why did her droid react to discovery by going back to her? That is also stupid.
Self-destruct would be better, or go away from your source. Going back would allow it to be tracked.

Again, IF Dooku wanted a clone army, he could buy one for himself, no need to pretend it was for the Republic.

Dooku could have deleted the file as he was a Jedi once. He is connected to Jango, the army template. If Sifo-Dyas really did not place the order on account of being dead, Dooku would know his name and that he had recently died so would be a good cover.
But yes, why would Dooku give the republic an army when he would win with easy with his big droid army? Something to consider to be sure. And on the face of it, it makes no sense.
But Dooku is a Sith, lies, deceit is his game now. What if the game is to start a war and a very costly one at that. One that would bleed both seps and republic. Playing both sides, have the Jedi never encountered that?

But why was the file deleted? The Kamino people would contact the Republic eventually so that won't stop the republic from getting the army. But if the senate hears about it first and conflict starts soon after. then the Jedi will not have any time looking into the army. They might never learn when the army was ordered so they can not compare it to Sifo-Dyas death. They will have no idea that Jango was involved or that he works for Dooku or that Jango has never heard of Sifo-Dyas.
In all, it looks like someone wanted to army to look acceptable and not give time for people to look too deeply at it.

No, logically it makes no sense at all for the Jedi to trust the clones.
If the Jedi are so used to the Force simply handing them all the answers and they are not accustomed to having to think for themselves. Then them accepting the clones could work because they are unable to think logically and deduce facts on their own. But this says basically that they are stupid.

Bye for now.
The Guarding Dark

 

Jango without a doubt connects Dooku to the Clone Army. Even if Sifo-Dyas did order the army with the best of intentions, Jango working for Dooku means that the Jedi should at the very least suspect that Dooku knew about the army once Jango arrived at Geonosis.

Plus, the Jedi seem unsure of whether Sifo-Dyas was killed before or after the army was ordered. And what do they do about this? Nothing. They don't even look into it. It seems that finding out whether Sifo-Dyas actually placed the order if someone used his identity is of no concern to the Jedi.

This means that there is a big question about whether Sifo-Dyas actually ordered the clone army, there is a former Jedi running around who was working closely with the template of the clone army, and the Kamino file could only have been deleted by a Jedi... THIS ALL POINTS TO DOOKU.

Yep.

 

What is this insistence on characters in movie being called stupid?

Apparently everyone is Star Wars is stupid because they haven't gone out of their own universe and realized they are in a series of movies. Everyone from ANH on from Obi-Wan to Leia, Vader and Tarkin and on and on an on are all stupid all the way through all the movies.

This is what I find ridiculous. They are not stupid. They can have reasons both stated or inferred through the actions they take or the way the characters are presented.

Except from the Jedi perspective then how come he didn't know about the clone army by his actions? It's not like they were prepared for the clone army to storm in when they did.

So therefore he didn't know about them in the first place and Jango didn't tell him. Also why would Dooku have a hand in creating two armies? What would the point be? He could have had a clone army to attack the Republic or a droid one. He doesn't need two but even if he did then he'd have two armies to the Republic's zero. Why create an army for your enemies?

The answers are all very simple when watching the movies of course because the complete situation is unknowable if you are a character in them. They can't know that Palpatine is a Sith Lord that Dooku is a Sith Lord (until he reveals himself)and that they are manufacturing a war to destroy the Jedi. No one but those two understand the war is bogus from the start.

I don't know why you'd say that. I get that you want every scintilla of information but the basic point is that Yoda goes to inspect the clone army and finds nothing intrinsically wrong with them. It's hardly incredible to infer that Yoda did his homework on Sifo-Dyas and the order date of the clone army. Talked to the Kaminoans and inspected their army for the Republic and came to the conclusion that all was well. As well as could be expected for an army built for the Republic in secret and possibly ordered by a Jedi Master. Obviously a Jedi wouldn't have the cash for such a thing which means heavy Republic backers with massive cash.

The most legitimate complaint is one that Lucas more directly addressed these issues in the script but in the edit he decided that information was surplus to the story like so many other scenes he's scripted, shot then cut down to the essentials or even completely cut out. In this case the veracity of the clones comes from Yoda and as it turns out he was mostly correct since everything with them was perfectly fine until the revelation of Order 66.

Except using that standard it would have to make Dooku a completely stupid lunatic to fund and create an entire army not for his use but the other side. An army that he shows no signs whatsoever of knowing it's existence. An army that Jango Fett apparently didn't tell him about.

BTW Sifo-Dyas could be the person who deleted the Kamino file. It makes more sense that he did as he ordered the clones not Dooku. The one key linkage is that the Jedi know that a man named Tyranus hired Jango. I doubt Jango let that out by accident so it was intentionally given to him to say if he was ever asked. This was a set-up that ended up not being used in ROTS where they'd find out that Dooku was Tyranus.

Hmm.. a mercenary bounty hunter being paid tons of money by both sides? Nah that couldn't happen. Jango is too good and loyal a guy. He isn't swayed by money at all but is personally loyal to...

Yeah right!

 

Are you implying that no one has ever set out to start a war for personal gain? Even if Dooku wanted a war for no better reason than to enrich himself, I can't think of a better way that to provide the opposing side with an army at the same time you intend to start a full-scale war. When you want to get rich from a war, you don't want it to end anytime soon. Just look at what the U.S. has been doing in the middle east for the past two decades.

Isn't Dooku a Count? That implies money. Seems like that's yet another arrow pointing directly at Dooku. Not to mention that this army seems to have been commissioned around the same time that Dooku left the Order.

Because they all act like idiots. The Jedi still have questions by the end of AOTC. Do they investigate to even attempt to find out answers? Nope. Then they all have shocked Pikachu faces when the clones turn on them.

And let me guess, ultimately it doesn't matter, it's what Lucas wanted, etc... As long as Anakin ends up in that robot suit, nothing else matters. I know, I know.

 

I call them stupid because that is how they come across to me.
I would also call several characters in TLJ stupid and I would very much call the Psychlos in Battlefield Earth massively stupid.

If a creator does not want me to think that the characters are stupid, write them more intelligently.

It has nothing to do with the characters knowing they are in a film so that is a straw-man on your part.

It has everything to do with the Jedi being handed a very suspicious army and seemingly ask no questions, do any digging and when the clones turn on them, they seem taken totally by surprise.

Questions the Jedi never ask are;
"Who deleted the Kamino file and why?"
"Did Sifo-Dyas really order the army, and if he didn't, who did?"
"Jango Fett worked for Dooku, could there be a connection?"
"Who paid for this army?"
"Who could this Tyrannus be?"

It also has to do with the writing overall. A question is set up about someone deleting the Kamino file, but then there is no follow up and the whole thing is forgotten.
Obi-Wan is told about a Tyrannus but he never mentions that to anyone, nor is there any followup by the Jedi about it.
A question-mark is raised about who really ordered the clone army but then that is also ignored.

And so on.

It would not be very hard to write the Jedi to come across as more aware and being able to think.

1) If the Kamino file being deleted would not get any follow up then remove the scene with Yoda and the kids as that did not do Obi-Wan any favors as he could not realize something that was so obvious than even a small child could figure it out.
So instead have Obi-Wan report to Mace what he has learned and where he is going.

2) On Kamino, have Obi-Wan say that Sifo-Dyas was killed about 8 years ago. With Jango, he asks about Sifo-Dyas and Jango thinks and says "Oh yes, Sifo-Dyas. Sadly I never met him, I was hired by an associate of his, a person called Tyrannus." Obi-Wan then asks, "When was this?" and Jango says "About nine years ago." And Taun We cuts in, "Sifo-Dyas told us to expect him."
When reporting to Mace and Yoda, Obi-Wan never says anything about Sifo-Dyas being killed before the army was ordered. Instead he asks "Did Sifo-Dyas ever mention anything about an army and did the council approve the ordering of an army?" Mace denies that they approved any such order but says that Sifo-Dyas did mention about a coming darkness and had argued that the Republic needed a proper army.
Obi-Wan then asks, "Could Sifo-Dyas have gone behind the councils back and ordered the army?"
Mace says "I find it unlikely but it is not impossible. Did this Jango say anything?"
And Obi-Wan informs them about what Jango said and about Tyrannus. And asks if Sifo-Dyas knew anyone with that name. Mace and Yoda says that they don't know who that is.
In all, it seems to both Jedi and audience that Sifo-Dyas could indeed have ordered the army.
But the audience sees later that Dooku is Tyrannus and can see what is really going on but the Jedi don't.

3) At the end of the film, Obi-Wan, Mace and Yoda talk about the clone army and if they can trust them.
They talk about Jango and him working for Dooku and what that could mean and mention that they need to dig deeper.

Then in RotS they talk briefly about the result of that investigation. They have traced some of the money to the senate and they suspect that someone in Palpatine's office could have been involved. That is part of the reason why they are more suspicious of Palpatine and why they want Anakin to spy on him. To get more info about this.

If you want to write a good mystery, a cunning plot with a a satisfying payoff, then you need to put effort into it.
And not have the characters just do stuff because the plot needs them to.
The clone army plot was changed late in the game and a follow up was planned for RotS but got cut because there was no time.
People have issues with the mystery-boxes in the ST and how there was no follow up to several of them.
Fair criticism to me. And I overall like TFA but can admit that several of the mysteries did not go anywhere.

ANH has, to me, better writing. Ex. when the rebels attack the DS, the imperials are able to analyze the attack and conclude there is a danger and one guy warns Tarkin and asks if they should have his ship standing by. But Tarkin is overconfident and arrogant and refuses.
When Luke and Obi-Wan finds the burning Jawa crawler, Luke thinks that Sand People did this by looking at the evidence but finds it a bit odd. But Obi-Wan sees through the ruse and says that the empire did this.
This ties back to an earlier scene where an imperial officer warns Vader that holding Leia is dangerous, that it could generate sympathy for the rebels in the senate. So Vader throws up a fake distress call and to inform the senate that all onboard were killed. So on Tatooine, the empire is cowering their tracks and tries to keep their involvement hidden.

In ESB, Chewie is shown as suspecting that something is up before the Vader reveal. Indicating that he is able to think.

Bye.
Old Stoneface

 

Yep.

Yep.

I think a fitting end to AOTC would have been the Jedi realizing that the war was a Sith plot with Dooku leading the Seps and some unknown Sith Lord whispering in the ears of powerful senators, possibly even the Chancellor himself.

Set up in ROTS that the Jedi have been trying to secretly uncover who the secret Sith is and that, because of the Jedi's secrecy, they have begun to lose the support of a lot of politicians. Which could lead into how Palpatine is able to turn the senate against the Jedi by the end of the film... because the Jedi had been acting suspiciously trying to uncover the secret Sith.

As for why the Jedi still choose to fight alongside the clones? They don't have a choice. The senate voted for the Jedi to act as Generals. What are the Jedi going to do? Abandon the Republic in its time of need? That'd be political suicide. The Jedi would be ousted. Palpatine wouldn't even need Order 66.

 

The issue here is that, while they could talk about those questions, there's no way for them to currently get the answers, and I think that makes them debating it kinda fruitless. Yes, it'd be nice to see them talk about it, but, while I can agree with the idea of it being fleshed out in a stronger way, I don't know if I agree that means the characters are stupid. Dooku would have no reason to make a clone army, for the republic, and after Dooku is dead, any issue he presented is gone. Yeah, I think the movies could've done more with it. I think that about other things, in this trilogy and the OT. Yeah, I think the jedi lacked a sense of deductive thinking about the situation. But I think stupid is a harsher term than what I would use.

The jedi also weren't handed an army. They found it. It's not like Dooku handed them a free clone army ticket, personally.

Again, I do think similarly in the movie making this story a bit more complex. Like, maybe Dooku is tricking the jedi into thinking that Dooku is trying to discredit the clone army and get the project shut down by the republic, or something like that.

 

The issue is that I think that makes the jedi look stupid.

 

I agree, but having the Jedi actually realize they're stuck between a rock and a hard place, and try to make the best decisions they can while still upholding their own code to protect the Republic (really, they should object to using the clones and refuse to fight in the Republics war, but they feel they can't because they've all sworn an oath) is a completely different type of stupid from what we see in the PT.

By the end of AOTC, there's still more going on concerning the clones simply because there are unanswered questions concerning Obi-Wan's investigation. The Jedi either no longer care, or are too stupid to realize that those loose ends exist in the first place.

The Jedi knowing that something is going on behind the scenes, trying their best to uncover it, and ultimately being too late isn't nearly as dumb as just being oblivious to the issue in the first place, IMHO.

 

The Jedi/Republic were handed a clone army.
The Jedi know that the army was ordered about ten years ago, when there was no seps threat. And it just happens to be ready within days of the Republic getting attacked by the big droid army that seps have built up.
Tp paraphrase George Smiley, "The timing of it makes it suspect."
Also the Jedi know that the army was supposedly ordered at the request of the senate, which is a lie.
They also know that it was supposedly ordered by a Jedi master Sifo-Dyas but they are question marks about that.
This alone would make anyone ask questions and be hesitant.

That the Jedi might not yet have the means for further investigations is not a good enough reason for them not to ask questions.
In Babylon 5, early season 2. The President has been killed when his ship blew up. The vice-President has taken over. Said vice-President got off the mentioned ship just before it blew up. Claiming he had the flu. Causing one character to remark, "Very convenient illness."
They have other info that suggest that this might not have been an accident but deliberate. So a coup of some sorts. But they don't have enough evidence to go public as yet. So they will do their jobs as before but keep their eyes and ears open for information.
This showed the characters to be smart and aware of what is going on.
You even have that in TPM; when Qui-Gon remarks that the TF are acting oddly, different. Showing that he was aware that something else was going on.

Also the Jedi can investigate stuff.
Ex, double check the dates, when was Sifo-Dyas killed and when was the order placed. To confirm what Obi-Wan said or show that he was wrong.
They can ask the Kamino people if they met this "Sifo-Dyas" in person and if so, show them a picture of the real Sifo-Dyas and see if they recognize him. If they don't, show them a picture of Dooku and see if that gets a reaction.

So I think the Jedi would have come across as far smarter if they had discussed some of the many questions that they have, what they know and what it could mean. And saying that they will dig deeper.
Then in the next film you can bring up some of that and this explains why they are suspicious of Palpatine. They think that someone close to him was involved in this. That someone was plotting to start a war.
But before they have solid information, they can not go public. So they must play along.
You could even have that the Jedi's attempt to dig deeper is foiled, unknowingly, by Anakin. Since he trusts Palpatine so much, he talks about what the Jedi are doing and thus Palpatine can easily block them or give them false information.

Lastly, the Jedi know that Dooku is connected to Jango, he was a Jedi so he could have deleted the file so there is every reason to consider what his involvement was here. It might have been random chance but that should not be your starting assumption.
To take a Star Trek example, in DS, "Improbable Cause." They characters are faced with many questions and mysteries and yet they ask questions, they speculate and make suppositions.
You have one Cardassian informer say that they have detected Romulan fleet movements and the possibility of an invasion is something that they have considered even if makes no sense at this point.
So they try to be prepared.

Having the Jedi ask few if any questions makes them seem clueless, like they don't even realize many of the fishy things about the clone army. And thus when it turns on them, they look dumb given all they knew about it.

Bye for now.
Old Stoneface

 

This is the foundation of the problem right here. The Jedi seem to see it as a coincidence, nothing more.

But as Jim Gordon says in TDKR, "You're not allowed to believe in coincidence anymore."

 

I find it odd that Yoda could find nothing wrong with the clones. I believe that he did suspect something because of his last line in the film:"Victory, you say? No, not victory. The shroud of the Dark Side has fallen. Begun, the clone war has. " Yet Yoda cooperated with the clones very well in the clone wars series and in Revenge of the Sith and got along with them, even having a heart to heart with some of them in CW 2008 S1 Episode 1 telling them they each looked different in the Force. Yoda was the only Jedi not caught off guard by the clones, for before they could kill him he got the jump on them, acting on what he had probably always suspected from the beginning.

 

I always interpreted that line as Yoda's admitting defeat. As far as Yoda is concerned, it seems like some unknown person used the dark side to cloud the Jedi's vision in order to start a war. Yoda however seems to feel like the war getting started is this unknown persons endgame... but again, that makes no sense. Wars get started for a reason, they're not just a reason unto themselves.

There's just tons of loose ends still and, like I stated already...

The only way AOTC makes sense is if ROTS would have mentioned a bunch of detective work that lead to dead ends happening between movies. Without that, the Jedi come across like dummies.

 

In other words, many of you wanted the Jedi to live up to Obi-Wan's rose-colored description of the Order in "A New Hope". You didn't want the Jedi to make mistakes that had consequences for them. You wanted them to be one-dimensionally ideal. Perfect. Incapable of making mistakes.

It was the Galactic Senate who had decided to use the clone troopers as the Republic's army. The Senate wanted a military force to deal with the Separatists. And thanks to Obi-Wan's discovery, the senators acquired one. And being the Senate's minions, the Jedi led those forces against the Separatists.

 

Nope, you keep making the flawed assumption that there are only ever two options.
Either the characters are prefect, flawless and never makes any mistakes. Or they are total [MODified: Disallowed Word]. Nothing in between.

What I and others argue is that there are more than two choices, that characters can be be presented as reasonably competent. They can think, they can show suspicion and yet can still be outfoxed by someone more clever than them.

If a writer wants to have the characters to be idiots just so that the plot goes on, that is their choice. It can often bother me when it happens. It bothered me with TLJ, it bothered me here and it bothered me with Battlefield Earth, which had a large number of other flaws in addition to the idiot villains.

This also paints the Senate as less than bright.

But while the Jedi did not make the choice to deploy the clones, they can still choose to trust them or not.
The Jedi can work with the clones, because those are their orders but also show doubt, ask questions, not blindly trust the clones.
Or they can use them, no questions asked and when the clones turn on them, they come across as never having seen that coming and thus as rather dimwitted.
Again in Babylon 5, the good guys suspected that the death of the President was not an accident but since they had not enough evidence, they kept doing their job. But also keeping eyes and ears open and asking questions. They still made mistakes, had flaws, were not perfect.

You keep making it either or. Either the characters are perfect, never makes mistakes, or they are so stupid a six year old child can figure out what they can not.
There are more options here, make them moderately intelligent, reasonably bright, having a modicum of smarts.
That way Palpatine is made even more intelligent as he outwitted a cunning foe, as opposed to fooling a bunch of nit-wits.

Bye.
Old Stoneface

 

I think you dropped these.

The way the PT presents the Jedi and the government, it seems like anyone of moderate intelligence could have become a dictator.

 

I still wonder who the heck paid for it all (or how no one noticed the funds going missing). Like that would be a massive, massive expenditure....and who built all the ships, walkers, equipment, etc (I suppose the Kaminoans)? Seems like it might be really hard to keep such a massive military build up like that secret (although to be fair - the Galaxy is a big place). If the Kaminoans have the resources to just build an entire military one would think they might be running things themselves

 

Ask questions, maybe, but that doesn't mean they'd get answers.

This assumes that the dates wouldn't sync up and/or that whoever ordered it, did it in person. There's no guarantee these would give them information. Like I said, it'd be nice to see these things, and I'd prefer to fill out the investigation of it more, but, as is, it wouldn't necessarily benefit the overall movie structure.

Does that make a real problem, as a whole, anymore than Star Wars has ever had?

 

I don't make assumptions that there are only two options for characters - ideal or [removed disallowed word. /heels]. I keep making "flawed assumptions" many other people harbor these views about characters. I keep making "flawed assumptions" that many other Star Wars fans believe the Jedi should have been ideal in the Prequel Trilogy. And when they proved to be flawed, many of these fans got upset about it. Just to correct you.

Between Zam Wesell's attempt on Padme's life and Obi-Wan's arrival on Geonosis, the movie had the latter engaging in a good deal of investigation about the Kamino dart and his discovery of the Clone army. But once he made his rushed report to the Jedi Order and the Senate, he got caught and everything spiraled out of control.

 

The Jedi won't know what answers they will get, if any, if they don't ask any questions.
So no reason is given why the Jedi should not ask questions.

Again, the police or other investigators don't know for sure that they will get information and yet they try.
Sometimes it goes nowhere and sometimes they crack the case. Not asking any questions or doing any digging will pretty much assure that the case will remain unsolved.
So the Jedi have leads to pursue and no given reason not to.

As for the problems it would solve, first it would make the Jedi come across as more competent and less than the clueless dimwits they seem like now. Not the intent but it was the result for me.
Second, if the film throws in a bunch of questions and then don't bother to answer them, then the question becomes why? People have taken issue with the ST and the "mystery boxes" found in TFA, several of which were never answered. Like how did Maz get Luke's lightsabre?

Why have the Kamino file be deleted if nothing comes from that?
Yoda learns about it, says he will meditate on it and then he never talks about it again.
Lucas did plan to revisit Sifo-Dyas in RotS but the film had too much plot that had to happen, so it was removed.

Nope, this is just you doing what you have done here and in other threads, use straw-men.
You ascribe a position to those you disagree with only to knock it down.

No one has argued for "perfect" Jedi, or "Ideal" Padme or thought that Leia was "flawless" in the OT.
Obi-Wan and Yoda misled Luke and kept the truth from him in order to manipulate him. They could not see what Luke saw, that there was good in Vader.

I did not expect flawless Jedi, first because the OT showed them as flawed and second because such characters tend to be dull. I did expect them to have basic competency tough, average intelligence.
What I did not expect was characters that you could fool with a card that says "Turn card over" on both sides.

Before that, Yoda did have time to look into the tampering with their files. He could dig deeper, maybe find out when the tampering happened, by who and maybe if something else has been deleted.
But no, all he says he will do is to meditate on it. Try not to hurt yourself there. And then the issue is forgotten.
After Obi-Wan gave his first report, the Jedi could have sent someone to dig deeper on Kamino while Obi-Wan goes after Jango. But again, they do nothing.

And even after things have gone bad, the Jedi never even asks the question, "Hey, Jango Fett was the template for the clone army and yet he was working with Dooku. Could there be a connection?"
Or, "Could the same person that deleted the Kamino file be involved with the ordering of the Clone army?."
Or "If Sifo-Dyas did not order the army, who did?" "Jango Fett mentioned a person called Tyrannus that hired him for the Job, do you have any idea who that could be?"
These would take a few seconds to say and show that the Jedi are aware of what is going on.
But as before, nothing.

Bye.
Old Stoneface

 

Which I think may speak to what I was talking about, in whether or not it benefits the movie's structure to do these things.

You say bunch of questions, but I don't think I really thought they were questions. I think I remember thinking they were answered in Dooku being revealed to be Tyrannus the one who hired Jango and Palpatine being behind it, and the whole Order 66.

The leads the jedi have, if they were to pursue them, like I said, I think would be nice to see displayed on screen and could show what you suggest, to you, but it would have to not garner answers, and, like above, I question if it would benefit the movie's structure. I think the movie could've found a way around it. But, like I think I've said before, I think the other movies have their issues, for me, too, in things I think more could've been done with.

 

Interesting point about Yoda being the only Jedi that sensed what was coming once order 66 got deployed. It’s possible that he was shown later during that sequence which implied he had built up negative force feelings as the others were murdered and this actually tipped him off more than some Jedi power. But, it is Yoda…he always a little more force juice than the rest of them.

I agree here, mostly. The sequels bother me overall but Luke’s lines to Rey about the Jedi being romanticized even though they had failure all around them really does make sense. I love that exchange. Even little Anakin tells QuiGon that no one can kill a Jedi in TPM. It’s clear that throughout Star Wars history the Jedi have been painted as saints and saviors with nary a defect. It ain’t even close though.

I do remember though that after ANH that I too assumed that these Jedi were godlike perfect. Until of course you see that Vader was one of them and obviously that didn’t go well.

Stoneface - I kind of see your points here. Some are good, some are a little iffy but decent job overall here. I’m a prequel trilogy lover so I’ll usually find mostly positive things in these films as much as possible. I felt they did devote a decent amount of time to the investigation but some of it did just fall off the itinerary rather quickly and did feel unsatisfying. The Kamino detective stuff is some of the my favorite Star Wars content ever too. I would have watched a whole film on just that, lol.

No doubt that the Jedi skipped some details and didn’t do as much as they could have. I know that this is a little bit of a convenient generality but Yoda and Mace both, more than once, elude to how the dark side clods everything and their judgement. Again, that’s a little vague maybe but it does IMO cover for some of their follies. That being said, for some of this you didn’t really need to be ultra force sensitive to look into. Just asking the right people the right questions would have helped here. Maybe the Jedi should have outsourced the detective work?

 

If the structure of the film hinges on several of the characters being idiots then you have an Idiot Plot and should seriously reconsider said structure.
Like with TLJ and how several character there have to be idiots in order for the plot to work.

And issue is that the film presents the Jedi with a whole bunch of questions, most of which the Jedi never bother with.
Ex, who do the Jedi think ordered the clone army? Sifo-Dyas or someone else?
If the latter, who do they think could be behind it?
What do the Jedi think about the Jango-Dooku connection? Was it mere chance or something more serious?
What do the Jedi do about their tampered files? Who do they think did it? Do they make any effort to find out?

The film hinges on the Jedi accepting the clone army and them not being careful as the clone army will then turn on them. You could construct the story/plot in such a way that the Jedi are given enough reasons to think that the clone army might be kosher. That they do their due diligence and get enough answers to satisfy them. At least for now.
Or you could just have them accept it despite the many fishy things around it and then have them be taken totally by surprise later. This does make them seem stupid.

I think that the Jedi could ask questions and they would then lead into RotS. Where they suspect Palpatine. They think that someone in Palpatine's office was involved with the clone army but they don't have proof. So part of the reason they ask Anakin to spy on Palpatine is to try and find the evidence they need to go public.

Or don't have the film be so blatant with "The Clone Army is Really Fishy!!!!"
Have Sifo-Dyas be dead AFTER the order and have Mace and Yoda speculate that he could indeed have done this. Have Jango say that he knows the name but never met him. Ignore the bit with their files being tampered with. In all, it looks to the Jedi like Sifo-Dyas did place this order. You could even have that him be known for being unusually good in seeing the future. So the Jedi theorize that he foresaw the spes war and took steps.
But we the audience knows that Dooku is Tyrannus and so we can put the pieces together.

Another problem is that the republic apparently have no armed forced other than the Jedi. So they must use the clones. But 1,2 million clones is a really number low for a galactic war.

Bye for now.
Blackboard Monitor

 

I don't think it requires them to be idiots. But I think it has the movie not overexplain, as is. What you suggest, I think isn't necessarily idiotic, but more the characters having their hands tied, story wise. The questions they ask, they could ask, but they'd never discover the truth, and, structure wise in the interest of the story, would be a waste of time. I think the characters could be shown to investigate this and still gain no answers. I think the plot goes along irregardless. I don't think the jedi need to be idiots, to you, for it to happen.

I think the only real, structured issue, in the movie is the Dooku-Jango connection. I think that maintains with your investigating Palps option.

I think Sifo-Dyas date of death being confirmed as after and Jango knowing the name but never meeting him, and no tampering with the files doesn't really change things, as a whole. I think the story maintains as it is, with similar issues. To me, the Jango-Dooku connection is still there. An idea God blessed me with would is, if Jango is kept, to heavily shade that situation more and have Dooku lead the jedi to believe that he'd hired Jango for the assassination to lure the jedi to Jango in hopes of sabotaging the clone army and ensure the republic wouldn't use them.

I didn't disagree that I'd like to see more done with this, but it's not much different, to me, than something like Leia's emotions about the destruction of her home planet breezed past, for that character. I think a lot of these movies have their issues. I'd prefer to see things changed in all of them.