PT Thoughts/General Discussion: Attack of the Clones

I just wanted characters that acted like how human beings act. Marrying someone who a few days ago creeped you out for being awkward and weird is not how normal people act.. unless I'm to believe that Padme has some sort of Stockholm type thing going on.

"Oh, he was creeping me out, but now that I've gotten to know him, and he killed a bunch of aliens, HE'S THE ONE!!!"

 

Still the best Star Wars film!

 

Then again, her being creeped out is just something you read into it.

 

To be honest, the thing that always bugged me is why Anakin and Padme had to meet in TPM, when he was just 9 and she was 14.
What I got from TPM is that she clearly played a mother figure for Anakin when he was alone and scared, she comforted him on the space ship, and expressed her care for him.

But then in AotC we find out, that Anakin was actually dreaming about her for all those years, and he gives her creepy looks that make Padme feel uncomfortable(as she admitted), and she herself reiterated, that to her "he will always be that boy from Tatooine" - I never really caught any indication of romantic feelings from her, and she clearly actively tried to distance herself from him(at least in that first day, until she inexplicably fell under Anakin's charm), whereas he expressed an unhealthy obsession with her.

It is clear from (at least) AotC, that their relationship is presented as wrong and unholy, and they admit as much all the time, that it is wrong and it will destroy them, and their forbidden, secret marriage is paralleled with the Emperor overseeing an army of stormtroopers, with Imperial march playing in the background, all the while Yoda, Mace and Obi-Wan discuss that the shroud of the Dark Side has fallen.

Was Lucas going for some kind of Oedipal undertones here? It sort of looks like it, especially with Anakin's self-fullfilling prophecy thing going on in Revenge of the Sith, and sort of later being redeemed by his children. It always seemed to me that Padme substituted Anakin's mother figure in TPM, when he had to leave his real mother behind. But then in AotC they "fall in love," and later Anakin expresses strong anger and jealousy at the figure, who is "the closest thing he has to a father."

There is just something that bugs me about the whole thing. Not only because it is written in quite a peculiar way, to say the least, but subconsciously, you just know something is fundamentally wrong with that relationship. Sure, it is meant to be portrayed as wrong and unholy, but did it have to be that wrong? What I am getting at is that it could have been, perhaps, better, had Anakin met Padme in Attack of the Clones, without knowing her as a child, and if she had some real reason to fall in love with him, besides him being Hayden Christensen in his 20's. I don't get her point of view at all. Just 10 years ago she was comforting that little boy, who just left his mother and his home behind, and now she is his lover - despite her saying a few days ago, that she still viewed him as "that boy from Tatooine." I perfectly get Anakin's point of view, and his fixation on her, as she made the strongest impression on him as a kid, and she was there to comfort him. But I don't get why she would follow it. It never sit right with me, and I, personally, never bought it. Fundamentally, to me, there was just not enough chemistry between the two of them to sell it, not to mention everything I had mentioned before about the very nature of their relationship. So, you just have to accept for a fact - she falls in love with him, deal with it. This is now, arguably, the most significant plot point of the entire saga.

The question of the nature of their relationship remains - it is the cornerstone of the entire PT(and retroactively the OT, and everything in-between) - and whether you accept it as the catalyst for Anakin's downfall and turn into Darth Vader or not is what largely determines your enjoyment and acceptance of the story.

Interestingly enough, Lucas was keenly aware of it himself:

 

I'm curious. What makes you think that Anakin had creeped out Padme? Aren't you projecting your feelings upon her character? And honestly, as much as I enjoyed Leia and Han's romance, I never thought it was the bees' knees. I don't think it is any better or worse than Anakin and Padme's romance. It was just as quick, but it was different. And people have been known to get married shortly after meeting their future spouses for the first time.

 

keeps looking at her that way on her way out

 

Anakin looking at her like that says nothing about what she is feeling. You're projecting your own feelings on Padmé.
She says it makes her feel uncomfortable and in light of what's to come, that's clearly intended to be read as her being attracted to him.
Honestly, that's how I took it the first time I saw that scene.

 

I am merely reiterating what the character said in the scene. She didn't say it in any playful manner(to suggest she is attracted to him, or anything similar), she said it rather dry and blunt, after which she turned away and left. That's what was in the scene. I don't project anything. In this entire scene, she still had a mental image of him as a child from 10 years ago, and wondering how he grew up, particularly after his remark about "letting go of our pride, and do what is requested of us" - which impressed her in a way that he is thinking like an adult(until he threw a tantrum about Obi-Wan). But Anakin was looking at her in a different, particular way. Which made her feel uncomfortable - that she said. It was not exactly subtle.

 

She didn't say it in a playful way because she wasn't flirting. The attraction she felt made her uncomfortable because it wasn't appropriate for her to feel that way about her Jedi bodyguard.
That point wasn't exactly subtle.

 

I do not care about the intention of the scene. All I care about is what is actually in the scene. I shouldn't have to watch BTS footage of Lucas explaining what he meant; it should come across in the actual film.

If we go off of Lucas' intentions, then the entire PT is 10 outta 10 ...but intentions don't mean much if you can't convey them in your movie. When I watch THE ROOM, I understand what the intentions were for each scene ...but that doesn't change the fact that the movie is horrendous when taken seriously.

 

I'm not referring to BTS footage; I'm referring to what's in the movie.

 

And what is in the film are two things.
1) Padme telling Anakin not to look at her in that way as it makes her uncomfortable. So IN the film, Padme flat out says that Anakin looking at her makes her uncomfortable.

2) Padme turning off the cameras in her room because, according to Anakin, she did not like him looking.
And remember, someone just tried to kill Padme and will very likely try again. That is why she has all this security. But she turns off the cameras that are part of that protection. And why? Because she did not like Anakin looking at her when she sleeps/undresses.
So Padme prefers to risk her own life rather than having Anakin look at her.

So with both of these examples it becomes kind of hard not to read that as Padme being at least a little creeped out by Anakin.
Possibly not the intention but I am not judging the intent but the result. Jar Jar was intended to be funny but I did not laugh. So in that regard, the character did not work for me.

Bye for now.
Old Stoneface

 

It's not hard at all. I always read it as intended. And when Padmé said "I've been dying a little bit each day since you came back into my life", my view was strengthened.

I haven't even mentioned Jar Jar's "Shesa happy. Happier den mesa seein' her in a longo time", but there's that too.
Plus the fact that Padmé lets Anakin kiss her.

All signs point to Padmé being happy to have Anakin around and feeling very attracted to him.
She did cover the cameras, yes. Probably because at that point, she felt it was important not to give in to her feelings and to avoid encouraging Anakin. Because he was a Jedi and she was a Senator.

 

No. SOME signs point to Padme liking Anakin being around. OTHER signs point to Padme being creeped out by Anakin. Because Lucas wanted Anakin to start his path toward the darkness WHILE ALSO wanting Padme to want to marry him by the films end. Which is why she is declaring her love to him only a few hours after he went on a murderous rampage.

The film is a mess.

 

I disagree.

The only truly problematic aspect of the love story is that it reinforces the old myth that a woman's "no" means "yes". Interestingly enough, the love story in TESB has the same problem.

 

And let's not forget about good ol' fashioned body language. I would love to find out what direction Natalie Portman was given during her scenes in AOTC.

 

Yes. She listened his complaints against Kenobi and the Jedi, she comforts him and when he looks at her in that manner she's very confident and firm. Not creeped.

This is way out of context. From the beginning of the movie Padme dismisses the danger she's in. She's not surprised by the explosion of the ship with the decoy, Typho in front of her says the situation is more dangerous that she'll admit and then she says that she needs answers, not more security. The line about Anakin is not really about him; he thinks she doesn't like him watching her, but had Kenobi been there, would it have been differently? Would she let him watch her?

In the first one she told him his look makes her feel uncomfortable, but has she shown that? Show, don't tell? I can't remember.
The second one, no.

Yes, her decoy dies in front of her, she plays a bait for her killer, she decides to go and save Obi-Wan and fights in Geonosis arena. Not to mention her acts in TPM. And she's creeped out by Anakin? Strange woman.

 

You only highlight how inconsistent the writing is in the film.
Early on Padme is quite sure that Dooku is the one trying to kill her but offers no evidence or reason as to why. Not long after she has apparently forgotten about that and says that she wants to know who is trying to kill her.
When she arrives at Geonosis she wants to find a diplomatic solution and try to negotiate the release of Obi-Wan. To do that she lands in a random location and goes to poke around and Anakin starts killing the natives when they approach in a threatening manner. Just how did she think this would work? That they would be able to sneak around and just stumble across the leadership, who would not call for the guards for some reason and then they could settle this diplomatically? If that was her goal, why not land openly and make herself known and ask to speak with the leaders of Geonosis?
But we needed an action scene so making sense is not required.

First, if you want to argue that she would have turned the cameras off even if it was Obi-Wan then you need to prove that. Otherwise it is baseless speculation.
Further, she had cameras in her room, if she would never have them on no matter what, why were they there? She would never have put them up or have them taken down if they were put there without her knowledge. And if the film wanted to establish that she would have turned the cameras off for anyone then have Anakin say, "She turned off the cameras, I guess she does not want ANYONE looking." Simple.
But instead the film has Anakin say that he is the reason. So the film has Padme turn off the cameras and the reason is Anakin looking. If the film did not want to establish this then it would be very easy to avoid, see above.

Second, Padme dismisses the danger but is also not surprised by the explosion?
If she did not think she was in danger then she would have been surprised by the explosion. And if she expected a bomb or something and took steps to not be in the ship, then how is she dismissing the danger?
She wants answers yes because that is the only way to resolve this. As long as she does not know who is trying to kill her, despite her saying that she thinks it is Dooku, then the attacks will continue. And more security would make it harder to kill her but will never be 100% fool-proof.

She did show it by turning the cameras off in her room. Suggesting that she prefers to risk her own life rather than having Anakin look at her.

Yes she is quite strange, the bait thing makes very little sense. Did she think that the assassin would climb the building, cut their way through the window and enter her room to kill her with a knife?
SW is a fairly high tech setting. She was in a room with big windows, who were not very sturdy as a person could throw themselves through it. There might have been some shield as the droid did something before it cut through the glass. But again, it did not stop Obi-wan from jumping through it.
So the assassin could have fired a rocket at her room, killing her. Or remote controlled a speeder filled with explosives and boom.
The droid could have been armed with a weapon, gas or a bomb and Padme would be dead.
For that matter, why not have cameras pointed AT the window as that is the most obvious place for an attack? Or have cameras outside the window. Why was R2 there? He was seemingly "asleep", great guard he was. And R2 should have been monitoring the window as again, it is the most obvious place where an assassin will try.

Bye for now.
Blackboard Monitor

 

Thank you! Finally, someone got it right.

What are you talking about?

 

I am talking about the droid that came with the killer bugs in AotC.
It was able to get near the window, cut through said window and drop off the bugs without triggering any sort of alarm. R2 did not see it either.
Had the droid been equipped with something more direct, like a weapon, bomb or gas, then Padme would likely be dead.
Ex the droid tosses a grenade into the room and BOOM!

So given this and given that the big window would be seen as the most obvious way for an assassin to try and kill Padme. There are guards in the floors below, there are Jedi in the same floor so the window is the way that an assassin will likely try.
Therefore having some cameras pointed AT the window would make sense, or having some cameras outside the window or have R2 watch the window and not be "asleep".

Lastly, why did the droid linger? It did react when discovered and tried to leave but why return to Zam?
That is stupid, that would enable people to track it to her. Have it simply self-destruct when noticed.

Bye.
Old Stoneface

 

If all plans were airtight, how would anyone ever win?

 

I think @Samuel Vimes has watched the RLM reviews. IDK, I just have a hunch.

 

To quote SF Debris, unless you are making total comedy or mindless action, thinking should never be the enemy.
Good writers try to make plans that make sense, that fit the setting, the situation, who the characters are and what they know. They can certainly fail, say if there was some element that they were not aware of. Or they are established as arrogant and overconfident and thus overestimated their chances.
You can also have the characters admit that their plan is risky and dangerous but the situation is so dire that they have no choice. Ex in LotR the plan to destroy the Ring was called "A fools hope." But it was the best they could do given the situation.

Not so good writers tend to focus more on what the plot needs to happen as opposed to what the characters would do or could do. Ex in Star Trek they run into a problem that they could solve instantly with the tech they have and sometimes they have some excuse why it does not work here but other times they just forget that they can do this. Because otherwise the episode or film is over in five minutes.
Sometimes the mentality seems to be "If plans are meant to fail then why bother trying to make them make sense, they are meant to fail."
Other times, plans are meant to succeed despite overwhelming odds and at times you have the other side be very stupid or you do a Deus ex Machina.
Ex TLJ, Hux has to be very stupid or else the Resistance would get destroyed five minutes into the film and we can't have that.
Or in Battlefield Earth were the bad guys are to man, total idiots

Take ANH and the attack on the DS. The rebels have the plans and studied them. They found two flaws, a) that the DS defenses were designed against a large scale assault, like capital ships and did not consider one man fighters to be any threat. And b) the thermal exhaust port.
So they design their attack accordingly, they use only fighters as they can get past the outer defenses and be able to get to their target. They are aware that the approach will not be easy and to hit will be very hard.
The Empire are shown to be able to think, once they realize that their guns are of little use, they send out fighters. They are even able to analyze the rebel attack, see what they are doing and conclude that there is a danger.
Overall good writing.

In closing, films can often have plots or plans that require some narrative short cuts, some convenient situations etc. And most often if a film, book or TV episode don't overuse those things then I am usually fine with it. An attempt is made to make it make sense.
But if a film has too much of those things, that the writing is lazy or the plot contrived, then it tends to bother me.
So it is a matter of degree, don't take too many narrative short cuts and it is fine. Overuse it and things fall apart.

"Thank you for your contribution Arthur."

Bye.
Blackboard Monitor

 

Even in your example @Samuel Vimes of quality storytelling/good writing there are flaws one could easily point out. In ANH, Leia knows the falcon is being tracked but still leads the Death Star to the secret rebel base she earlier wouldn't reveal the location of despite torture, and the total annihilation of her home planet. It didn't have to be that way. They could've attempted to locate the tracking device and disable it; not placing the Rebels in a precarious position where they had to figuratively and quite literally come up with a solution under the gun. In AOTC, Padme is trying to bait her attacker into making a move. She does this in a very careless and reckless way that Obi-Wan chastises "What is she thinking?" So the film is openly admitting that it's a little half-baked, but there's a logic to it. They want to capture the assassin and interrogate them: simple. Questioning why the droid didn't self-destruct or use something more incendiary, well the film answers that "This time we need to try something a little more subtle." Is it perfect and beyond reproach how it all plays out? No. It's a little wonky but for narrative and dramatic purposes I think it's adequate enough to set the chase in motion, which is the entire point ultimately.

 

Not quite.

First, Anakin and Padme had one scene in a movie before the cameras in my bedroom scene, and it was with Obi-Wan, Typho, Jar Jar and others. Now, I'm unable to detect the part where Padme is so much creeped by Anakin that she turned the cameras off. I can, however, see the part where Anakin is frustrated by her as she hardly even recognized him. I can understand Anakin blames himself when she turned the cameras off, because he thought they know each other so it should be OK.
Why were the cameras in her room? Well, I'd say, because she's a protected person. A senator whose life is in danger. She may resist to the idea, but that's how it is.

She's creeped that much? Of a boy who helped her get off Tatooine, who destroyed the droid control ship and wanted to find out who wants to kill her? What, is she stupid?

But the most important part is that the Rebels had half an hour to destroy the DS as it emerged behind Yavin 4. There's an entire imperial fleet looming around the galaxy, but only the DS is able to destroy the Rebels.
Why not sending an entire fleet to surround and crush them? They just won their first battle, destroy them!