PT Thoughts/General Discussion: Attack of the Clones

Here's how I can happily defend this film. If someone told me that this film isn't worthy of a Days of Futures Past style reboot, I'll rebut and defend that it should!

 

That is one interpretation, another is that Yoda is so used to the Force doing his thinking for him that when that fails he has little to fall back on. Later in the film Yoda is surprised to learn that the clone army has been built and they didn't see it. Why would they? The Kamino people have been making other clone armies for years and not once did Yoda sense that. A person used to the Force telling them all major events ahead of time could, if this ability goes away, be unprepared to look at real facts instead and draw their own conclusions.

Yoda tries to see through the Force, fails and thus is not able to give a direct answer. NOTE, he doesn't disagree with Mace, which suggests at the very least that the seps resorting to violence is a distinct possibility.

Whether the Jedi are in favor of the army bill or not is less than clear.

I think Mace's statement is clear that the seps starting some kind of hostile action against the republic is a very real and likely possibility. Again no one disagrees with Mace. Yoda can not confirm or deny because his Force sight is clouded. So Mace could just be looking at the direct facts and making a conclusion from that. And Mace gives no other qualifier other than failed negotiations for the seps starting something. He never said "If the negotiations fail, there won't be enough Jedi to protect the republic IF the seps turn violent." So to him, failed negotiations would be enough.

Again I have to reiterate what my initial argument was. It was suggested that Padme thinks that Dooku really, really wants war but as long as the Republic doesn't have an army, he won't get it.
So negotiations failing doesn't matter at all, as long as the republic doesn't vote for the army, the seps can never, ever initiate any kind of attack on the republic. That is my main argument, I don't think the film supports this and I would even say it flat out contradicts it. The seps we see are perfectly willing to attack or use the threat of an attack against the republic and they would probably be less eager to do this if the republic wasn't defense-less.

And yet even when told about an imminent attack the Senate STILL won't vote yes to army.
But instead they are willing to give up their own powers to Palpatine so he can approve the army.
Which is another issue that doesn't make much sense. They won't approve the army but they will give unlimited powers to someone so that he can approve said army. So why didn't they just approve the army?
Sounds like the Senate is trying to circumvent itself.

Which brings up more questions, there hasn't been a full scale war for a millennia and the Republic has no soldiers and presumably hasn't had soldiers for some time. But there are a whole lot of private armies, both droid and clone armies. And the TF's droid army was even "battle hardened".
So who have these private armies been fighting exactly? And if there has been many local wars, hasn't it occurred to the republic that they could get attacked? Esp since they lack an army?
If the Jedi have dealt with these wars, did they do it all on their own? Since the republic have no soldiers to give them, it seems so.

Also, the techno-union guy told Dooku that "With these new battle droids we've built for you, you'll have the finest army in the galaxy. So it seems that some of the seps have been preparing for this for some time.

My point was that the various seps had been told in advance what this treaty was all about, that they would combine their armies and use it against the republic. There wasn't much if any surprise or objection to what Dooku was proposing. Which shows that the leaders of the seps are perfectly willing and able to START hostile actions against the republic. Which is the main argument against Padme thinking that the seps will not ever start anything.

Also, Mace did think that there was a threat of an attack and no one really disagreed with him.

Them not having an army doesn't matter if they can immediately get one from those that support them. Padme was sure that the seps could and would turn to the TF and co for help. So the seps have access to a military.
And given what she knows of the TF and how little they care about laws or attacking those that can't defended themselves. If the TF support the seps then she should be vary of them.

These "normal" seps that you keep talking about are never seen or shown in the film. All we know is that they want to leave the republic, they have already caused a lot problems and conflicts and if negotiations with them fail, the violence could escalate even more. They are also apparently friendly with the TF, the bad guys from the previous film.

What the films show us of the seps are the TF and co and they are later called the Separatists leaders so then as far as I am concerned, they represent the seps. So Dooku, the TF, Banking clan etc are what the seps are like. If Lucas wanted to convey something different then he should have put these "Normal" seps IN the films. And it is a pity that he didn't because I can sort of see that he was going for. But instead the seps we do see come across as little more than greedy bad guys with few if any redeeming features.

Nothing at all in the films suggest that the "Normal" seps would have objected to Dooku's plan. Dooku never suggest anything of the sort and no one of the other seps talks about that either. If what Dooku planned to do was so against what the "Normal" seps were like, then wouldn't that be an issue? That if they do this then all these "Normal" seps would turn against Dooku and his evil cabal in disgust over their actions. Instead the opposite is suggested, Dooku talks about 10 000 more systems joining them with all the support that he gets.
In all, it doesn't suggest that seps are totally against violence or that they will never initiate anything.

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Again we don't know why Padme suspects Dooku because she gives no reason for her accusations and then she doesn't talk about again. And since Dooku is the leader of the seps and if she thinks he is this warmonger, then why does she thinks that the seps can be negotiated with?
A person that is willing to stoop to murder isn't one I would trust.
It would make more sense if she accused Nute, since he has a serious grudge against her.
The "normal" seps have already shown that they are willing to cause all sorts of problems and Mace thinks that they can indeed start some sort of violence if negotiations fail.

And have the seps left or are they threatening to leave? The dialogue in the film suggest that some have already left the republic. If they have, what are the negotiations about? To bring them back or to settle trade, borders etc? If they haven't yet left, what are the negotiations about? Just to stay?

Bye for now.
The Guarding Dark

 

Samuel Vimes you are attempting to apply logic to a film which has very little. The reason they don't have an army is because the plot requires them not to have one so they can then get one. Doesn't make a lick of sense for a massive republic to be without any armed forces in a galaxy with all these private armies running around and supposedly fighting someone.

 

They're not without any armed forces. As we see in Episode I, planets have their own local defense forces. The Jedi are also around to "mediate" conflicts. Before the time of the prequels, that was always enough to maintain peace in the galaxy.

The debate in Episode II is about creating a grand unified army directly under the control of the Senate. Presumably, before the clones were discovered, this would have been achieved by combining and federalizing the local forces.

 

So you're arguing they're a confederation? Because a federal republic has a national army…always. Even the United States during the confederation period had a small standing army as well as each sovereign state having militias. The GFFA republic not having any army with private armed forces roaming around makes zero sense.

edit:
And the non-army issue aside, where the heck is the republic navy? You have a massive amount of space between worlds and no navy?

What the heck kind of republic is this? Where does it even have any jurisdiction? It apparently doesnt have any planetary jurisdiction nor intragalactic.

So where does the republic even exist?

 

The Republic is a government which resembles a confederation in some ways, and a federation in others--a perfectly plausible governmental set-up.

We know that the Republic has a small standing army in the form of the Jedi Knights. In peace time they act more like police officers crossed with diplomats, but we see that they're considered highly capable when it comes to settling conflicts, and are basically invincible when squaring off against conventional soldiers.

And for all we know, the Republic may very well also have a small standing army of traditional soldiers, as well. We don't know either way, but it's not really important--because the debate is about creating a Grand Army of the Republic strong enough to stand up against a confederation of thousands of star systems, as opposed to settling conflicts that take place on the scale of single star systems.

The Republic hasn't had a full-scale war since its formation, so clearly their current set-up has been working perfectly well for a very long time. It's all perfectly plausible within the context of a fictional sci-fi galaxy.

 

In the EU, there's the Judicial Forces:

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Judicial_Forces

which is how we have characters like Yularen engage in battles with other characters like Trench, before the Clone Wars break out - and talk about their past experiences.

 

Yes, I would have mentioned that, but as we know such EU elements are still in continuity limbo.

As far as currently canon lore goes, we could assume Yularen had experience fighting in one of the local planetary militias. Though yeah, I would personally revert to the assumption that he fought in the Judicial Forces.

 

The_Phantom_Calamari that is an excellent explanation. It never occurred to me they could be a mixed system of government. Those are rare but not unheard of.

So basically the jedi were enough of a deterrent against aggressors to keep the peace in the millennia of peace between the two galactic wars?

Makes sense.

 

It seems like the Republic controlled most of the known galaxy, save for a few areas like Hutt Space. What credible aggressors could there even be? The main reason we have an army in the U.S. is to combat external threats, but if the U.S. was the only country on Earth, there would be no external threats.

It seems like conflicts would be limited to those between planets or, at the very most, small groups of planets--in which case the local militias would duke it out, with the Senate likely sending some Jedi to guide the process to a peaceful resolution. Though I would assume warfare between two Republic member states would be highly illegal and would lead to harsh federal penalties, meaning such conflicts would be rare. Local armies were probably more useful for deterring piracy and for maintaining order within a local government's sovereign territories.

The only threat requiring a large army would be if a large number of systems teamed up and declared war on the rest of the galaxy, like in Episode II (and like in the American Civil War). But things would have to get very, very bad in order for it to come to the point where thousands of member states with varying personal agendas could all agree that it was in their best interests to wage a unified war on the central government.

 

True. The republic in the GFFA seems to be the galactic hegemon.

But wait, the CIS never declared war on the republic did they? See, I have a big problem with the way the CIS is portrayed(or rather not in this case). We don't get enough motivation from them in the film to see why they are leaving or would risk leaving.

 

They were gearing up to declare war on the Rebublic when Obi-Wan dropped in on them and discovered their plans.

As to their motivation--well, in the script, Dooku says this:

Unfortunately, his speech was truncated in the movie. I'm not sure why; maybe Lucas took the criticisms of Episode I to heart and decided that stuff was too boring. Or maybe it was just cut for time because Lucas felt it wasn't necessary. I don't know. To be honest, I think it's pretty easy to understand what the trade barons were getting out of the deal, even without those lines.

Now, maybe there should have been a line or two explaining the motivations of the Separatists who weren't corporatists. But at the same time, we are told that Dooku, the leader of the movement, is a political idealist--this would seem to imply that the Separatist movement is in large part interested in doing away with the corruption that's become endemic in the Republic. Again, this is something that's not that hard to figure out, anyway. All the information is there. It's just not laid out super explicitly.

Maybe that's a flaw in the movie, but not necessarily a fatal one. I think the idea of an idealistic Separatist movement co-opted by corporate interests was communicated effectively enough, by Star Wars standards.

 

The Republic doesn't have an army and planets like Naboo vote in 14 year old girls to be their leader.

You can try and find reasons for this but in the end it's just fantasy and doesn't make a huge amount of sense.

 

Wow. Never meant this thread to go this far...seems like I created a monster! lol some great discussion here but in the end the film still seems to have illogical plot points...far worst than PM

 

Great explanation. I really appreciate it. Makes sense

 

Never said there weren't things I didn't enjoy about it, just want more clarity on plot points

 

Not to me and this bothered me the first time I saw the film.
The deleted scene when Padme talks to the senate was much better and made better sense.
There she accuse the warmongers in the senate for being behind the attack, that someone that wants the bill to pass is trying to silence her voice.

I know why the scene is in the film, since Dooku doesn't appear until halfway through the film, we need a scene where he is talked about and explained. Problem to me is that Padme offers no explanation as to why she thinks Dooku is behind it and when she meets Obi-Wan and Anakin, all talk of Dooku is gone. Despite Padme saying that she wants to know who is trying to kill her. Umm you know that already, you think it is Dooku. So why didn't she mention it here?

The other problem with the scene is that it spoils the surprise about Dooku being a good guy or bad guy. I think the film tried to blur the lines with Dooku and tried to set up a mystery about who was behind the assassination attempt. But Padme tells us the answer right away so mystery gone.

I think that the senate scene should have stayed in the film, then Padme wanting to know exactly who tried to kill her makes sense and learning that Dooku was behind it is then more of a surprise.

Bye for now.
Blackboard Monitor[/quote]



Great explanation. Very good contrast to what mikeximus said. Hmmm...you make me feel like padme's suspicion is still unexplained... Agree with you on that deleted scene...

 

This movie reminds me of the editing mess that was Batman Forever, many scenes that would have made it a better movie, for some people, were cut, resulting in the mess that it turned out to be. If scenes in ATOC, such as the diplomatic, interrogation, and lost 20 were kept in, and scenes such as the 3PO antics, and chase scenes were cut, it would have ended up being a better movie to me.

 

It seems to be a favorite amongst the younger generations, and that's alright by me.

 

Man oh man the Lost 20 scene goes a long way in giving some motivation for Dooku. I really like that scene. Same with the Dooku speech to Padme during her trial on Geonosis.

Wish those scenes had been left in.

In defense of AOTC, I love the Coruscant cityscapes during the hot rod chase. I remember in the movie theater when Kenobi was falling and Anakin was flying in to catch him, there was an amazing sense of depth ILM created for those CG backgrounds. Awesome.

edit: here is the exact scenes in the chase sequence I was speaking of. I was just in awe at how ILM essentially shot Ewan against blue screen and then added in so much depth to this scene.

Not the highest quality image but still:

 

The Lost Twenty scene would have been redundant. We get Dooku's motivation during his conversation with Obi-Wan on Geonosis. It's a better way to deliver that information, too, because it's coming straight from the horse's mouth as opposed to someone just telling us about it.

 

But when Obi-Wan talks with Dooku we already know that he was involved in the hit on Padme and that he has built a big army and plans to use it against the Republic and enforce his demands.
This makes him clearly a villain and clouds everything he says to Obi-Wan. To me it came across as Dooku just yanking Obi-Wan's chain and mixing lies with truth just to mess with him.

Since Jango ran to him, I assumed that he had ordered the clone army and so he was staging a fake war. And at the end we see that is exactly what he has been doing but it wasn't very surprising.

Bye for now.
Mr "Insert-Name-Here."

 

I disagree with your perception of Dooku when he speaks to Obi entirely. He was being straight and Obi was foolish not to listen to him.

 

So if Dooku was being sincere, then why does he continue to hold Obi Wan against his will, and then condemn him to execution?

The fact that Dooku put terms on Obi Wan's release, by saying that Obi Wan has to believe what Dooku was saying in order to go free, shows that Dooku is being far from sincere. Doing the right thing, releasing Obi Wan, has nothing to do with whether Obi Wan believes Dooku is being sincere...

 

For some.