Saga Thoughts on a Recent Article About Star Wars Fandom

This is a good article and should lead to an informed discussion about Star Wars fandom in general.

After The Obi-Wan Kenobi Racism Backlash, What Do Star Wars Fans Want? (msn.com)

 

I think racism is becoming less acceptable and mainstream and in response racists are becoming louder and more emboldened because they think they are the victims. So I don’t know if the world is getting worse or if we are just shining a light in the corner and causing roaches to scurry (I feel bad about saying that because it’s an insult to roaches to compare them to bigots).

 

Nobody did but probably because he was the only one, he was not a main character and he was played by the cool Billy Dee Williams. It is giving a Black actor a lead role that racists take issue with.

On the article overall:

About the ST, the two problems were a lack of a coherent plan in the first place, one director who likes mystery boxes and thinks he does not need a plan, and another director who thought it was OK to make fun of the more “mainstream” fandom and tell us we “needed” a more Haute Intellectuelle artsy approach. And yes, as the article said, making parts of TROS a response to fan backlash. Racist opinions should always be ignored if not outright rejected.

And LMAO at the idea that racists are trying to claim they had no problem with John Boyega in a move to justify how they are treating Ingram. John Boyega made video of himself kicking around the numerous abusive messages he received from racists—and then got backlash for that , because apparently he is supposed to STFU and take it.

I think Book of Boba Fett suffered from a similar issue that Solo did—hard core fans of the character were only going to be happy with the original.

I disagree with the idea that going into a Star Wars product with a “checklist” guarantees you will hate it. It depends on how specific and lengthy the “checklist” is. In a franchise as old as this one, people are going to have expectations for established characters and how new ones interact with them and the universe.

Being nasty to the actors and creatives working on the content is never, ever acceptable though, and those who do that say more about how terrible they are than how bad the content is.

 

Check the diversity thread in the TV forum for a full accounting of what Ingram went through.

And not all people who dislike a Disney work are racist. All people who discuss the nonwhite actors or characters in a manner different from the way they discuss white actors or characters, and all people who attack the actors in a racist manner, are racist.

 

As someone who dislikes the ST, I did not think I was being lumped in with racists in that article. A good parameter for what could be considered a legitimate criticism would be—would I make this same criticism of a white male character? Do I expect female or minority characters to conform to traditional stereotypes? If the answer is a genuine “yes” to the first and “no” to the second, the criticism is legitimate.

I agree about ignoring racists but the onus for that is on Disney to not take their desires into consideration at all, treat them as if they are not part of the fandom—or do what Ewan McGregor did and tell them to GTFO of the fandom. For us I would say the onus is to stand up for the actors and don’t feed the trolls—find that balance.

 

I think one of the important take aways from this article on top of extent of Star Wars fan-embedded racism and sexism , is the author's argument that the fan base as a whole is tremendously entitled, i.e., when the ST did not deliver the story and character treatment most had hoped for, much of the fan base threw a collective temper tantrum.

 

So I'm going to be a bit of a fly in the ointment here and say that I don't think this article is a well-constructed one at all. It starts off on the wrong foot for me with the title, which portrays Star Wars fans as a monolith who all should somehow be expected to want the same thing. That's a ludicrous premise. At a rough estimate, I would guess there are millions of Star Wars fans around the world. Each of those fans is a unique individual with an aesthetic taste that exists independently of the aesthetic tastes of every other Star Wars fan on the planet. I bet no two people like Star Wars for the exact same reasons, and quite frankly it is clear that there is a huge range of opinion and taste among Star Wars fans (who aren't really a single entity so much as they are millions of different people with their own unique tastes).

For instance, some fans love the PT; others hate the PT with the fury of a thousand suns. Some love the ST; others wish the ST had never existed. Some thought Rogue One was awesome; others weren't so keen on it. Some thought Solo was cool; others didn't. Some are enjoying every episode of the Kenobi show; others aren't. And you could pretty much say the same thing about every piece of Star Wars property from the Ewoks to Jar Jar Binks to C-3PO to the Clone Wars show to the EU to the New Canon. Among millions of different people, there is bound to be no singular consensus on whether fans liked a particular entry in the Star Wars universe. Acclaim will never be universal, but at the same time, even when there seems to be a massive backlash, it is often a vocal minority grabbing the social media equivalent of a microphone and shouting into it.

Which is why I would say it's always a bit of a fool's errand to chase what you think fans want, because what fans want is a moving target that is going to change based on the individual tastes of each fan. Each individual fan knows what he/she wants and likes; however, among Star Wars fans, there is not one single taste in terms of what fans like or want.

It is like when a family goes out to eat at a restaurant. Maybe Sally wants cheddar on her cheeseburger, but Tom wants Swiss instead, Dad might want his steak rare, John may want his steak medium-rare, and Mom who is a vegetarian might just want a salad. It would be a very obtuse server indeed who would go back to the kitchen ranting about how Table 12 doesn't know what they want. Complaining about how, "Does Table 12 want cheeseburgers, steaks, or salads? And if they want cheeseburgers, do they want cheeseburgers with cheddar or Swiss? And if it is steaks, do they want the cook to be rare or medium-rare? Or is it salads they want? Are they all vegetarians?" No, the server is expected to have the intellectual acuity to understand that Table 12 is made up of different diners who all have different tastes, and, therefore, placed different orders off the menu. Table 12 has only 5 people sitting at it, but somehow we understand that each of those people have their own taste buds. So, why would we assume that millions of Star Wars fans have the same taste buds? That would be silly surely.

I would agree with the article in that the ST started with an identity crisis from the start, but I would say that is on Disney, not the fans. It's Disney's job to determine what the ST should be, not the fans. Disney is the one producing the product. Fans are just the ones consuming it. It is up to the producers to define the identity of the product.

I would say that artistically it is almost always a mistake to try to make up for perceived sins of a predecessor rather than to focus on creating something meaningful and compelling in its own right. Make apology posts on Twitter or whatever, but don't construct an entire film as some sort of clumsy apology for something that only angered a fraction of the fandom anyway.

I disagree with the article when it portrays it as always a certain potion of the fandom that complains. Some people like myself have issues with the ST but enjoy the Mandalorian, Solo, Rogue One, and Kenobi. Where does someone like myself fit in this narrative? Likewise, some people like myself loved the PT and never wanted any sort of apology for those films? Again, where do I fit within this article's narrative? It's not as if Star Wars fans can be easily divided into complainers and non-complainers. We all have our own tastes about what we like in Star Wars.

The Force Awakens was labeled a New Hope clone because that was what it was. If the shoe fits, Disney has to wear it. Fans like myself weren't to blame for calling a spade a spade.

The Last Jedi wasn't really a huge departure from the OT. It rehashed a lot of the same plot points as Empire Strikes Back and Return of the Jedi. It just recycled those plot and character beats in a less coherent and moving manner. Some fans were insulted by the Last Jedi; others weren't. To me, the Last Jedi wasn't an insult to me personally, but it did make character and narrative decisions that I thought were poor and inconsistent with previous Star Wars films.

I should also point out here that many people who liked TFA didn't like TLJ, and vice versa that many people who enjoyed TLJ weren't fans of TFA, so this just reinforces that there is not one consistent set of complainers within the Star Wars fandom.

Rise of Skywalker to me was flawed but was still the best film of the ST. Which is likely a controversial opinion. But one that emphasizes just how diverse and wide-ranging opinions on the ST and Star Wars in general are among us millions of Star Wars fans.

The crowd never wants any one thing. The crowd is made up of millions of individuals in this case who all have their own tastes and wants. I would disagree with the article that the crowd knows what it doesn't want. The crowd doesn't dislike any one thing. Some in the crowd dislike the PT; others love it. Some hate the ST; others are huge fans. Some love Kenobi; others think it is terrible.

The Star Wars fandom had some abusive elements in it dating at minimum back to the days of the PT. When child actor (at the time) Jake Lloyd was ruthlessly harassed for his depiction of a young Anakin Skywalker. Ahmed Best was targeted for his role in bringing Jar Jar Binks to life on the big screen in TPM. Hayden Christensen also got to experience how abusive a subset of angry Star Wars fans can be. Much of this behavior was egged on, aided and abetted by the media at the time. I'm glad that the media is finally waking up to the problem, but let's not pretend it is a new problem. It was a problem dating back at minimum to 1999. Over 22 years. If the media and fans had called this behavior out as unacceptable back when it was being experienced by actors in the PT (instead of the media encouraging it), then perhaps people like Kelly Marie Tran could have been spared some racist insults and backlash. It's always been wrong for fans to be abusive and racist. I'm glad that the media is finally waking up to that fact. But they are waking up to that fact several hours late and should probably admit they are running late, not pretend it is some new phenomenon.

Disney shouldn't have caved into the racists and reduced Kelly Marie Tran's role in Rise of Skywalker. Caving into racists is always wrong.

I liked the Leia scenes in Rise of Skywalker. They were some of the best in the film for me. And I didn't think that including Leia more prominently in Rey's story meant Rose had to be marginalized. Rose could have been given a decent amount of screen time, and Leia could also have some development in her relationship as Rey's mentor. The article's author seems to be assuming their individual tastes/opinions about Star Wars ("bad CGI", etc) are universal to Star Wars fans. Star Wars fans didn't universally think the Leia scenes had "bad CGI." Some Star Wars fans like myself enjoyed those scenes. But I guess we are chopped liver and don't count? Especially if we dared to think that TFA was an ANH clone? That is blasphemy and abuse, but saying that TROS had bad CGI is honky-dory, I suppose. What seems to be unacceptable and abusive is just a matter of saying things the author disagrees with apparently. So, that's cool.

Many people expected Rey to be related to a main character or to have an identity that was actually important since TFA set up who she was as a giant mystery. Kind of like if you write a murder mystery it is disappointing if you attempt to conclude it by saying no murder ever took place. The main topic of online speculation and debate among Star Wars fans after TFA was who Rey was. I doubt that would've been the case if TFA hadn't set it up as the big mystery box, but keep hating on the fans for choices Disney deliberately made, I guess. It's not as if Disney should take responsibility for its own product and marketing. No, it's totally the fans fault for caring about a thing TFA asked them to care about. Yeah, this article is annoying.

I never wanted Palpatine to return. I critiqued the ST for having a dollar store knockoff version of Palpatine, though. But that becomes even more terrible considering the dollar store knockoff version of Palpatine was killed off to soon in TLJ, so Disney had to scramble to bring Palpatine back from the dead without explanation. Fans aren't to blame for Rian jumping the gun on killing the dollar store knockoff brand version of Palpatine too soon. That is on Rian and Disney for allowing him to do that. Fans didn't write the script for the ST as far as I know. I certainly didn't. Or if so Disney has forgotten to pay me for my part in the project. I only remember paying to see the ST in theaters. Not writing the ST myself. Strange how my mind works.

There were Force Ghosts in TLJ, not just TROS, so it's not like TROS caved into fans demands by including Force Ghost stuff when TLJ had Yoda appear to lecture Luke.

Writing based on Reddit nitpicks would indeed be a bad idea. People at Disney are paid big bucks to know that and write good things, not things written based on some sort of twisted idea of what some fans on Reddit might like, when Reddit isn't even representative of the entire Star Wars fanbase. If someone is foolish enough to try to cater to every Reddit nitpick or criticism, they are on a fool's errand and kind of deserve to be laughed at for embarking on such a fool's errand in the first place. Kind of like how Obi-Wan points out, "Who is the more foolish? The fool or the fool who follows him?" Disney is the fool who follows him based on this article's description of Disney bowing to random Reddit post wishes.

I've never defended Star Wars fans who use racist slurs. I do object to casually being lumped into broad categories with fans who spew racist things just because I had the audacity to criticize TFA and TLJ. I personally have no problem with actors or others defending themselves against racists and racist slurs. In fact, I encourage them to do so if they feel comfortable to do so. I only regret that it is necessary for them to do so at all.

Some people will criticize Star Wars for being "too woke." Others, like me, think the increased diversity is one of the best aspects of Disney Star Wars and hope to see it continue to grow in diversity.

It's a shame that Moses Ingram received hundreds of racist messages. It would be a shame if she received even one racist message, because that one would be too many. I appreciate that an actor like Ewan McGregor used his platform to support Ingram and call out unacceptable, racist behavior. Kudos also to the other actors and people involved in Star Wars who did the same. Racist messages are never okay. Whether or not one is a Star Wars fan. Whether or not one likes a particular Star Wars product. Any negative comments focusing or referencing either Reva's or Ingram's race are definitely racist by definition and indefensible for that reason.

If I recall correctly, John Boyega has mentioned that he also received racist backlash and messages from Star Wars fans for his role in the ST. So, I would say that while Boyega and his character (Finn) were embraced by some Star Wars fans, there were also some racist Star Wars fans who felt the need to attack him and his character solely on the basis of his color. I certainly hope that Samuel L. Jackson, Billy Dee Williams, and Donald Glover didn't experience racist backlash for being in Star Wars (I always hope as many people as possible don't have to suffer from blatant racism), but if they did not, that does not discount the experiences that Ingram and Boyega had in terms of receiving racist backlash from Star Wars fans. the experience of one Black actor should not be used to discredit and discount the experiences of another Black actor.

I agree that Mace Windu only plays a minor role in the PT, and the PT's three main characters (Anakin, Obi-Wan, and Padme) were all white. Same as Lando was only a minor character in the OT, and the three main characters were again all white (Luke, Han, and Leia). The PT and the OT did not have much diversity in terms of non-white actors and in terms of including a range of female characters. Disney has indeed improved Star Wars by increasing the diversity of the Star Wars universe.

Anakin was critiqued for being the "Chosen One" and having a super high midichlorian count in TPM. His actor, Jake Lloyd, also got plenty of backlash. So, again, this article is wrong to act like PT actors never experienced abuse. It only seems to want to acknowledge the abuse that certain characters and actors received, and that isn't fair. The abuse Ingram received is unacceptable. So is the abuse Jake Lloyd received. Let's not sweep the abuse Jake Lloyd (a literal child at the time) under the carpet and pretend it never happened. That's not fair to Jake Lloyd. Racism is a problem with some Star Wars fans. So is overall abuse directed at actors who have appeared in the PT, the ST, or the Star Wars tv series. It's not a new problem or a quickly developing one. It's one that has been around for awhile and allowed to fester that the media just now is finally noticing and acting like it is some new trend. When it is not and Star Wars actors have been victimized by some fans dating back as far as 1999 at a minimum.

Oh, and now the article suddenly seems to remember that PT actors did indeed experience abuse. So this article is just really confused and poorly written. Neat. Maybe it could have been edited before posting.

Again, article persists in treating Star Wars fans like a monolith. "We" didn't suddenly decide that the PT is good. Some of us liked the PT and thought it was good from the time the PT started to come out in 1999, but that wouldn't fit the arcticle's narrative, would it? Some people also still dislike the PT. And people are allowed to have their opinions on the PT or any other form of entertainment change. That is not a crime. Again, there is never going to be a universal fan view or desire, so trying to cater to one taste or desire as if fans are a monolith is always going to be a mistake. It's not so much about the winds of change blowing (though they blow everywhere always so no point in criticizing fans for being fickle) as it is about people being individuals and not one collective hive mind mob.

A dark tone or a light tone is fine for Star Wars. Either can work. Mandalorian, Rogue One, and Solo all had dark tones and received different levels of approval from various fans according to their taste.

Most people criticizing Kenobi aren't critiquing Ewan's performance. Same as most people who criticized the PT rarely called out Ewan's performance as an actor. If Ewan hadn't gotten that level of love by fans (even those who dislike the PT), it is unlikely that Disney decides to make a whole series about Obi-Wan. I like Reva as a character and wouldn't mind seeing more content focusing on her, but I also think it is a bit disingenuous to compare her to Obi-Wan. Obi-Wan has been part of the Star Wars universe since the 1970's, so as a character, he has been able to build a fanbase for decades and generations at this point. By contrast, Reva is a new character who has not had time to build up that sort of fanbase. Disney seems to be aware of that. Hence why the show was called "Kenobi." Not "Reva." Reva is a cool character. Now that I know who she is, I'd be willing to read books about her time as an Inquisitor, etc. However, being real, I tuned into Kenobi because it was about Obi-Wan. My all-time favorite Star Wars character. Doesn't mean I couldn't enjoy Reva or appreciate what was done with young Leia or Bail Organa. Just that Obi-Wan was the main reason and appeal for me to tune in initially. Obi-Wan was the selling point.

I wouldn't say that Star Wars fans as a whole want a male lead. Maybe some sexist ones (who shouldn't be catered to) only want male leads. But Rogue One was overall very well-received and had a female lead. Speaking for myself, as well, I would say that my problem with the ST wasn't that it had a female lead. In fact, I liked that it had a female lead, and that female lead was a Jedi. I do remember being disappointed at times when the female Jedi lead took a back seat to Luke Skywalker in the climax of TLJ, though. Having a female lead is great, but fans are allowed to critique the execution of that female lead, and doing so is not automatically sexist.

I think hyper-focusing on two second clips is just part of Internet and modern culture as a whole. It occurs in a lot of fandoms. Not just Star Wars. It's part of a broader trend not unique to Star Wars.

I always think it is sort of a compliment when fans nitpick. It shows how invested in the fandom they are and how knowledgeable they are about it. It's really passion that tends to drive fans to nitpick. Same as why football fans will Monday morning quarterback about their favorite team. It's just part of the nature of being a fan, but an NFL coach or GM would probably be a fool to make major franchise decisions based off random Reddit posts.

Personally, I don't see anyone at Disney as boogeymen (or women) bent on destroying my childhood. I also don't abuse anyone associated with Star Wars, though I reserve the right to criticize any Star Wars product, same as I reserve the right to criticize any film, TV series, or book that I watch or read. Star Wars is not immune to criticism from me or anyone else just because it carries the Star Wars label. Criticism should not be conflated with abuse. Abuse is always wrong. Criticism is fine and can spark interesting discussion and debate. The two are not the same at all.

I know nobody is forcing me to like new Star Wars content. That is why I've liked some new Star Wars content and disliked other new Star Wars content. Almost like I have my own mind and taste.

I do not see the need to have a look at myself just because other Star Wars fans are acting abusive toward Star Wars actors (as some fans have been doing since at least 1999). I am not responsible for the behavior of other Star Wars fans. If anything, the media is much more responsible for this mess than I am. Given that the media was totally fine hating on actors like Jake Lloyd, Ahmed Best, and Hayden Christensen. And I was never cool with that. And the media always had a much larger platform than I do.

What I want from Star Wars is things I like and that suit my taste. Same as I want food to taste good when I order at a restaurant. It's not my job provide Star Wars with a vision and direction, however. That is the job of those who are paid the big bucks over at Disney. And if they do their jobs well they may even end up selling me things I didn't even know that I wanted. Like when they created Baby Yoda. I never knew I wanted Baby Yoda but turns out I did and will happily buy Baby Yoda merchandise.

Bottom line for me is really that fans are allowed to have different opinions about what they want and they are allowed to have their own tastes. They are also allowed to criticize without that automatically being considered abuse. It should also be expected, in my view, that fans may be irrational (fan is short for fanatic, after all) and passionate and prone to nitpicking. Abuse should not be tolerated, however. Nor should racism or sexism. And it is Disney's job to not cave into that abuse, racism, or sexism, and to try to support their actors as best they can when they are experiencing racist or sexist backlash or other forms of abuse from fans. Fans themselves are responsible only for their individual reactions and should not be called to account for the actions of other Star Wars fans. Especially if the only commonality between those fans is that they both happen to identify as Star Wars fans and both might have once said something critical about Star Wars (the horror).

The article makes some good points but unfortunately for me those get lost in the sweeping generalizations and tendency to paint anyone who has ever been critical of Star Wars with a broad brush and to treat Star Wars fans as a monolith rather than as individuals. The author, like Disney, could stand to remember that there are millions of Star Wars fans sitting at Table 12 and that we all have our own taste buds and don't want to order the same meal.

 

I think you have to break up Star Wars Fandom into two eras. Pre and Post PT.

 

Its not just the means of communication and interaction that changed, it was generational perspectives that shifted.