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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

Books Thrawn: Treason by Timothy Zahn Summer 2019

Discussion in 'Literature' started by Force Smuggler, Dec 5, 2018.

  1. Daneira

    Daneira Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 30, 2016
    You mean The Gungan Frontier?
     
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  2. fett 4

    fett 4 Chosen One star 5

    Registered:
    Jan 2, 2000
    I'm glad I waited for the Libary book for this. It was meh. While the scene of Thrawn being able to predict Savit every move simply by listening to his Spotify playlist is laugh out loud in ridiculousness
     
  3. SyndicThrass

    SyndicThrass Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 25, 2016
    If you’re going to balk at a super genius whose whole shtick is his ability to weaponise his analytical skills to fantastical degrees...then why on earth are you reading a Thrawn novel?
     
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  4. Thrawn McEwok

    Thrawn McEwok Co-Author: Essential Guide to Warfare star 6 VIP

    Registered:
    May 9, 2000
    Took longer than I wanted to get hold of this, because I decided to try to get hold of a copy in a real bookshop, and that wasn't as easy as I expected - they seemed to be sold out the first couple of times that I called in, and the check-out queues were too long to really ask someone to look up the stock list...

    What follows is less of a review than a completely random set of thoughts that may make no sense to anyone except myself...

    I have a bad habit of comparing the reboot Thrawn books to Michael Chabon novels - the original novel in the series seemed like a riff on The Final Solution, in which Sherlock Holmes is brought out of retirement to team with a young maths genius, and the unlikely tag-team of Thrawn and Vader in Alliances is evocative of Gentlemen of the Road, in which case this one is Wonder Boys, in which various smart-alec characters who have acquired tremendous reputations on their way up to positions of authority work out their rivalries while trying to mentor a younger generation, and end up being provided with solutions that they don't expect. All of which probably proves only my ability to overread things ridiculously (but leads to some entertaining fancasting on the way).

    This is an interesting book that seems deliberately arranged in contrasting fragments - the novel is simultaneously tied in with REBELS and Rogue One, which are very different in their rhythms and aesthetics; similarly, there's a counterpoint between the choreographed fight against Savit, which works precisely because the action is just on the edge of plausibility, and the much tougher and more brutal match of Steadfast against the Grysk.

    The Grysk are more of a threat here - as a direct antagonist in Alliances they seemed a little like every other generic alien adversary in the Unknown Regions, but the implication that they're alarmingly good at planning, indifferent to borders, and may have mind-control powers or at least impressive powers of psychology, was enough to make them feel more individual in this one. The fact we saw so much less of them characterised them better, too. Are the Grysk warriors really in charge of the Grysk Hegemony, either? Little details like the way that they don't commit their top-end fighters to a scouting mission were nice touches, too. They're layered, puzzling, threatening - especially to someone like Thrawn - because they're hard to analyse or see. Thrawn's own vulnerabilities are implied there.

    As people have remarked, the timeline of this book relative to REBELS is not entirely clear - possibly Thrawn's comm call to Governor Pryce in s4e11 was tucked in somewhere off-screen earlier in the novel, but if not, that seems to imply that Pryce's torture-session with the captive Hera Syndulla, which in the cartoon seems to be compressed into a single evening, runs through the entire length of the novel, which is a sobering note that emphasises the sustained undercurrent of the Empire's wrongness (though there's a twist there, insofar as within the Wonder Boys analogy, she's also the obvious counterpoint for Oola - no, not the one in Jedi, though obviously, the whole green Twi'lek thing is why she's the counterpart to that Oola here - a very minor character who accidentally saves the protagonist and fixes the whole situation by destroying the pet project that he's become target-fixated with, in this case the TIE Defender).

    Commodore Faro. Seeing the way she responds to taking herself out of her comfort zone on the quarterdeck and into an actual stormtrooper mission was a very nice touch. The Hornblowerish combination of competence and self-doubt, which are precisely the motor of the thoroughness that make her a good officer, were nicely told. And a deserved promotion. Does this mean that she was transferred off and replaced by Pellaeon in the time before the attack of the purgills?

    Pellaeon is cautious and doesn't risk his ship unnecessarily. Has Zahn met Jello?

    Ronan is a very fun addition to the team. Clearly smarter and more versatile than he seems. And possibly the most sympathetic superlaser wonk since Bevel Lemelisk. The interesting thing about him is that we only really see his POV when he's in full-on Cosplay Krennic mode, and we don't see the psychology that lets him do interesting things like shift his whole body language and suddently act the role of an imposter, and use his cape as an unconventional holdout weapon in a leitmotiv reference to Shada Du'kal's hairpins. Do we really know who this guy is? Do we really know everything that Thrawn and Ar'alani conceal in their body-language?

    Deyja is being awesome. I half-guessed that "Mole" was, well, a mole, but the twist of pulling out a character we know already from a previous story was a fun trick here which added to the effect. Zahn has some characters - Pellaeon, and Nicole in his Sibyl's War books being other examples who come immediately to mind - whose distinctive "voice" is very tangible for me in their POVs on the page (others perhaps I miss because I don't have an American accent), and Deyja manages that here - even more impressively because I'm not sure he even has any scenes from his POV in this one, and everything is carried in his actions and his dialogue.

    Savit is even more fun - a genuinely sympathetic character in his way, but also a bit of an entitled nerf, to put things mildly. We're never quite sure whether he's overpromoted, whether his choreography normally works because he's taking a left-field approach that other people don't "get", or if he's actually quite good.

    (also, that name is a great Zahny pun - Savit is full of himself. :p )

    And Sinre? Clearly HttE!Rukh is a clone. ;)

    - The Imperial Ewok
     
  5. fett 4

    fett 4 Chosen One star 5

    Registered:
    Jan 2, 2000
    But even at his super genius best he couldn't predict every action a person did. That seems a bit OTT even for Thrawn.
    I also notice that Zahn still never shows inside Thrawns mind. Hell we get more with the Emperor in that finale scene than with Thrawn. We never get his motivations or his wants and fears, nothing
     
  6. PCCViking

    PCCViking Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Jun 12, 2014
    Yeah, even Luke and company were able to fool Thrawn occasionally in the Thrawn Trilogy. In fact, in Dark Force Rising, Thrawn expected Han to go one place; instead, Han went another.
     
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  7. Ackbar's Fishsticks

    Ackbar's Fishsticks Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 25, 2013
    There's something to be said for picking an evening (or even a weekend afternoon) when you have nothing else to do, finding a Barnes & Noble, and then just sitting there and reading the entire book.

    Some people think that's unethical, but eh, I'm still giving them money in buying the snacks and drinks that I consume while reading...
     
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  8. SyndicThrass

    SyndicThrass Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Sep 25, 2016
    But the difference there is that Thrawn was up against protagonists. The protagonists of the films no less, they literally had the plot and the Force on their side. It’s a far cry from a one and done villain, whose purpose in this book was to serve as fodder to further the relationship between Thrawn and Faro.

    And you say that like it’s a flaw, when it’s clearly a narrative choice to keep Thrawn an mystery. Once again, that’s kind of the shtick of the character. He’s already developed as a person, it’s a flat character arc where it’s less about him and more about how he effects others. In this case, Faro, Vanto, Ronan, etc.
     
    Last edited: Sep 26, 2019
  9. Force Smuggler

    Force Smuggler Force Ghost star 7

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2012
    I liked this book a lot. Far better than Alliances. Not sure how it compares to Thrawn for me.
     
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  10. GrandAdmiralJello

    GrandAdmiralJello Comms Admin ❉ Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque star 10 Staff Member Administrator

    Registered:
    Nov 28, 2000
    It's a little silly to say "if you accept X premise, you accept every possible extreme."

    That whole music thing was absurd. I've said before -- I like Thrawn, but not when he's a living cheat code. That doesn't make him very interesting.
     
  11. SyndicThrass

    SyndicThrass Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 25, 2016
    Well Zahn went out of his way to justify how it works in the context of Thrawn’s usual “ability”, so I really don’t know how it’s meant to be extreme or absurd?

    I mean, he uses a species broader artwork to completely undermine the psychology of that whole race or culture. Here with Savit he literally used something one man directly created and crafted over many years as a means to undermine that same man. If anything to me that seems far more plausible and realistic than what he usually does.
     
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  12. GrandAdmiralJello

    GrandAdmiralJello Comms Admin ❉ Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque star 10 Staff Member Administrator

    Registered:
    Nov 28, 2000
    For the sake of this discussion, we're assuming that we think Thrawn's art deal is plausible. His art deal lets him draw certain conclusions about psychology and the way individuals of a certain species may respond to a given stimulus.

    His deal with Savit, though, was a point-by-point prediction, in advance of every single thing he would do. Step by step, move by move -- given to Faro in a script.

    That's a little much -- it's like an exaggerated version of Thrawn you might put on in a skit about him that pokes fun at the art thing.
     
  13. vncredleader

    vncredleader Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Mar 28, 2016
    I couldn't explain my thoughts on that point very well, until I saw Hbomberguy's video on Sherlock. Despite having loved the show, his argument really helped me put my finger why Thrawn bugs when when written like that.

    Its cause there is nothing satisfying about just watching a smart person tell you how smart they are, and then explain later all this info you have no access to. Book Sherlock gave you all the info you need, and would directly explain - not the answer - but rather how he knew the solution. Good genius characters teach you the means the solve similar problems, that way you feel smarter by the end, as opposed to just applauding the writer's OC who is given the script ahead of time.

    Thrawn certainly has these kinds of moments in both legends and canon, but I found myself taken out of quite a few moments in the new books that felt like this. I think as Thrawn has gotten more popular, he has become more and more easy for Zahn to just write "and he did it cause he knew this thing that you don't know about till now, or could not have been given the time to figure out reasonably"

    I have some misgivings about Rebels' Thrawn, but I think they did a good job avoiding this issue
     
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  14. Jid123Sheeve

    Jid123Sheeve Guest

    Honestly Thrawn is just more fun as a straight up antagonist, at least for me he is....He can be a part of the cast but when he becomes the focused I think that's when you run into problems, at least for me.
     
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  15. vncredleader

    vncredleader Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Mar 28, 2016
    I agree, I think when he is the focus, other characters and even the story itself feel like props to make Thrawn seem cool. In TTT his inner circle and characters who more or less just served him in terms of function - actually had a lot of life to them.
     
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  16. SyndicThrass

    SyndicThrass Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 25, 2016
    And I would say, there’s a context here where it makes sense. He’s narrowed his scope to entirely one individual psychology based on that particular individual’s specific art over the course of a lifetime.

    Don’t get me wrong, it’s fantastical ...but I can follow the logic there that his analysis would be infinitely more effective when utilised against one particular mind as opposed to an entire species worth where he has to make more generalisations.
     
  17. SyndicThrass

    SyndicThrass Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 25, 2016
    It’s partially why I hope he’s not in Zahn’s next book. If he had a touch more nuance and threat in Rebels that would have been the ideal use of the character.
     
  18. Jid123Sheeve

    Jid123Sheeve Guest

    Yeah.

    Plus i think it's more fun were even if Thrawn is this grand military strategist who seems to do no wrong and then get beaten by the OT 3 or Rebels or whoever because they outsmarted him or he underestimated him...or heck even because despite his grand military mind he can't comprehend the grander mysterious of the force which he didn't account for.

    It's why NuCanon Rebels Thrawn (Despite some of the writing flaws) fascinates me ...Because (Especially in a Filoni show) you have Thrawn who is kinda a weird way...a Non Star Wars character in Star Wars (A loose concept I know but follow me here) whose all about military tactics and strategy an coming up with plans, very pure classic Sci-Fi military heavy stuff...who at the end of the day got defeated because he messed with the Force and screwed with nature at the end of the day...He's gonna have to deal with that grander then life stuff, and I wanna see how he would deal with it moving forward.

    It's like when Saruman got beat at the end of the day because he chopped down the trees.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 26, 2019
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  19. fett 4

    fett 4 Chosen One star 5

    Registered:
    Jan 2, 2000
    You articulated the issues I had with it far better than me thank you.
     
  20. Wrinty

    Wrinty Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Apr 8, 2007
    He didn't just use art to predict what Savit would do though, he also used his past combat record.
     
  21. FS26

    FS26 Jedi Knight star 2

    Registered:
    Jul 8, 2018
    I actually think that Thrawn predicting Savit's actions based on Savit's personal record as a commander and artist makes more sense than some of Thrawn's deductions which were based purely on general cultural artifacts rather than the subject's personal items.
     
  22. fett 4

    fett 4 Chosen One star 5

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    Jan 2, 2000
    Why not do what I did and get it from the libary ?
     
  23. Ackbar's Fishsticks

    Ackbar's Fishsticks Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Aug 25, 2013
    Well, you were commenting on the length and difficulty of getting your hands on it that way, is all.
     
  24. GrandAdmiralJello

    GrandAdmiralJello Comms Admin ❉ Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque star 10 Staff Member Administrator

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    Nov 28, 2000
    I think that says more about Thrawn’s schtick in general than it does about the Savit stuff. The art stuff is basically grandfathered in at this point, we’re stuck with it.

    Believability is inherently subjective anyway — there’s no convincing someone that something is more or less believable.

    To me, it was the worst Thrawn moment yet -- he was at his most Thrawny in a bad way. To others, it might make perfect sense.
     
    Last edited: Sep 27, 2019
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  25. Thrawn McEwok

    Thrawn McEwok Co-Author: Essential Guide to Warfare star 6 VIP

    Registered:
    May 9, 2000
    Let's break this down a little.

    Balanhai Savit is an orchestral composer, whose compositions tend to follow a pattern, bringing in one piece after another, often in a particular order. Reminds me a lot of this, for which I think we may now have an in-universe composer...



    But Admiral Savit is also a commander with certain tools at his disposal - turbolasers, ion cannons, TIEs. And he's in a situation where he doesn't want to push too hard at first, because he's trying to blame everything on Thrawn, and would rather not destroy another Imperial capital ship.

    The idea that he will start with the left and hold back from committing his centre may be a persistent and basic pattern of the way he fights his battles, much as Arsenal always used to play the offside trap.

    Add that all together, and the rhythm of the battle becomes reasonably predictable - ion-cannons from the left, then the right, then TIEs, then taking the responsibility of the actual turbolaser engagement on his own flagship. The link between his fighting style and his music is just an extra, providing corroboration of his patterns and a way for Thrawn to grandstand.

    Half of what Thrawn's doing here is showmanship, playing to his own cliché (whether that's the Marg Sabl or the cold-reading), countering each move with an increasingly baroque and unconventional response (an A-wing slash in which his own TLs vape the torps to create a debris field?), and placing himself on the bridge of his opponent's flagship precisely so he can game his opponent, dictating the rhythm of the encounter with the dialogue, and manipulating his psychological responses something rotten...

    And all this conceals what Savit's real gift is - his ability for orchestration, for moving different elements around each other, which is what we see him doing in the heist, in the anti-piracy campaign, and which is actually why he was a good commander...

    - The Imperial Ewok