TPM is "winning" IMDB's Worst Star Wars Film survey. WHY?

No such thing as a worst Star Wars film. May I add I hate about 95% of the users on the IMDB. Nothing is more frustrating than talking to a moron who believes he/she is intelligent. I gave up on taking public opinion with any legitmacy a long time ago.

 

Trull quotes Mark Twain:

"Mark Twain once offered this sage advice to writers and storytellers: "Don't write, 'The old lady screamed.' Bring her out and let her scream." In other words: show, don't tell. A story is more compelling when it lets readers see for themselves what's happening, instead of just stating it."

Which makes sense when the hardship of slavery wasn't talked about in Episode One.

Darth_Mimic: "After all, one thing the movie did was destroy some people's preconceived notions. Everybody expected Anakin to be this punk kid, or at least to be a troubled child.

Not everyone.

Chaotic_Serenity:"Strange, I never had a problem imagining why life as a slave was a horrible thing. Outside of the stigma..."

You not the only one with this thought, especially in the light that the hardship really didn't come across the screen or really spoken of.

 

Strange, I never had a problem imagining why life as a slave was a horrible thing. Outside of the stigma, Anakin and Shmi hardly appear to be "living it up." They're home and clothing appears destitute, Anakin is immediately angry at the reminder that he's a slave, and, to be honest, the kid looks a bit undernourished for his age (a fact further supported by the AOTC book, which suggested during one of Shmi's thoughtful moments that she and Anakin had little food to survive on), and, really, the whole idea of having a slave device that'll explode if you try to escape is absolutely horrifying.

I agree. During the dinner scene, the food was not exactly plentiful, even taking into account that they had guests. Anakin gives Jar Jar a rather dirty look when he snags a fruit with his tongue; perhaps that was not just disgust with Jar Jar's antics but resentment because he was wasting their meager food supply.

Being a slave is not a nice thing, even if your master is, comparatively speaking, kind to you -- that is, if he doesn't beat you or make you sleep out in the rain (not that there was rain on Tatooine). Watto doesn't even call Anakin by his name, it's "Boy!" this and "Boy!" that.

It's interesting to note that Watto isn't evil, he's just short-sighted and greedy. But it catches up to him big time by AOTC.

Why isn't Anakin more downtrodden? He's a child. Children have long been renowned for their ability to manage having at least some happiness in poor living situations, mostly because their needs for happiness are alot simpler.

That's exactly it. But even Anakin had a touch of not exactly cynicism, but resignation to his fate: "I wouldn't have lasted this long if I wasn't so good at building things."

What's Anakin's big dream? To see the stars. Who is the one person who makes him life bright? His mother. I think as long as he had her, Anakin could have handled the slave thing.

And being separated from her, even though he was no longer a slave (though one could make a case for Jedi-hood being a type of slavery), was devastating.

Why should he feel so utterly depraved at being a slave? It's the only life he's ever known, and it's hardly his fault he is one. We do see feelings of unworthiness and general upset about his situation in his conversation with Padme, but...Anakin is a very headstrong child. I get the sense that as long as people recognize that he's an individual rather than a piece of property that he really couldn't give a care either way. (Well, at least on the outside. We can argue subconscious inferiority psychological complexes elsewhere.)

Well said.

Darth_Mimic: "After all, one thing the movie did was destroy some people's preconceived notions. Everybody expected Anakin to be this punk kid, or at least to be a troubled child.

I hate it when people claim to speak for everybody. That reminds me of some journalist saying, "We all wanted Episodes 1-3 to be about a young Han Solo, not a young Anakin Skywalker."

But anyway...just for the sake of argument, let's say that "everybody" did expect Anakin to be a punk or at least a troubled child. Big deal. I mean, Lucas was in no way obliged to follow that. He felt, and I happen to agree, that it made more sense for Anakin to be a nice kid to start with, to give him something to fall from.

It may have been more crowd-pleasing for Anakin to be snotty and surly to everybody and maybe be a petty thief or in trouble with the authorities. But Lucas chose instead to have more subtle hints of Anakin's dark future, like his pride (he brags about his piloting and his building skills to Padmé) and his various dirty looks toward characters (Jar Jar, like I mentioned above, Sebulba, Mace Windu). He even had Anakin show some "Vaderisms," like with Anakin pointing to Qui Gon at the dinner table.

 

STAR WARS - EPISODE ONE: THE PHANTOM MENACE:
Kenobi: "The boy is dangerous..."

Told not showed.

 

STAR WARS - EPISODE ONE: THE PHANTOM MENACE:
Kenobi: "The boy is dangerous..."

And you forgot the rest of the quote: "They all sense it, why can't you?"

They're sensing Anakin is dangerous, because of his fear, which, as Yoda points out, leads to anger; the anger leads to hate; the hate leads to suffering.

Told not showed

What should be shown? It's something they're sensing.

 

STAR WARS - EPISODE ONE: THE PHANTOM MENACE:
Kenobi: "The boy is dangerous..."

Told not showed.

Isn't that what the rest of the Episodes show us ?

 

Isn't that what the rest of the Episodes show us ?

Perhaps, but we're only dealing with the context of Episode One.

 

But Anakin's dangerousness doesn't manifest until the later episodes.

 

I couldn't find it: what were the other results?

Which episode was "second worst" and which was the "last worst"?

 

"But Anakin's dangerousness doesn't manifest until the later episodes."

I totally agree. We not shown Anakin is dangerous, only told.

 

Because his dangerousness doesn't manifest until the later episodes.

 

That's the thing though, we're left with only implications of the "danger" of the boy and the Dark Side. It would have been possible to see it through the cinematic use of a foil, someone to act off of Anakin showing the dangers of the Dark Side. Maul didn't do it. Sidious was in the shadows. There was no villain visible enough to act as an example of the dangers of the Dark Side like there was in the OT. Luke is told about the Dark Side, but we had Darth Vader act as a medium to show how dangerous it can be. We got to see the dangers of the Dark Side and how easy it is to fall for it, we see it in Luke's failure at the cave and the existance of Darth Vader acts as a constant reminder of what Luke can become if he is not careful. We see the dangers of the Dark Side and the consequences. We didn't have to "wait" for Return of the Jedi for the dangers of the Dark Side to "manifest" themselves in Luke. We got it when it was introduced, something that didn't happen in TPM.

 

Great points Loco.

 

It's not supposed to happen in TPM, we don't see Vader saving a puppy in ANH - just to already give us a glimpse that it's possible he still has something good in him.

Likewise there's no way ANH could tell you that Luke might become Vader, not even one word.

With Anakin, we're given clues and possibilities from the start in TPM - we're warned that he 'might' be dangerous, after TPM we think 'THAT kid?, the one that saved everyone TWICE? No Way' but we still wonder why the Jedi Council - who are at this point the 'strongest, smartest Jedi' had their doubts.

Clones shows us exactly what they were talking about, Anakins fear for his mother leads him to Tatooine, his anger for her death leads to him hatred for all (to the point that he feels he has to kill women and children) and the realization of that hatred leads to him suffering because of it.

We're told in TPM that there 'might' be something wrong with this kids future, the rest of the movies SHOW us this.

With Luke, we're told in THE SECOND EPISODE that he 'might' go down the wrong path and ONLY IN THE SECOND EPISODE is Vader identified as a person which Luke COULD become.

With Anakin we WONDER what might happen to him , with Luke we KNOW what might happen to him.

 

That's the thing though, we're left with only implications of the "danger" of the boy and the Dark Side.

Because that "danger" doesn't happen until the later episodes.

It would have been possible to see it through the cinematic use of a foil, someone to act off of Anakin showing the dangers of the Dark Side.

Like what?

Maul didn't do it. Sidious was in the shadows.

Sidious masterminded the whole movie.

There was no villain visible enough to act as an example of the dangers of the Dark Side like there was in the OT.

Gee, that Maul was hatred and anger incarnate wasn't enough? That Sidious was cold and ruthless enough to exterminate his own people wasn't enough?

Luke is told about the Dark Side, but we had Darth Vader act as a medium to show how dangerous it can be.

No, actually, that didn't happen until the later episodes. In IV, we're told, not shown.

We got to see the dangers of the Dark Side and how easy it is to fall for it,

Not until the later episodes.

we see it in Luke's failure at the cave

That's in ESB.

and the existance of Darth Vader acts as a constant reminder of what Luke can become if he is not careful. We see the dangers of the Dark Side and the consequences. We didn't have to "wait" for Return of the Jedi for the dangers of the Dark Side to "manifest" themselves in Luke. We got it when it was introduced,

No we didn't.

something that didn't happen in TPM

Yes it did. In Darth Maul and Darth Sidious.

 

Darth_Amedda

Here are the final results:

TPM 7535 votes (62.0%)
AOTC 3557 votes (29.3%)
ROTJ 502 votes (4.1%)
ANH 238 votes (2.8%)
TESB 213 votes (1.8%)

12,145 votes total

 

Considering how many people voted for Bush, this doesn't suprise me.

 

More senseless PT bashing...... .
Glad I didnt see them with those people

 

Great points Loco.

It's not supposed to happen in TPM, we don't see Vader saving a puppy in ANH - just to already give us a glimpse that it's possible he still has something good in him.

Mainly because ANH was not about Vader, nor was there any idea about him turning back from the Dark Side at that point.

Likewise there's no way ANH could tell you that Luke might become Vader, not even one word.

Also because the flirtations with darkness were not considered yet seeing as how the film was done as a stand-alone, but once the notion of Luke's possible turning was introduced in ESB, no time was wasted in showing the potential it had.

With Anakin, we're given clues and possibilities from the start in TPM - we're warned that he 'might' be dangerous, after TPM we think 'THAT kid?, the one that saved everyone TWICE? No Way' but we still wonder why the Jedi Council - who are at this point the 'strongest, smartest Jedi' had their doubts.

And was there anything beyond speculation? No, there wasn't. It was pointless speculation since Lucas didn't capitalize on it at the moment.

Clones shows us exactly what they were talking about, Anakins fear for his mother leads him to Tatooine, his anger for her death leads to him hatred for all (to the point that he feels he has to kill women and children) and the realization of that hatred leads to him suffering because of it.

We're told in TPM that there 'might' be something wrong with this kids future, the rest of the movies SHOW us this.

That's all fine and dandy, that only reaffirms the assertion that TPM was in itself empty as there was no payoff in-episode TO that speculation. It's a lot of talk, but nothing of substance. Like I said, we didn't get talk of the dangers of the Dark Side in ESB and wait til ROTJ to see what it might lead up to. We got it in that episode. That's the thing, what Yoda said was backed up with something more tangible. Leaving something that important for the next episode without even trying is just plain sloppiness.

With Luke, we're told in THE SECOND EPISODE that he 'might' go down the wrong path and ONLY IN THE SECOND EPISODE is Vader identified as a person which Luke COULD become.

You're pretty much making my point for me. We got it when we were told it. We weren't told Luke might fall in ANH and had to wait til ESB to see any of it.

But it wasn't all talk, we actually got to SEE something. We SAW the failure at the cave, the decapitated "Vader," Vader himself seen as a twisted human under the mask, everything about Vader and the threat of direct contact with Skywalker makes the difference. Dramatic weight is added to the mix, and that's what makes the story intriguing. Without the intriguing dramatic motions, you have, well, TPM.

With Anakin we WONDER what might happen to him , with Luke we KNOW what might happen to him.

Bingo, and that's exactly what's wrong with it.

It would have been possible to see it through the cinematic use of a foil, someone to act off of Anakin showing the dangers of the Dark Side.

Like what?

*sigh*

Luke is told about the Dark Side, but we had Darth Vader act as a medium to show how dangerous it can be. We got to see the dangers of the Dark Side and how easy it is to fall for it, we see it in Luke's failure at the cave and the existance of Darth Vader acts as a constant reminder of what Luke can become if he is not careful. We see the dangers of the Dark Side and the consequences.

Maul didn't do it. Sidious was in the shadows.

Sidious masterminded the whole movie.

Uh huh, like I said, he was in the shadows.

Gee, that Maul was hatred and anger incarnate wasn't enoug

 

Sidious is too distant from the dramatic action

Exactly what he planned

 

Obviously.

 

Mainly because ANH was not about Vader, nor was there any idea about him turning back from the Dark Side at that point.

Also because the flirtations with darkness were not considered yet seeing as how the film was done as a stand-alone, but once the notion of Luke's possible turning was introduced in ESB, no time was wasted in showing the potential it had.

But it's still an episode in a saga, if it's not there - it's as empty as you say TPM is. This has nothing to do with whether it was made first or as a standalone film - what you claim TPM lacks, ANH lacks.

What you claim ESB does - Clones does, you can't have it both ways.

nd was there anything beyond speculation? No, there wasn't. It was pointless speculation since Lucas didn't capitalize on it at the moment.

Clones, Sith, Hope, Empire and Jedi are there beyond speculation, TPM is the first setup in a saga - meaning just that, it sets everything up for the rest of the movies to show us.

It sets up that Anakin might be dangerous, but it's not going to show us everything - because that's what it's got the other 5 episodes for.

That's all fine and dandy, that only reaffirms the assertion that TPM was in itself empty as there was no payoff in-episode TO that speculation. It's a lot of talk, but nothing of substance. Like I said, we didn't get talk of the dangers of the Dark Side in ESB and wait til ROTJ to see what it might lead up to. We got it in that episode. That's the thing, what Yoda said was backed up with something more tangible. Leaving something that important for the next episode without even trying is just plain sloppiness.

So ANH was 'empty' too then?

Don't use the 'standalone/firstepisode' excuse, the fact is that it doesn't have what you want TPM to have so they're both 'empty' as stories to you, thats really unfortunate.

TPM 'atleast' brings in doubts and 'coulditbes?' that add a new dimension to the character/story, ANH then is even emptier because it basically leaves you with nothing at the end, right?

You're pretty much making my point for me. We got it when we were told it. We weren't told Luke might fall in ANH and had to wait til ESB to see any of it.

But it wasn't all talk, we actually got to SEE something. We SAW the failure at the cave, the decapitated "Vader," Vader himself seen as a twisted human under the mask, everything about Vader and the threat of direct contact with Skywalker makes the difference. Dramatic weight is added to the mix, and that's what makes the story intriguing. Without the intriguing dramatic motions, you have, well, TPM.

TPM isn't all talk, it's just not a movie that deals with Anakin & only Anakin, just like ANH is not a movie that deals with Vader & only Vader.

Why do you even think there's a "1" after "Episode" ??

Bingo, and that's exactly what's wrong with it.

Why?

 

Go-Mer-Tonic: "Considering how many people voted for Bush, this doesn't suprise me."

Just out of curiosity, what do you mean by this?

 

Not out of curiousity. The political comments stop here. They have no place in this forum.

Loco, Sensei, Shelley and GoMer: Please do not turn this into another basher/gusher thread. We GET your opinions on TPM. You spout them gratuitously at every possibility. Why continue to argue with people you KNOW are never going to even display a glimmer of changing their minds?

 

I am not a basher or gusher, I represent myself.

I was just saying that I am not suprised by this survey.