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PT TPM: Were people really dying on Naboo?

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by True Sith, Mar 13, 2016.

  1. DARTHLINK

    DARTHLINK Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Feb 24, 2005
    What would be the point of Nute attempting global genocide? Couldn't he have simply blasted a few dozen and make empty threats to get her to bow down to his wishes? He may be a greedy, immoral Nemodian, but he isn't stupid. Remember, he and Sidious wants to make the invasion legal, and if I remember correctly, all this was about tax laws. How would genocide help them achieve their goals?
     
  2. Samuel Vimes

    Samuel Vimes Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 4, 2012
    Which they could also achieve by putting a gun to Sio Bibble's head, threatening his family or friends and getting him to make a fake transmission where he lies about what is going on.
    Which is pretty much what they did!

    This would be simpler, quicker, cheaper, be better from a PR standpoint, make more logical sense, not have Nute suddenly and for no reason become a genocidal madman and not have the rest of the galaxy become idiots and not make the story of AotC and RotS worse.

    To sum up, NO! people were not dying en masse on Naboo. The transmission was a fake, they even say as much in the film. Nothing IN the film really suggest mass scale murders or planetary scale genocide and it would be out of character for Nute to behave this way and it makes no logical sense why he would do this and the lack of follow up if he had done this ruins the characters of the Jedi/Padme and quite a lot of other people.

    Bye.
    Old Stoneface
     
  3. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 28, 2001
    Bibble wouldn't budge if his life was in danger, as he is not a sniveling coward. But he would budge if others were in danger. And as to Nute, who says it was his idea? Darth Sidious is probably the one who told Nute to use whatever means necessary to achieve the objective. As to it being a fake, no, because Nute says that the people are starving and dying to Bibble. It isn't a fake out as Obi-wan isn't sure.

    QUI-GON: "It sounds like bait to establish a connection trace."

    OBI-WAN: "What if it is true and the people are dying?"

    QUI-GON: "Either way, we’re running out of time."

    The trick is to get her to reply, but that doesn't mean the message itself was false. There is no follow-up because Palpatine and Dooku covered it up and the Courts were too corrupt and self-interested to give a damn. Face it, the Republic needed to fall.
     
  4. mikeximus

    mikeximus Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 6, 2012
    Surely there was some amount of suffering and death associated with the occupation. However, what amount catastrophic means I think is relative.

    To Bibble, if he saw a thousand corpses piled up somewhere and deplorable conditions inside the camps, well than he might very well consider it catastrophic to see his people suffering that way. Especially when it's pretty obvious no one on Naboo has ever witnessed something like this before. So I think people assuming that Bibble is talking about genocide or millions dying in the street may be reading too much into it.

    We know for a fact there were camps, as Queen Amidala’s entourage was going to be processed in camp 4. However we also know that the majority of the population was in these camps. Panaka tells us this right before Padme explains her plan to take back Naboo.


    Panaka would obviously know this because it is clear he has already spoken with the leaders of the underground he has brought back to the secret meeting.

    So there are camps, and surely the people are suffering and some may even be dying as the Trade Federation probably would have denied access to food, water, medicine etc in order to try and force the Queen to sign the treaty once they had her in custody. Queen Amidala isn’t going to be persuaded to sign any treaty if her people are being treated well, are fed, and allowed to roam around Theed freely as if nothing was happening. Gunray pretty much makes this clear when they first capture the Queen and she refuses to sign the treaty which Gunray says will legitimize the occupation:



    So yes, I do believe people were dying on Naboo as a result of the occupation. It only makes sense that the Trade Federation would use the tactic in order to force the Queen to sign the treaty. I think people might be taking the word catastrophic a bit too relative to their own idea of what it might mean.

    For example, I would view what happened and the death toll on 9/11 as catastrophic. With 3,000 people dead though, it is nowhere near genocide levels or millions dead, but, I have not seen anything on that scale before, so in my eyes, I would place it in that category. So Sio Bibble using the term does not imply that millions are dying, just that the death toll is more than anything he has even seen before.

    As for the Jedi being skeptical about people dying, remember what is said at the beginning of the movie. All that the Trade Federation is doing doesn’t make sense to the Jedi because they see the Trade Federation as weak and cowards. Even though Qui Gonn senses that there is something else going n behind the scenes, he doesn’t know what it is, and to what extent (the Sith) that it goes.


    So the Jedi know that the transmission is an attempt to establish a trace, and they are skeptical that the Trade Federation would go so far as to kill people because it doesn’t make sense with what they know about the Trade Federation from past dealings.
     
  5. Samuel Vimes

    Samuel Vimes Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 4, 2012
    About these camps.

    Yes we hear about them and we hear that Padme was to be take to such a camp.
    But are we talking about camps for the entire population of Naboo?

    Wookieepedia gives the population of Naboo as 4,5 billion. Yes this never said anywhere in the films.
    Making camps for this many people and moving all these people there would be a MASSIVE operation. And certainly one that would take longer than a couple of days.
    Even if we assume a much smaller population, say 200 million people. Even that is a huge number to make camps for and to move.

    Instead these camps are likely for the leadership of Naboo. The government, the governors, security forces, local leaders and the like. So we are maybe talking about 10 000 people or around that figure.
    Those are the people that are starving and those are who Nute calls "Your people" when talking to Sio Bibble.
    This makes some sense, the TF arrest and detain the leadership of Naboo and the major cities. They also arrest the local security forces and the like. The regular people are left in their homes but probably under martial law and curfew and the like.
    Moving the entire population into camps is hugely impractical and makes no sense.
    Note; this is nasty enough on the TF's part and shows them as bad guys. There is no need to make them try genocide.

    Sidious even says to Nute that Padme is young and naive and she would not be difficult to control. So it is unlikely that he would suggest such extreme measures as to put the entire population into camps and starve them all.
    It is also not needed, it is enough to threaten those close to Padme, her servants, colleges and family members.
    Have them lined up in front of Padme and start to shoot them one at a time, after 10-20 of them dying, Padme would break, as would Sio Bibble. No need to threaten the entire population.
    Also, Padme escapes very early in the invasion. So if these camps are just to break her will, why bother once she has fled?

    Also, for what I recall, in the second part of the film, when she is returning to Naboo, I think Sidious simply tells the TF to kill her. Now the treaty is suddenly not important. And yes I know for Sidious this is the case as he got rid of Valorum but the TF still need it to make their invasion legal. And yet they don't mention it.
    And this makes it even stranger why the TF remove all but one of their ships. If they knew Padme was coming back, keep the blockade there and grab her as soon as she comes out of hyperspace.

    Bye for now.
    Old Stoneface
     
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  6. mikeximus

    mikeximus Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 6, 2012
    Once again, the movie shows us that the general population is being forced into camps, or exterminated outright... When Jar Jar comes back from the Gungan city and says they are all gone, Obi Wan asks if they were taken to the camps, but, Panaka suggests they were just killed outright. The only reason they would have to say these things, is if the Trade Federation was actually doing it.

    It took the Nazi's a couple months to move millions into Ghetto's which were essentially camps for the Jews that used already built infrastructure. The Nazi's did not have the luxury of portable force field generators that would be used as walls. There is every reason to believe that the populations of the cities were herded into small sections of the cities and than enclosed with force shields and guarded with the droid army that had the luxury of not fighting a war. Even if you wanted to believe that this is not the case and the populations were marched out to the middle of no where and herded together, all one has to do is look at a situation like Andersonville during the American Civil War, which was essentially a POW camp that just had walls built up around it and had very little in the way of housing for the prisoners. Most of the 45,000 prisoners that went through that camp ended up living outdoors.

    The bottom line is that there is no end to how expedient people can be when it comes to being cruel to others!

    When ever someone speaks to a head of state of "their people" it is clear that the idea is they are speaking of the people that they govern, and not the people that share the same political, or social position as them. That's stretching it...

    Practicality? The TF has an army that doesn't need food, water, housing, pay, sleep, etc etc etc. It's much more practical to make sure the population is subjugated and imprisoned in order to control the population from doing anything rebellious because your army doesn't need anything more or less to accomplish the task.


    She may be young and naive but that is not the equivalent of being stupid! Clearly the Trade Federation feels there is a need to have a bargaining chip in order to force her to sign the treaty. Furthermore, you are, in a way, sticking up for an organization that then goes on to be a part of a war that ravages planets, kills billions, and as we know from ROTS, they do so all in league with a Sith Lord for their own self interests... Why isn't it beyond belief that they would imprison as many people on Naboo as possible and starve them in order to accomplish their task of getting the Queen to sign a treaty... When it is clearly within their nature to do so.



    Because once they get the Queen back, the intention is to still get her to sign the treaty. You are assuming that she would break after watching executions. She may or may not, but, clearly the TF isn't going to play games. You are putting some kind of morality on them that they don't have. If they feel the need to starve the population to get what they want, they are going to do it. This suggestion in your argument that somehow they have some kind of moral compass that would hold them back from going overboard with atrocities is not supported by anything in the movies. We see that they are ruthless, murderous, and capable of killing billions! Starving people on Naboo to get what they want is nothing!

    No, Sidious never says to kill her! Sidious says to "wipe them out, all of them" in context to the army of primitives that the Viceroy had sent the droid army out to meet on the battlefield. So your point here is moot. Just to add though, even if Sidious never brings the treaty back up, it is clear that the Trade Federation still believes that the Treaty is needed. When Padme's group is captured and brought before the Viceroy, he says to her:

    So whether or not Sidious cared about the treaty, clearly everyone else thought it was in play and needed!
     
  7. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 28, 2001
    Cut from the film, but relevant, when Palpatine is receiving his update from Nute, he is told that the Droid Army now controls all of the northern cities and are now searching for other settlements. Given the size of the Droid Army, it is not unreasonable that the Federation could move everyone into camps within a matter of a couple of days. There are far more of them than members of the Nazi army when they were doing the same thing years ago. Not to mention that the droids don't tire and don't need rest. It would take far less time than it would for human soldiers, who need rest and food. It should also be noted that Palpatine tells Nute to start killing all high ranking officials, but slowly and quietly. If he would order that, then he would order the starvation of the people.

    In the final film, no. But in the script and I believe the novelization, he says that she is of no further use and orders her termination upon her return. Lucas had cut it, possibly because he realized that he needed Nute to still think it was important and/or because he realized he was contradicting himself and thus cut it.
     
  8. ConservativeJedi321

    ConservativeJedi321 Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Mar 19, 2016
    Most likely yes for all the reasons stated previously. Since this was an operation planned by the Sith, even through puppets, I would be surprised if they were not dying.
     
  9. TheDutchman

    TheDutchman Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 10, 2015
    Totally agree with Samuel Vimes on this one. There was no slaughter at all of the Naboo people. The line where Obi-Wan mentions that it is a trick is the clincher. Why even put that in there?
     
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  10. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 28, 2001
    Because the trick is getting her to respond, not that the people weren't dying. Nute says it himself to Bibble that his people are starving to death.
     
  11. Samuel Vimes

    Samuel Vimes Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 4, 2012
    But and this directed towards mikeximus as well.

    If the camps are JUST to get Padme to comply and sign the treaty.
    Then doing it to the entire planetary population is stupid overkill.
    Just have 1000 people put in front of Padme and kill them one at a time.
    For added horror, have a button in front of her. If she pushes the button, the person gets shot. If she doesn't push the button, the person is slowly incinerated instead.
    If she doesn't break from that, then she won't break for anything.

    If the goal is really to wipe out the entire population.
    Then there are several problems with that.
    First, why? What goal is served for the TF to wipe out the entire population?
    They risked a lot to conquer the planet and now that they have, they are just going to kill everyone. So they'll have an empty planet and 4,5 billion corpses. Not seeing any logic in that.

    Second, the TF and Nute are MERCHANTS, not Genocide Inc. Do they do this often?
    Invade planets and murder billions? If yes, how come the republic/Jedi doesn't seem to care?
    If they have never done this or anything like it, how did Sidious get them to go this far?
    Getting them to invade is one thing, and something that Nute was a bit hesitant over. When told to land his troops, Nute gets nervous and asks "Is that legal?" And he or the other guy express regret over making this deal. And yet they are not hesitant at all about doing planetary scale genocide?

    Third, did they expect this to stay a secret? The TF tried very hard to deny that an invasion had taken place and the treaty was needed to make their occupation legal. But if they murdered billions, did they seriously think that this would never become known?
    As I've said, the TF are merchants, it usually is not a good idea for merchants to have a reputation of genocidal mass-murderers.

    To sum up, in an invasion it makes sense to make use of the existing infrastructure and institutions.
    Remove the higher ups and any that could be a direct threat but keep the state service functioning.
    This creates less chaos and disorder and makes it less likely to cause a general uprising.
    This is by no means nice or pleasant but it makes some sort of sense. Locking up the entire population and trying to kill every last one is just senseless. It isn't really Evil, it is madness. It is killing people for no reason.

    Instead, the TF locked up the leadership of Naboo and those that could pose a military threat.
    They tried to get Sio Bibble and the other governors to co-operate and tell the population that all was in order and clam down. Be collaborators basically. But they refused and so they were starved in order to get them to co-operate. This, to me, makes more sense and works better in the story and for the characters. Having Nute be this bloodthirsty and Evil madman doesn't make the film better.

    Lastly, it is rather strange that despite all the TF's efforts to control Naboo and put people in camps. They leave the Naboo fighters fueled and armed right inside the palace. I guess they never thought that some Naboo pilot could get ahold of them and try and attack. Very convenient.

    Bye for now.
    Blackboard Monitor
     
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  12. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 28, 2001
    The camps were not because she fled, but to hold the populace until she signed the treaty. She was on her way to a camp when she was rescued. Because she fled, Palpatine ordered the high ranking officials to be eliminated and the populace to be starved. All that other stuff is excessive in a film series for all ages, but primarily for kids.

    The goal is to break Padme and make her return. The population would be given food, water and medical attention once the treaty was signed and recognized as legitimate in the Senate. But because she left, the people were made to suffer for her transgression.

    It is Palpatine who is forcing them to do this. He got them to do that because he's put the fear of him in them. Basically, "Do as I say or I'll make you suffer before I have you killed."

    They made a deal with the devil and now have to pay for it. As to everything else, given the nature of government in "Star Wars", it is very likely that they would believe that whatever wrangling Sidious could pull off, would be enough to keep them out of trouble. To legitimize every action.
     
  13. mikeximus

    mikeximus Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 6, 2012
    Overkill is what bad guys do in movies... They kill millions to make a point, they destroy planets, they build super lasers to blow up the moon, they set elaborate traps to kill the hero, they create huge death machines.. I am not sure what your issue is. I mean we can all sit here and with every single movie that was ever made with a bad guy, come up with an alternate way the bad guy goes about their business. Maybe Lex Luthor should have tricked superman into eating a kyrptonite laced twinkie instead of wrapping it around his neck and dumping him in the ocean. I just don't get your point of should of, could of here.

    It's clear that the Trade Federation is willing to resort to whatever means necessary to get what they want. They don't fear retaliation or being brought to justice because they believe they have a Sith Lord in their pocket that will protect them (which he does). Once again, your stance here suggests that the Trade Federation has some kind of moral compass where they would stop and rethink their position because it might be too much to kill thousands, or hundreds of thousands or millions. It's clear that no such moral compass exists, especially when they believe that they will be protected. You actually think they would consider not killing millions because it's overkill?

    It is not their goal to wipe out the population. The goal is to first and foremost control the population so to make sure there are no revolts, and then create a situation where it puts pressure on the Queen to return and sign the treaty, or worst case, get her to to reply to the transmission from Sio Bibble so they can pinpoint exactly where she is. But because she doesn't reply, they are only able to get a partial link which tells them the planet.

    So again, their goal is not to kill the entire population, but, they will kill as many necessary in order to get what they want... I think you're creating an issue here where no issue exists.


    It is clear that the Trade Federation has resorted to questionable tactics as per Queen Amidala's line that they had gone too far "this time". Have they invaded and killed thousands? Maybe, maybe not. Who's to say they haven't done it to outer rim planets that are not part of the Republic. What is clear is that they are not good people.

    "Greed can be a powerful ally"!

    The theme of greed being used against people is prevalent in TPM. Qui Gon uses greed to sweeten deals with Watto so that there is no way Watto could say no to the bets. It's clear that Sidious has tapped into the same thing with the Trade Federation.



    Once again, you're stance here suggests that the TF has some moral compass in which they would sit back and say that killing people is wrong, or genocide is wrong. Your own example here shows that the Trade Federation is not concerned with what is right or wrong, but, only what is legal from the standpoint that what would get them into trouble. Once Sidious says he will make it legal, it removes that argument. The Trade Federation is not worried about legality on the level of morality, but, legality on the level of whether it will come back on them. There is a huge difference between the two ways of thinking.

    Yes they did expect it to get covered-up, and it did... Hence Sio Bibbles line in AOTC of Nute Gunray not being brought to justice. He was still the Viceroy, still in charge of the TF, and the TF was still up and running!

    Once again, overkill by the bad guys is a common trope in cinema and television. You can create alternative plans for almost every evil doer's grandiose scheme that would probably get the same result, but, than they wouldn't be the bad guys. Not sure what to tell you if you don't like that trope, but, it is a common trope none-the-less.

    http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ThereIsNoKillLikeOverkill

    Actually it does make it better, as it sets up that in the next couple films we will see Nute do teh same exact thing. He will enter a war where he is responsible for being part of a war that kills billions. Nute is not a cunning planning bad guy, he is the moraless, greed driven bad guy that just acts on blatant greed. The cunning and planning is left to Sidious.

    Not sure what your overall point is here? It comes across as taking a shot at the movie for the simple reason of taking a shot. Plot convenience or not, it has nothing to do with the discussion. You're continued opinion that the Trade Federation was committing genocide for sake of genocide is an unfounded opinion. They are doing what they are doing for a reason, and not simply because they want too.
     
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  14. Samuel Vimes

    Samuel Vimes Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 4, 2012
    First, the DS, that was overkill but not stupid overkill.
    The DS was a weapon of Terror and to get the most amount of terror, Tarkin choose an important world and one that didn't have any weapons to really hammer the message across. "Being unarmed won't protect you." He also did it to try and get Leia to tell him were the rebels were.
    So his plan is evil and horrible and all that, but it makes some dark sense.
    If instead he had gone on to destroy 50 more planets as a "demonstration" then this would be stupid overkill. He got the message across the first time. Doing it 50 more times just makes him seem mad.

    Intersting that you mention Lex Luthor.
    In the first Superman film, he is quite cartoony and his evil plan makes not that much sense.
    He wants to make his land valuable by sinking California. The nuclear fallout that would be there, the bad effects this would have on the economy plus an assortment of other issues don't concern him.
    And it mostly worked back in the 70's.
    Take Superman Returns where we have pretty much the same Luthor. Here he plans to destroy 1/3rd of the world to make a new continent and this would make him rich and powerful.
    Apparently not considering the global economic melt-down that this would cause or that some country could just send 100 soldiers over and shoot him and his 3 goons and simply take his new continent. This time, it didn't work and Superman Returns isn't viewed as a very good movie and Luthor is one of the films problems.

    You are correct in that in silver age comic books you could have villains that were just;
    This is Von Uber, Evil Genius that wants to rule the world.
    But some comics have tried to evolve a bit since then and try to add some layers and depth to their villains.

    Second example, take General Zod in Superman II and MoS. In the former he is a generic bad guy that wanted to rule Krypton because he is an Evil Bad guy and then he wanted to rule Earth for the same reason. Don't get me wrong, the character is still entertaining, mostly because Terence Stamp is a pretty good actor and he does a lot to make the character work and be interesting to watch.
    Then take Zod in MoS. There he has more layers and depth. He doesn't want to take over Krypton just because he is a bad guy. He has a duty and function that is in his genes. This duty is to protect Krypton and it's people. And when he sees that the council puts the planet and it's people at risk, he takes action. The goal isn't just so that he can rule, he is doing it to protect his people.
    He is still a villain in that he is willing to go to any length to achieve his goal but his motivation isn't simply "I am an Evil bad guy, Ha ha ha!!"

    Third example, the third Pirates movie. Where, in order to show how EEVVIIL the East India company is, they are shown hanging a kid. This was overkill and stupid overkill. Not to mention tasteless.

    Point being, for a writer to say "This is the antagonist and he is an evil bad guy and thus his actions and motivations don't have to make sense. He does what he does because he is an evil bad guy."
    That, to me, isn't good writing. It might be serviceable but not good.

    This also is the opposite of many PT defenders have said over the years.
    That the PT is complex and many layered. The characters are complicated and have great depth.
    It isn't the OT's black and white, good vs evil. This is shades of grey and good and evil are not clearly defined.
    So having the TF be Evil Bad Guys that have no problem with doing mass murder is pretty much the opposite of that. They are as simple evil bad guys as the empire.

    To me, I find it more interesting for Sidious to corrupt morally grey characters and getting them to do questionable things, like blockading worlds, invading worlds or starting wars.
    If the TF and the other seps are totally evil and go "Mass murder, enslaving people and starving whole planets? Where do we sign on?"
    That is far less interesting.


    The issue is stupid overkill.
    Getting her to co-operate, then you need only to hurt a few hundred or maybe a few thousand to get that message across. Same goes for Sio Bibble. Or they could simply forge a transmission or better yet, forge her signature. Since the TF aren't playing by any rules then just fake her signature.
    The republic apparently has no laws against treaties signed under duress so they would probably not care about this either.
    Hurting a few hundred people is easier to cover up that hurting or killing the entire population. And the TF are concerned with their image.


    The invasion army caused Qui-Gon to say;
    "This is an odd play by the TF."
    And later he says that there is no logic behind the TF's actions.
    What they had done thus far, was to blockade a planet due a tax dispute they had with the senate.
    This was "going too far."
    In all, it doesn't sound like planetary invasions was normal for the TF.


    And this greed has made them brave enough to blockade Naboo in protest over a tax.
    But it is quite a bit further that this greed also made them cold blooded enough to do large scale mass murder for no reason.

    Also, about greed, it would seem that Nute and the TF want the tax gone. That is why they blockade Naboo. But how does the invasion help that? And Sidious tells them that he will keep things at a stand still in the senate. That is NOT what the TF want. They want action and they want the senate to remove the tax.

    No once again you are confusing morality with a character not doing pointlessly evil things for no reason because he knows that these things could give him a very bad PR problem or land him in jail.

    Take Rick Santorum and when he tried to become the Republican President candidate.
    At one rally he called Obama ".. government nig.." and then he stopped himself.
    It very much seems he was about to use the N-word but stopped himself partway through.
    Was it morality that stopped him or was it the knowledge that calling the President the N-word would destroy his chances of being President?

    Nute is not brave, this is shown several times. The TF is shown as being concerned with it's image.
    Nute hesitated when told to invade, he and his crony seemed to regret the deal they made with the Sith and that things were getting out of hand.
    The person that the film shows, I don't see how he can show no hesitation of doing star large scale mass murder.
    So you argue that Nute can foresee the future?
    The events of AotC was not know to Nute and given his hesitation to start the invasion due to it might not being legal, it makes no sense that he would think this.
    The TF guys almost messed their pants when the Jedi came onboard and they seemed willing to give up right there. Nute hesitates when told to invade and questions if this is legal.

    Common trope doesn't make it good.
    Let me give a few examples.
    The Bond film, Tomorrow Never Dies. The villain there is an Evil Media Mogul. His goal is to get the TV rights in China. But the current leadership won't comply. So he plans to kill them and have the one guy he controls take over the country and give him the TV rights.
    But the way he plans to do this is to Nuke Beijing and probably cause WW3.
    Nuking a city to kill a dozen people is overkill but what makes it stupid is that this very likely start a global nuclear war that will kill humanity. So his TV rights would be worthless.
    This made him a bad villain and a stupid one at that.
    Why didn't he just assassinate the leaders? Given his resources and that he had a guy on the inside, that wouldn't be hard. But no, nuke the city and start WW3, much better.
    Even Stromberg and Drax had better motivation. They wanted to destroy the old world and build a new one in it's place. This guy wants to destroy the world to get TV rights.

    Or take the most recent film, Spectre. There the villain is very EEEVILL and is more concerned in messing with Bond than the big plan his organization has been working on for some time.
    In fact he screws up his organization's plan just so that he can mess some more with Bond.
    So he and Spectre looses because he is dumb.
    Again not a good villain and it seems many in the audience agreed as this film did less well at the BO and many critics and regular audience members cited the villain as a problem.

    I don't think so.
    First it paints the seps as nothing but evil bad guys with nothing redeeming about them.
    Which makes the RotS crawl "There are heroes on both sides" very out of place.
    Second, having him be a total idiot that does whatever evil things Sidious tells him to makes him much less interesting. And it makes Sidious less of a villain. He doesn't have to manipulate a character that is on the grey scale or morality. He just tells a mindless evil bad guy to do evil stuff and the mindless bad guy just does it, no questions asked.


    [/QUOTE]

    My overall point is that IF the TF are going to these great lengths to secure Naboo. Putting EVERY LAST PERSON in a prison camp. Then them leaving these fighters fueled and armed inside the palace they control is more than a little odd. The TF are apparently more concerned with locking up women and children than dealing with military hardware right under their noses.
    Plus this along with them removing all but one of their ships, Qui-Gon brining Anakin along to a war zone for no apparent reason is very contrived writing.

    Bye for now.
    Blackboard Monitor
     
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  15. The_Phantom_Calamari

    The_Phantom_Calamari Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Nov 10, 2011

    Doesn't matter how much technically arable land they have. If they don't have the necessary agricultural infrastructure already built up, it's not going to matter. You're not going to be able to come up with enough food to feed a population that's used to relying largely on imports. Especially not within the span of a month.
     
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  16. Huttese 101

    Huttese 101 Sam Witwer Enthusiast star 6

    Registered:
    Jan 19, 2016
    We don't know if Naboo relied on imports for most of its food. According to the Essential Atlas (not technically canon anymore), Naboo exported grain, which I guess implies that they produced a good deal for themselves and then some, maybe enough for the whole population of ~4.5 billion. The Essential Atlas lists "processed foods" as an import, so I guess that could include exotic foods, or fruit, meat etc. But blocking importation of that stuff wouldn't starve the Naboo. And I'm guessing they had pretty robust agriculture on the planet if they did export foodstuffs.
     
  17. The_Phantom_Calamari

    The_Phantom_Calamari Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Nov 10, 2011

    Just because they export grain doesn't necessarily mean they have enough of a surplus to feed the entire population. Import/export economics is more complicated than that.
     
  18. Jedi_Sith_Smuggler_Droid

    Jedi_Sith_Smuggler_Droid Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Mar 13, 2014
    Great post. One thing stands out as not ringing true. Sio Bibble being intimidated into creating a genuine false transmission for the Queen. I don’t doubt if his family was threatened Sio Bibble would go along to create a message. But that message could still communicate more than the Niemodians would understand.

    My question is about the security protocols in place around the Queen. For a ruler operating with such a complicated system of decoys and secret code words between handmaidens, the Queen, and security forces, surely Sio Bibble would also have some training for communications while captured. Either he’d include a turn of phrase that is a code, or he would omit a coded phrase to inform the Queen and Panaka about the message.
     
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  19. Glitterstimm

    Glitterstimm Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Dec 30, 2017
    My impression has always been that when Sio Bibble says "catastrophic" it's a relative term. Naboo hasn't experienced war or mass violence in a very long time, maybe never, and so a relatively small number of deaths could be seen as catastrophic to them. One of the leading causes of death for young people in America is traffic accidents, but it doesn't cause us to lower speed limits across the board or drastically restrict driver licensing because we've become inoculated to it. Terrorism is much more horrific to us though and we had disproportionate responses to it because it was unusual.

    Maybe the number of deaths caused by the occupation of Naboo was relatively small, but for them it was catastrophic.
     
  20. DARTHLINK

    DARTHLINK Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Feb 24, 2005
    Here's my take on this:

    -> Were there people dying? Yes. I mean, their home planet is being invaded, so of course they're going to fight back. Hundreds, if not thousands probably died already in the fighting. The Naboo weren't going to just sit there and let the Nemodians steamroll over them.

    -> I agree that to the Naboo, any death toll is catastrophic even if it's just a few hundred because they've never seen this before. Now, as to why Bibbles didn't say a coded word or omit? He's probably panicking too much to remember to do that. Especially if he's being held at blasterpoint off-screen.

    -> Were there prison camps? Of course. I mean, this is a war after all. No doubt they threw the important governmental staff and families there. And anyone who tried to resist. The rest? Carry on, but don't do anything stupid.

    -> I don't know where this whole 'Nute wants to kill everyone' argument came from, but I'm with Samuel Vimes on this one. If the dude got queasy over the idea of putting his droids on the planet for an invasion (queasy in the sense of 'will this ruin our reputation', not queasy in the sense that it's morally wrong) then committing wholesale genocide wouldn't even cross his mind.
     
    Last edited: Aug 28, 2021
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  21. Samuel Vimes

    Samuel Vimes Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 4, 2012
    Good post and I mostly agree.
    Camps are mentioned and they make sense for the leadership of the Naboo.
    Putting the ENTIRE planet in camps would be a massive operation and for what reason?

    The idea that the TF wants to genocide the whole population makes no sense. Aside from being horrible, Nute is not shown as that callous nor that into mass-murder and it would be a very bad look for him.
    Plus, why? They want Naboo but if they kill the whole population then they have a planet and five billion corpses. What is the gain here?
    And if they do this just to get Padme to submit, then it is stupid overkill. Padme has family on Naboo, capture them and threaten them with death. Or just threaten the people that Padme worked with with death. If Padme can see thousands of people, including her own family, die and not budge then she will not budge for anything.

    Where I slightly disagree is with the fighting. Naboo has no military, just security volunteers. They said flat out that they would be no match for the TF army. And we saw the conquest of the capital and no shots were fired that I could see.
    So i think the film paints the Naboo as knowing that they are outmatched and surrender in the face of overwhelming odds. Would the common folk on Naboo fight the droid armies of the TF?
    There is a mention that some people managed to avoid capture and formed a resistance. But if there had been much if any fighting is not clear.

    Bye for now.
    Old Stoneface
     
  22. devilinthedetails

    devilinthedetails Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Jun 19, 2019
    Were people dying on Naboo? Well, the obvious answer is that people are dying everywhere at every time, and certainly on a planet the size of Naboo with a population in the billions, that would be the case. There would have to be a base level death rate. So, I think the questions become how elevated above this base level of death was the death toll on Naboo, was that death toll level elevation enough to be deemed catastrophic, and how reliable was Sio Bibble's statement that it was catastrophically high?

    I think the answers to these questions are nuanced and open to individual interpretation based on what is shown and not shown in the films. Some points I would consider would be the following:

    -Blockades can have both economic and strategic military purposes. Economically, they hurt trade, blocking imports and exports, and are kind of like sanctions on steroids. Militarily, they are similar in concept to sieges. The point of a siege is to drain an enemy of supplies. To basically starve an enemy into submission. Siege warfare even with medieval level storage capabilities (we would expect Naboo as an advanced society to have more advanced food storage capabilities) could take a long time. It's long haul type of warfare. The blockade is already in place at the outset of TPM. I don't believe it is directly stated within the film how long the blockade has been going on prior to the outset of the film. Long enough for Chancellor Valorum to be aware of the situation, to dispatch Jedi to negotiate a resolution, and for the Jedi to travel from Coruscant to Naboo. So maybe for a couple of days. Probably not much more than a week at most. Some food shortages might occur in that time, but I wouldn't expect the citizens of Naboo to be starving en masse in that amount of time. The government might have needed to implement rationing, but I don't believe large numbers of citizens should be starving in the streets in this amount of time.

    -How many citizens of Naboo were killed during the invasion of Naboo? We don't receive any exact or estimated figures that I can recall in TPM. The droids were armed and the Trade Federation had massive tanks, while the Naboo had a security force and no real army and seemed to be a pacifistic people opposed to violence. I expect a certain amount of Naboo citizens would've been casualties of the invasion (probably a number in the thousands given a total planetary population likely to be in the billions) even though I think the Naboo by and large would have cooperated and surrendered more than resisted.

    -How harsh were living conditions in the camps the Naboo were forced into? Did the Trade Federation feed the citizens at the camps or would that have contradicted the point of the blockade? Did the citizens in the camps have access to medical supplies and care if needed? How sanitary were the camps? Filthy conditions are more likely to result in a higher death toll than more hygienic ones. Access to medical care and supplies would reduce the death toll, where denial of medical care and supplies would increase the death toll. Distribution of even minimal amounts of food would cut down on the death toll while no distribution of food would likely increase it. Regardless, there would probably be a certain number of elderly and vulnerable people health wise who would die in the camps and some others who might be killed for resisting the droids or being seen as resisting or defying them. The pilots rescued from the camps to destroy the Trade Federation control ship in the Battle of Naboo don't look particularly famished or starved, however, so that may be a point in favor of the argument that the people did receive some food in the camps. Either way, I would imagine that at least hundreds and maybe thousands more Naboo would be killed in these camps.

    -Can the deaths of hundreds and thousands of people be deemed as catastrophic? Certainly. 2,996 people were victims of 9/11. Most would call that a catastrophic death toll even though the US population was 285 million in 2001. Catastrophic is a relative and emotional term often used to describe tragic and traumatic events and deaths. So the deaths in the Naboo camps and invasion would fit the definition for that, in my opinion.

    -Was Sio Bibble's message a lie he was forced by the Trade Federation to make as bait for a trace on the ship's location? Sio Bibble's words could be a lie he was forced to tell by the Trade Federation to pressure the Queen into replying to his message that was bait for a trace or it could be the truth. The truth can serve as bait in this case as effectively as a lie if not more effectively. So the fact that the message is bait for a location trace is not in my opinion proof either way about the truth of Sio Bibble's words of the death toll being catastrophic. Even Obi-Wan, who insists per Qui-Gon's orders that no reply be sent in response to Sio Bibble's message, asks Qui-Gon what if the message is true and people are dying. So the question is very much alive in Obi-Wan's mind. Obi-Wan doesn't necessarily believe that Sio Bibble's words about a catastrophic death toll are a lie.

    Personally, I think the death toll probably was catastrophic on Naboo in terms of thousands of people dying in the camps and invasion itself. Catastrophic is ultimately a subjective term open to individual interpretation, and TPM lets the audience make such individual interpretations.
     
    Last edited: Aug 28, 2021
  23. AEHoward33

    AEHoward33 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 11, 2019
    I believe the Trade Federation was killing those who were opposing its occupation.
     
  24. Samuel Vimes

    Samuel Vimes Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 4, 2012
    That the blockade would starve the Naboo is never said and it is a PLANET and a very fertile one from what we see. It sure didn't seem overpopulated so what reason do we have to think they are not self-sufficient in food? The blockade would disrupt trade and leave the Naboo without any income from such trade. It is possible that they import some luxury goods for eating but that does not have to mean they will starve.
    If the blockade was causing famine on Naboo or could cause that, then that is important enough to warrant a mention. It would also make the Senate slowness to act a bit more dire and the Jedi mission would be a little more urgent. And Nute was concerned with image, if the blockade was causing starvation on Naboo then his image gets rather tainted.

    Bye for now.
    Old Stoneface
     
  25. DARTHLINK

    DARTHLINK Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Feb 24, 2005
    Of course. I just don’t think ‘planetary genocide’ was on his to-do list. Nute isn’t Frieza from Dragonball Z. He has no interest in doing something that drastic, horrible, and overall stupidly evil.