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PT TPM: Were people really dying on Naboo?

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by True Sith, Mar 13, 2016.

  1. AusStig

    AusStig Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Feb 3, 2010
    Just because they grow stuff doesn't mean they grow food. Cash crops (like cotton) are a thing, the US South in the Civil war grew a lot of crops but not a lot of food. Especially if they are used to trading to get food in, just like Germany before ww1 or UK in ww2 or even China today.
     
  2. Samuel Vimes

    Samuel Vimes Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Sep 4, 2012
    Naboo is a PLANET, quite a whole lot bigger than a country.
    It is verdant and lush so they can grow food on it. We see local wild life and fish.
    So nothing suggest that it is dependent on food import and it would not make much sense if they were.
    A planet like Courscant, that is a big city, that would need to import food and lots of it since it has no space to grow plants. It might have huge underground caverns that grow food but that is speculation.

    Bye for now.
    Old Stoneface
     
  3. darkspine10

    darkspine10 Chosen One star 8

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    Dec 7, 2014
    I mean, Naboo might not necessarily have any large-scale farming capable of sustaining the whole planet. We never see a single farm, and much of the countryside is untamed wilderness (the forests/plains). In a pinch they might turn to hunting the megafauna, but during TPM they're under occupation. It seems plausible to me that a rich planet such as Naboo, with a strong arts focus, would outsource their food to an offworld source. There's also the Gungans to consider of course, they seem isolationist enough that they would require some kind of local food source, fish or lake algae being the most likely. Lush and green doesn't have to translate straight to arable land, especially in a setting with other planets to trade with.
     
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  4. Samuel Vimes

    Samuel Vimes Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Sep 4, 2012
    Again, it is a PLANET. I am sorry to keep repeating that but a planet is massive. How much of the entire planet did we see in TPM and AotC? A tiny fraction. Not seeing farms does not have to equal farms don't exist. Absence of evidence =/= evidence of absence.
    The planet is fertile that is obvious and it has a lot of water so farming is very possible.
    Why would they set themselves up to be totally dependent on imported food when they don't have to?
    That makes no sense.
    Say they are five billion people on Naboo. How much food will they eat in a day?
    Say 200 gram/person so that means about 100 000 ton every day.
    So every day there would be a lot of ships arriving with food which then have to be distributed all over the planet. This is cumbersome and makes themselves very vulnerable for any disruption in their food supply.
    Not to mention that this would be far more costly than producing the food locally.
    And if they have no food production then they would need several planets that supply them with food, not just one.
    In the Foundation books, Trantor, the capital, that was a big city planet, that needed 25 worlds to supply it with food. It was the capital of a huge Empire so it could do that. Naboo is a minor planet.

    "Strong arts focus" do you think everyone on the planet are artists? That would not be very practical.
    Planets like Coruscant would need to import food. Tatooine quite likely as well given the harsh climate.
    Naboo? Why? Why make things difficult for themselves for no reason?

    Bye for now.
    Old Stoneface
     
  5. darkspine10

    darkspine10 Chosen One star 8

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    Dec 7, 2014
    Firstly, we don't know the population of Naboo. It could be 10,000, it could be 10 billion. They could all be colonists who settled the planet and relied on an interplanetary network of food shipments, thus never investing in large-scale farming. They could be like Coruscant, choosing to use their wealth to import over producing their own. Space travel is easy in Star Wars, there doesn't have to be any real logistics problem, not one that distributing from a number local farms wouldn't also have. There are any number of regions why an idyllic seeming world would rely on other communities for their livelihood. Given the focus on intergalactic trade, it seems there's a robust network of supply and demand.

    Star Wars planets are designed to be simple sketches. Naboo is a planet on which we see no farms, and then has problems with food access. Ergo, they don't produce enough food on their own to feed everyone. A lot of places in the real world depend on food imports, even if they do have some local supplies.
     
  6. AusStig

    AusStig Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    Feb 3, 2010
    We see grass and trees, we don't know that food will grow there, the trees could be adapted to the environment (and swamps). We don't see evidence that they grow their own food in the movies.
     
  7. Samuel Vimes

    Samuel Vimes Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 4, 2012
    The population of Naboo, 10 000 is very unlikely given the big stone buildings we see. If the planet was recently colonized they would not have these types of buildings. Also why would a planet with such a tiny population have a seat in the Senate?
    It would also mean that the entire population lives in just the one city.

    Coruscant can't have farming as the planet is one big city. So not much of a choice.

    And again you keep not seeing the difference between a region and a planet.
    And bringing food to a planet involves distances that are many orders of magnitude larger than any planetary distance. Plus any disruption would have very bad results if they produce no food on their own.

    You are using the logical fallacy of absence of evidence = evidence of absence.
    We never see people in SW go to the bathroom so does that mean they never do?
    No, that would be illogical.
    We see tiny parts of Naboo and nowhere is it said that it does not have farming thus you have no evidence that they totally lack farming.
    We see that the planet has lots of water and lots of plant life so farming is quite possible.
    So again why do you assume that they don't do that?

    The film never says anything about problems with food access at the start when it was just the blockade.
    They mention trade not food supplies.
    Later, when the TF have conquered Naboo then food shortages and starving people are brought up.
    But then the TF have total control over the planet and can stop any delivery and some people are locked away in camps and thus totally dependent on the TF giving them food.

    Again this is a logical fallacy, absence of evidence =/= evidence of absence.
    And Naboo has water and it has both trees, bushes and grass so it would be very illogical to assume that crops can not grow there.

    In short, at the start, the film never says anything about people starving on Naboo because their food deliveries are cut off. That issue is only brought up when the TF have taken total control over the planet and put some or all the people in camps.
    IF the Naboo were starving due to the blockade then that is important enough to be mentioned at the start of the film but Padme never says anything about that when she talks with Nute at the start.
    It also makes the senate inability to act more troubling, people are starving to death on Naboo and they can not get their act together?
    And it makes the Jedi's casual attitude also a bit puzzling.
    Plus Nute was concerned with his image, if he is starving the planet just because of his dispute with the senate over some tax, his image is pretty ruined.

    Bye for now.
    Old Stoneface
     
  8. AusStig

    AusStig Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Feb 3, 2010
    And yet it is the same as what you have been using.

    Australia has Trees Bushes and Grass, but crops often have trouble due to the salinity levels of the soil.

    You don't have to starve to be on rations or something else.

    Unless we think the death toll was due to resistance and reprisals.
     
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  9. Samuel Vimes

    Samuel Vimes Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Sep 4, 2012
    Australia is a mostly arid country and yet they are able to grow and export crops.
    Sugarcane, wheat, barley, lupin bean, chickpeas, oats, grapes etc.

    So how is that proof that farming is impossible on Naboo?

    If Naboo is 100% reliant on food import and they produce nothing on their own. Then since the TF stopped all shipping, they are starving the population.

    And we don't know if there was a death toll or not. Sio mentioned it but that message was sent to make Padme respond so the death toll could have been a lie or greatly exaggerated.

    The TF have put some or all in camps and Nute says;
    So the death toll, if any, is due to the TF having people in camps and starving them.

    Bye for now.
    Old Stoneface
     
  10. AusStig

    AusStig Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    Feb 3, 2010
    I never said it was 100% reliant on food imports, none of my examples were 100%. I also never said it was impossible, just that the trees and grass did not equal farming.

    So you think the famine is 100% due to the TF holding food. Not a lack of imports.
     
  11. Samuel Vimes

    Samuel Vimes Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 4, 2012
    Your argument was this;
    Ergo, we don't see any farms so farms do not exist.
    You argued that they don't grow their own food so therefore they are 100% dependent on importing food.

    If you say that some farms do exist and thus some food production on Naboo, why then have you argued how the film does not show any farms and thus no farms exist? Or how the presence of water and lots of vegetation would somehow not mean that crops could also be grown?
    If you are ok with the existence of some farms despite not being shown, why are you arguing with me?

    The film have the TF put some or all of the population in camps, that is said in dialogue.
    We also have Nute talk about how people are starving.
    The logic is simple, the people that are in camps are totally dependent of food the TF bring and if the TF stop brining any food, they will starve.
    So the starvation is due to the TF denying food to those in camps.
    From what the film shows, there is no indication that there was any starvation or food shortages just due to the blockade.

    Bye for now.
    Old Stoneface
     
  12. AusStig

    AusStig Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    Feb 3, 2010
    Because you argued that they did grow food. You said that they grow food so I pointed out that we don't see any evidence of that.

    Sure I guess you could think that. Agree to disagree.
     
  13. Samuel Vimes

    Samuel Vimes Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 4, 2012
    No, what happened was this, earlier in this thread some posters argued that the blockade caused food shortages or rationing on Naboo.
    I questioned this as;
    a) This is never said or implied to have happened at the start of the film. Starvation is only mentioned when the TF have conquered the planet and put people in camps.
    b) What reasons do we have for thinking that Naboo is not self-sufficient in food?
    Hence why I brought up water and lots of plant life. Ergo there isn't anything that indicates that farming is impossible on Naboo. You and others argued that we see no farms so therefore farms do not exist. That is a logical fallacy.
    Had Coruscant or Tatooine been placed under a similar blockade then yes an argument could be made that it would cause food-shortages or starvation. Coruscant has no farmable land as it is all city and Tatooine is a harsh, desert planet where farming would be difficult if not impossible.
    c) If he blockade was causing food shortages or possibly starvation then that is important enough to mention IN the film. I think it would be sloppy storytelling if that did happen but was never mentioned.
    And finally d) Given that Nute was hesitant and concerned with his image, had he been starving the population of Naboo, his image would look very bad.

    Bye.
    Blackboard Monitor
     
  14. dagenspear

    dagenspear Jedi Master star 4

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    Sep 9, 2015
    I think the message Padme receives suggested to be a trap to mess with Padme, push her to feel desperate enough to go for a vote of no confidence in Valorum and garner sympathy in the senate, all to get Palpatine elected Chancellor.
     
    Last edited: Sep 3, 2021
  15. Samuel Vimes

    Samuel Vimes Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 4, 2012
    Except that the message was used to get a trace on Padme's ship and Maul was sent to kill the Jedi and get her back to Naboo. So did Palpatine do all that and also planning that Maul would fail?
    Why bother to send Maul then?

    Did Palpatine plan for Padme to come to Coruscant at the start of TPM?
    If so, did he plan for two Jedi to be sent, the TF try and fail to kill them, they would be able to free Padme and escape the blockade?
    Seems a very convoluted plan.
    I think that he did not plan that, the plan was for Padme to sign some sort of treaty and he would then use that in the senate. But when Padme turned up, he was able to think on his feet and adapted and used her to remove Valorum instead.

    Bye for now.
    Blackboard Monitor
     
  16. dagenspear

    dagenspear Jedi Master star 4

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    Sep 9, 2015
    I think either angle could play into Palpatine's end goal.
     
  17. Dandelo

    Dandelo SW and Film Music Interview Host star 10 VIP - Game Host

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    Aug 25, 2014
    I think I have to agree with Samuel Vimes here on the whole Naboo starving thing when Naboo is cleary a luscious green planet, with lots of plants/trees and giant field fleas to feast on.

    If Lucas' intention was to show that this planet wasn't capable of sustaining itself when it comes to food, then, yikes...he chose the wrong type of planet to show that. It's basically a much nicer, cleaner Earth.
     
  18. FightoftheForgotten

    FightoftheForgotten Jedi Master star 4

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    May 19, 2020
    Then why out your secret Sith society if not outing your secret Sith society will also work?

    Here's the thing, ANYTHING can lead to Palpatine being a dictator. How the director goes about conveying this to the audience matters. The way the PT is framed, Palpatine is a master manipulator, but the hard work is never put in. He's like Lex Luthor in BvS; he just knows everything because the story needs him to.

    All we needed was one scene between Maul and Sidious, after Maul fails to kill Qui-Gon on Tatooine. Sidious tells Maul that Maul's failure will mean the Jedi will reach Coruscant and Palpatine will have to alter his plan accordingly. It lets the audience see how Palpatine reacts to failure and how he ultimately gets what he wants even though is original plan didn't work. One scene and then your audience will buy that Palpatine is able to this again in AOTC and again in ROTS.

    Instead we just have to accept that Palpatine is great at everything and everything works out for him because reasons.
     
  19. dagenspear

    dagenspear Jedi Master star 4

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    Sep 9, 2015
    I actually think that the impending threat of more sith control can be suggested to fuel the jedi's interest more.

    The difference is very stark to me, between the 2. Palpatine is a force user. It makes sense, to me, with that, he'll be able to figure out how things can happen that will lead to his end goal. Lex Luthor is just a guy.

    I don't think we need that. I'm not saying it'd be bad or couldn't happen. But we already have a scene in TPM, when Palpatine speaks to the trade federation and seems bitter about Padme's actions and such. I also don't think Palpatine needs to address that perceived failure.

    If you want to talk about how the movie doesn't really show how Palpatine maneuvers like he does, I've thought of that myself and think it could be made clearer. But, with what the movies have presented, I think the flaw isn't a heavy one.
     
  20. darkspine10

    darkspine10 Chosen One star 8

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    Dec 7, 2014
    See, I don't think that hypothesised scene is too necessary, because a) it rather bluntly tells us Palpatine's motivations, which are meant to be much more obscured, and b) we do see Palpatine's response, in his guise as Senator, subtly manipulating Padme's actions and decisions. We see him have to try and angle Padme a certain way to make things end up the way he wants, without a simplistic line where he just outs himself to the audiences.

    As for outing the Sith, it seems clear given the events in AOTC and ROTS that Palps is advertising the presence of forces against the Jedi as a means of confusing their judgement and putting them on edge. It's especially clear with the stuff Dooku says to Obi-Wan, attempting to drive a wedge between the Jedi and Senate, while also bigging up the threat of the Sith so that they do something rash like accepting the Clone army or rushing in to arrest Palpatine, because of their underlying doubt about the whole situation.
     
  21. FightoftheForgotten

    FightoftheForgotten Jedi Master star 4

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    May 19, 2020
    These aren't the actual reasons for why the Jedi do things though. What you're talking about would actually make the movies much better.
     
  22. Scoffed-Gherkin

    Scoffed-Gherkin Jedi Padawan star 2

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    Sep 11, 2021
    The real problem here (and this IS a writing problem) is that it just spends 45 minutes on a side quest more or less totally unrelated to the film’s main conflict. Different stakes, different villain, etc. This was Lucas’s (pretty lame, honestly) attempt to make the invasion of Naboo still salient…but it really doesn’t work. And the tension and stakes NEVER really recover from the fact that Lucas just spent 45 minutes away from it.

    I get it. He felt that he needed to jam the discovery of Anakin Skywalker and Darth Sidious’s rise to the Chancellorship in the same film. But it REALLY doesn’t work. And Lucas’s attempt to make Anakin relevant to how the invasion of Naboo concludes is just REALLY BAD. It’s utterly contrived, it’s pretty stupid, and the plot contortions required to make it work are really irritating. It just totally defies logic and intelligence.

    People always say that Jar Jar is the worst thing about The Phantom Menace. But as annoying as he is, he really isn’t the film’s biggest problem. The film’s biggest problem is the attempt to wed these two narratives together. And it REALLY. DOES. NOT. WORK. (Attack of the Clones is a worse film by nearly every conceivable measure, but at least it doesn’t suffer from this problem. It DOES do a better job of weaving together its main 2 narrative threads- the secret forbidden romance between Anakin and Padmé Amidala and the beginning of the Clone Wars- than The Phantom Menace does.)
     
    Last edited: Oct 8, 2021
  23. DARTHLINK

    DARTHLINK Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Feb 24, 2005
    Honestly, he should've had The Phantom Menace open with Anakin already a Jedi knight under Obi-Wan, and Palpatine already the chancellor.
     
  24. dagenspear

    dagenspear Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 9, 2015
    I think that takes away the interesting parts.
    I think that's your opinion.
    I actually think the jedi getting more rash in the case of particularly the Palpatine arrest, is a showcase the jedi's fear of the sith.
     
    Last edited: Oct 9, 2021
  25. Scoffed-Gherkin

    Scoffed-Gherkin Jedi Padawan star 2

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    Sep 11, 2021
    It’s my opinion that the Naboo plot never regains momentum after they leave Tatooine.

    It is NOT my opinion that the Naboo plot just absolutely STOPS for 45 minutes to make way for another movie with completely different stakes.

    It’s also worth remembering that I don’t hate The Phantom Menace. Many people do. I’m not one of them. I like Qui-Gon, I like most of the set pieces and I like the Saturday matinee serial tone of the movie. It’s not good, but it’s absolutely passable.
     
    Last edited: Oct 9, 2021
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