JCC Transgender, nonbinary, genderqueer

seems simple to me. if a nonbinary person has a penis, they should use the male bathroom. if they have a vagina, the female bathroom.

removing all labels on bathrooms because of a ridiculously small number of people seems a very silly idea

 

i agree

i think if you have a penis and you're using a bathroom labelled as female, you're using up valuable cubicle space. that is some important real estate

 

People need to remember that life is a compromise. While we can strive to reduce discrimination against whoever, you have to realize we will never be able to accommodate for everyone's needs and demands. The problem in today's ultra PC world is that if you do not accommodate someone you are automatically labeled as a person who willingly discriminates because you hate X or Y group of people.

You can't always get what you want, and when it doesn't work out it doesn't mean people hate you. Sure there's plenty of hate out there, but be mindful of intent and context. People forget that or choose to ignore it. That's why today everyone is literally offended by everything anyone says about anything. Its ridiculous.

 

So just to be clear here from the start so there's absolutely no ambiguity as to where I'm coming from: I'm transsexual (transitioning medically from male to female), I'm straight (attracted to men), and I've been lurking here for several years.

Anyway!

Yeah I heard this and honestly my takeaway was that this person was coping with being transsexual in an... unusual and frankly... less than ideal fashion. Like: she seemed essentially to be conflating "gender" with "mood", so like, when she's in a chipper chatty mood she's like "I'm a girl now" but when she's gloomy and withdrawn she's like "I'm a man." Which is really sexist but I guess also kind of understandable given how gender is talked about in activist and queer circles in recent years-- as though it's some sort of analogue for personality rather than a system of sex-based cultural stereotypes (oppression, if you're looking at it from a feminist framework) or whatever.

Anyway this sort of thing-- people in the midst of transition identifying as bigender and even claiming to switch back and forth at random-- is uncommon but not unheard of (I've come across a few people who have done this) but I don't think there's any actual neurological or whatever basis for it. From what I've seen they almost invariably settle into fairly typical binary identities once they're more secure in their transition. Which, iirc, is how it ultimately shook out for the person in the interview-- didn't the host do an epilogue where she spoke to her on the phone several months later and found she was no longer identifying as bigender?

 

Actually, there is increasing evidence that the human brain is far from being one gender or sex. The latest evidence seems to show that what one might think of think of as 'male brained' and 'female brained' fall at opposite ends of a spectrum, with the vast, vast majority of brains being somewhere along that spectrum.

Gender binary is very much a western world/Abrahamic/Judeo-Christian thing. Many non western cultures have three or more genders. Some native American peoples from what I understand recognised as many as six different genders. Non binary genders are quite often found in south and south east Asia. Some in these groups do suffer persecution, others do not.

The bathroom thing is a tricky one. In the long term the solution to me would be to not have bathrooms assigned by gender. Unfortunately, I can understand why many, particularly women, would be uncomfortable with this. I hope in time that this won't be an issue. But I do not know what the short and medium term solutions might be.

 

I don't know, there's a pretty solid movement in the US now for single occupancy bathrooms to be unlabeled. I mean, honestly, if there are two single stall bathrooms in a place one for men, one for women, and the women's is occupied, I'm not gonna stand in the hallway like an idiot and wait to use that one when the other one is identical except for the label on the door. I use single occupancy "men's" rooms all the time because of that.

There's also a trend of adding an extra single occupancy bathroom even when there are Men's/Women's multiple-stall bathrooms. These are usually built to be ADA accessible and also have changing tables and are often labeled as "family bathrooms" because parents can take their kids of opposite genders in without having it be awkward. Nonbinary people and people who don't feel comfortable going into either the mens' or womens' room for whatever reason can use these. I don't really see any of these solutions as silly, they're utterly practical for a variety of reasons.

Interesting. Switching gender instantaneously depending on mood isn't something I've heard of before. (I'm not super educated on nonbinary gender, so maybe it isn't actually that rare.) The only person I know personally who is genderqueer/genderfluid was assigned female at birth and now uses male pronouns, but presents differently on different days just depending on how he feels. He still likes to get dressed up in fancy dresses and makeup sometimes, but often dresses and expresses as androgynous. It seems to work for him to just express however he feels that day, but I've never witnessed him having an instantaneous "switch" between one gender or another, it's very fluid.

 

The latest evidence shows nothing of the sort. Or rather if you want to interpret the fact that individual men can have personality traits and tendencies culturally associated with women and vice versa as "a spectrum of gender" then I guess it does but this sort of framework is just... stupid. And sexist. And obscures analysis of gender as a sex-based caste system by presenting it as a myriad of individual personalities. It's not.

Most non-Western cultures are actually way more strictly binary than the modern western world. Like that's why they have third and fourth genders: it's what they do with males who act like females and vice versa. If you're at all into combating sexism this sort of system very much is not something to be admired.

The best solution is for single-stall unisex (or "family") bathrooms to be available in newly constructed buildings, that way if someone's not comfortable using either the men's or women's room there's an option, plus they can be used by anyone so it's not a waste of space and money.

 

Don't some folks describe themselves as 'gender fluid'?

 

[/quote]
The best solution is for single-stall unisex (or "family") bathrooms to be available in newly constructed buildings, that way if someone's not comfortable using either the men's or women's room there's an option, plus they can be used by anyone so it's not a waste of space and money.[/quote]


Sounds like a good idea I suppose. A few places I know don't have gendered bathrooms, for space reasons mainly, so it seems reasonable that this could be widely implemented.

 

Yeah, they do. It's a term that is again describing something that is becoming more recognised. Coming across this term has helped me to figure myself out a little bit more, even though I would be reluctant to use that label myself.

 

having unlabelled single stall bathrooms makes sense to me. in fact i've used the women's single stall, and the family stall, when the men's is being used. i was more referring to larger bathrooms though. there's a space practicality in having urinals in mens bathrooms, and i'd say most people wouldn't be comfortable if everything was unisex. who knows, maybe that will change one day, but i think we're a fair way away from that. and there's not really any pressing need to make drastic changes.

 

I think avoiding gender neutral/unisex multiple stall bathrooms makes sense and I wouldn't advocate for them, at least not in current day. But saying that there's not any pressing need to make drastic changes is indicative only of your own personal experience. There are a lot of people who do feel there's a pressing need to make changes, for their own health and safety.

 

are you referring to multiple stall bathrooms with your last sentence?

 

I don't understand the question? I'm referring to the public bathroom situation generally.

 

i'm not sure i get the health and safety issue. like people fearful of being attacked or something?

my main point is that it's not practical for buildings to change to unisex toilets on the basis of a very small number of people not being comfortable with separate male and female bathrooms (multi use). that's more than just my own personal experience; the amount of people wanting that change will be dwarfed by those who don't, so it's just not going to happen. that's what i mean by no pressing need.

i agree about having a unisex/disabled stall put in wherever possible though.

 

By health I meant mental health - my understanding is that the decision of which bathroom to go into can be stressful or dysphoria-inducing for nonbinary people, or people who are trans but don't feel comfortable going into either bathroom.
Safety because, yes, a person who wants to use a bathroom of their gender and expresses as one gender but doesn't necessarily "pass" might have legitimate fear of being assaulted or harassed in using either gendered bathroom.

Again, I'm not advocating for changing separate multi-stall male/female bathrooms into unisex ones. Changing all single-occupancy bathrooms into unisex ones takes negligible effort and, like I said, is practical for a multitude of reasons beyond trans-inclusivity. Which isn't to say trans-inclusivity shouldn't be enough on its own, but clearly for you it isn't, so I'm positing that there are additional reasons they're a good idea.

Also I'm not comfortable with the idea of "not a lot of people want it, so we shouldn't bother" as a defense for any decision, really.

 

well, as i say, i don't have an issue with converting single stall bathrooms to unisex. i kinda got lost with all those double negatives in that sentence of yours, but yeah, i wouldn't have an issue with converting them if only just for transgender or nonbinary people.

as for your last point, usually i wouldn't either, but if it's a choice between 0.5% of people represented by transgender and nonbinary people being uncomfortable and, i dunno, say 25% represented by women being uncomfortable, then it's not really up for debate.

 

why would half of women be uncomfortable with single stall unisex bathrooms??!

 

i'm referring to multi stall!

i can't believe we've conversed so much about toilets

 

It IS the JCC...

 

Does Star Wars ever address trans issues?

 

Why would it?

 

I'm still trying to understand the terminology of pansexuality, From my understanding, the person is more attracted to personality rather than gender. Is that correct?