Senate Understanding Islam (and reading the Qur'an chapter by chapter)

Does this guy remind anyone of Moviefan2k4?

 

Let's see if we can all agree on a few points:

1. Giving refuge to innocents fleeing war zones is a good thing, and is encouraged by almost all religions, moralities, and philosophies.

2. Allowing terrorists disguised as refugees into your country is foolish.

3. Given 1 and 2, it would be wise to take a close look at refugees to make sure they are who and what they claim to be.

Where do we draw the line between welcoming the helpless and weeding out the hostiles? How long do we make the presumed innocents wait while we investigate? How much do we dig into their backgrounds? How much time can we take to protect ourselves while their suffering goes on? Where do we draw that line? As I see it, that's what the debate boils down to. We all want to help those who are suffering, and we all want to protect ourselves from those who wish us harm, but we can't seem to agree on exactly how to balance those contradictory desires.

 

You may want to add:

4. If it's fear of innocent casualties that drives this, why the hell isn't more being done about gun possession in the US in the first place?

 

Yeah nice deflection. Sarge asks a great question about EVERY COUNTRY including your own and you turn it back on the U.S. and gun control.

How about this: we deny all newcomers access to guns for a period of time? Consider it a grace period.

Solved.

 

We already do an immense amount of vetting. This makes it seem like we just let people in through turnstiles. That is not the case.

 

What type of vetting do we do?

 

Refugees from Syria who apply for U.S. residency go through an extreme amount of vetting. I am of the opinion that it's monstrous to subject the vast majority of those who have innocent intentions to such a long, arduous process to protect against a tiny fraction who will likely skip the process anyway. It's security theater akin to taking off your shoes at the airport, only much more inconvenient.

 

Jesus Shane. It's your country doing it now. When it's mine, we'll discuss that, alright?
Also, KW is right. Don't ask him, look it up.

 

Okay, look, out of respect for Ghost, let's open a new thread to continue debating this point and leave this thread to what Ghost originally intended. My original point was that Ghost should simply cross-reference everything with the hadiths as he was going through the koran because the koran is supposed to be interpreted through the hadiths. Just title it Spill-Over from the Understanding Islam Thread, and continue the debate there.

Ghost, I'm sorry. Didn't mean for it to go this direction. My intent was that the whole of islam be examined, not piecemeal. So I apologize, and I apologize if you think I was trying to bash you (I wasn't).

 

Like what? I'm genuinely curious what all of this vetting actually means and how Trump would do "extreme vetting". Forget the morality of it one way or the other.

What happens?

 

Here's a simplified explanation.

 

So basically multiple agencies cross check background information against one another. I watched Oliver's bit some time ago but wondered if more was involved.

Okay. Good enough for me. I don't see how you can go beyond that short of just outright ban in perpetuity.

I've said before they should just open the flood gates to a select area of the U.S. for a refugee area and take in more than we currently are. I think Obama had roughly 75k while Trump wants about 50k. We should do more than both of those. Just let as many as possible into certain secure zones and then resettle them once the war has subsided.

That would be on top of the regular process for refugees, which seems needlessly bureaucratic.

I don't want the floodgates open for moving into the general populace though.

 

The first thing you do is a risk assessment to determine the actual scope of the problem. This will involve a forensic and evidence based approach to discover evidence of a direct link between refugees and terrorists committing crimes in the US. Think of the claim "terrorists disguised as refugees are committing crimes in the US" in the same way as the claim "Saddam Hussein has WMDs". Do the opposite of what Bush did and you are halfway there. A proper risk assessment will inform the appropriate risk measures and controls which should be implemented to mitigate the risk. So where's the risk assessment?

In terms of the topic, people like twowolves are bit obsessed by this idea that "Islam" and "Muslims" are some kind of hive mind when it comes to intepreting what their religion actually means. People like this simply label 'Muslims' as either 'Radical' or 'Moderate' and that's about it. Whilst this thread is good for looking at the words in the Qur'an those words are pretty much meaningless without the filter with which the Qur'an is actually read and preached. Those filters can be labelled by the various 'schools' which comprise Islam. So when we are done quoting the words, we can move onto the more important task of looking at the schools of thought which actually give the words the meaning that Muslim people actually live by.

 

This is purely about creating fear. The President has created an "enemy", which he'll use to explain why the ports are in chaos.

 

Those would be the hadith, which is where much of the radical ideology is derived from, whether that was intended by the writers or not. The hadith are the words of mohammed, and are what is used to interpret the koran, right or wrong?

Starting a new thread so we can let Ghost have his thread back.

 

No those are just more words. Google "Islamic Schools of Thought" . You are really out of your depth here as are most people who form their opinions based upon the right wing lunatic fringe.

edit: here's the risk assessment - https://www.cato.org/publications/policy-analysis/terrorism-immigration-risk-analysis

The first page says: Including those murdered in the terrorist attacks of September 11, 2001 (9/11), the chance of an American perishing in a terrorist attack on U.S. soil that was committed by a foreigner over the 41-year period studied here is 1 in 3.6 million per year... the chance of an American being murdered in a terrorist attack caused by a refugee is 1 in 3.64 billion per year while the chance of being murdered in an attack committed by an illegal immigrant is an astronomical 1 in 10.9 billion per year.

 

twowolves, I had studied the background of Islam and all major religions in college, and I decided to go directly to the primary source of the Qu'ran as one of my Muslim friends suggested, and decided to read through it publically since I don't think there's many in the West who actually get around to reading the Qu'ran. I only made it to Chapter 4 before taking a break, partially because there wasn't as much discussion here as I hoped. If I even finish my reading of the Qu'ran anytime soon, I will move on to the hadiths. But the hadiths are not universally accepted by all Muslims, there are different collections and versions of them, they were written down generations after Mohammed, and they are still viewed as second to the Qu'ran. Also, I don't currently have a copy of them, but I do have a copy of the Qu'ran. It's not misleading. It's starting from basics. And if you read all my posts in this thread, I underline just how important and central the Qu'ran is to Islam, just as central as the Bible to most forms of Christianity. (I really do hope you read my posts in this thread, or read them soon.)

I'd advise you to unblock anyone you've blocked, and to listen or (as you yourself said) at least agree to disagree rather than shutting people out. Vivec lived in Pakistan. SuperWatto, as he said, is in Europe. Please try to have an open mind, but if you can't, I still urge you to listen to others to better understand where they're coming from even if you're not open to agreeing with them so you can have a better discussion with them.

This is not the thread to discuss geopolitics or Trump, I just thought recent events were a good reason to bump this thread. But I'd also urge you to not say the peaceful majority are irrelevant. Think of it this way... that's how those in Al Qaeda and ISIS justify their terrorist attacks against us. (And I don't believe in that "15-25% statistic on how many Muslims are terrorists," I'd like to see a source, because that would be over 250 Million terrorists and if there were that many then the news would look very different.) Also, Europe had many terrorist attacks before the current refugee crisis, and only a minority of the terrorist minority since the refugee crisis actually came as refugees from those countries. Everyone wants their country safe, everyone here is anti-terrorist, but there's far better ways (and we already were intensely vetting them, as has been pointed out). As for the historical examples... there's many cases of Christians slaughtering those who wouldn't convert, and there's many cases of Muslims being just rulers (though no ruler of any religion is perfect). Just like there have been cases of Muslims slaughtering others, and Christians being just rulers. No religion has a monopoly, because every religion is made up of flawed human beings. But these discussions are for another thread.

Here's a video I shared on the first page (link now broken there), a good PBS documentary on the rise of Islam based on what we know historically:


I really hope you get around to reading through this entire thread, twowolves . If you find things you disagree with it in my summarized background of Islam, or what I've found in the actual text of the Qu'ran so far, feel free to bring it up here. And remember, for Muslims, the Qu'ran is supposed to come before the hadiths, that's why I'm doing the Qu'ran first.

 

Ooh, if we're doing hadiths, my favorite is:
"The ink of the scholar is holier than the blood of the martyr."

Oh, or maybe this one:
"Religion is very easy and whoever overburdens himself in his religion will not be able to continue in that way. So you should not be extremists, but try to be near to perfection and receive the good tidings that you will be rewarded."

Actually, this one is kinda important too:
“Beware! Whoever is cruel and hard on a non-Muslim minority, or curtails their rights, or burdens them with more than they can bear, or takes anything from them against their free will; I (Prophet Muhammad) will complain against the person on the Day of Judgment.”

One myth propagated by Christian media in the west is that "extremism vs moderation" in the context of Islam are equal to "more religious vs less religious". This is useful to Christian Dominionists since it leads to the conclusion that suppressing extremism means suppressing Islamic practice and culture; but it couldn't be farther from the truth.
Daesh is as 'authentic' from a theological standpoint as prosperity gospel; they are both jaw-dropping, thinly justified perversions created by the powerful to take advantage of the desperate and under educated.

 

This is a little naive. You've had no direct contact with the vetting process on any asylum seekers, Even, so you cannot call it monstrous. There might be a hint in the name as to why it takes time.

 

@Revyl Ren

 

You can read the Qur'an here.

Hello all. I'm reading the Qur'an for the first time ever and so far enjoying it. Since I'm Turkish-American, I can only go by what I've read and heard from relatives and my father on such a matter. All I can say is this: this thread accepts both believers and nonbelievers and people of other faiths. So come along for the ride. I'm currently halfway through Surah 3 (Ali 'Imran) and checking with others that know the faith will on terminology, such as the terms "zakah" and "kursi."

I'm also currently reading the Bible (for the second time and hoping to finish it this time). If anyone can point me to a Bible study thread, that would be much appreciated. Also, if there is currently already a thread for Qur'an study, then please point me to it and the mods can close this thread if needed. Furthermore, let's all be mindful and respectful of the religion, whatever our feelings may be regarding it. Discussion is fine and all, but let's keep it civil and moral in character.

Take care, everyone. We have a lot of time on our hands with the pandemic, so let's make the most of it and learn about other topics. Thanks in advance.

 

I've got an English version of the Qur'an (or Koran as mine says) somewhere in my book collection. I'm not Islamic - I read it more out of curiosity. I'm more familiar with the Bible as I went to Catholic school.
News here (UK) has had items on Ramadan and the current lockdown period here, with people not being able to attend their mosque.

 

It's the same for my Catholic mother, though she's never been a "typical" Catholic, but I know that her Catholic relatives (my aunts and other extended family) can't just go to church any time soon. So it goes with people who are Muslim, though unfortunately I know that many people of both faiths have made the error of attending anyway.

I'm currently reading the Bible (again) right now. I also went to Catholic school, or rather, daycare. But truth be told, I was also more interested in Islam, even though I wouldn't call myself "Muslim." I definitely have the culture even if I don't identify as one.

 

My dad was heavy on Catholicism as he studied to be a priest for a bit before leaving to marry my mother. She converted from Protestantism for the marriage so she wasn't as hot on stuff like going to Mass on Sunday. She deferred to Dad on religious matters.

Edit - I don't think we have a Bible Study thread, but EWTN (Catholic televison) has a Facebook Bible Study group. If you're on FB you could check it out.

 

@Ghost made a thread for this

Understanding Islam and reading the Quran

He also made a thread for understanding Christianity if you're interested.